Jash

Moash, and the fans who hate him

233 posts in this topic

6 minutes ago, Jash said:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/second_degree_murder

Extreme Indifference to Human Life

The third main type of second-degree murder occurs when a victim dies as a result of the perpetrator's extreme indifference to the value of human life. Generally speaking, extreme indifference means an utter disregard of the possibility that an act will kill someone.

Going back to Adam and Bill, imagine that instead of hitting Bill over the head with a shovel, Adam grabs his gun and wildly fires toward a crowd of neighbors that have gathered to observe the argument between Adam and Bill. Adam didn't necessarily mean to kill anyone, but also didn't give any thought to the harm that his actions could cause to people in the crowd. This demonstrates Adam's extreme indifference to human life. If one of Adam's bullets struck and killed anyone in the crowd, then Adam has probably committed a murder in the second degree.

Definition of Second degree murder. Also, I tagged Cornell Law, which had a similar definition. 

That isn't negligence though.

Elhokar didn't run through their house with a shardblade, he locked them up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligent_homicide#:~:text=In the United States%2C all,of those more serious charges.

Edited by Frustration
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Okay, ya'll, you are not following my instructions to chill and relax. If you will not do so, the thread will be locked and individuals will be moderated. Be good.

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I don’t want to get moderated, so I’m not going to offer opinions, just help with the definitions.

First degree murder is a premeditated, intentional killing. If you stalk them for a while then kill them, or have plans on exactly how and why you will kill them, that is first degree. Serial killers fall under this category.

Second degree murder is when you don’t plan it, but it is intentional. When you are in an argument with someone, and then grab a gun and shoot them, that would qualify. It was very heat of the moment, not much consideration.

First degree murder is also called manslaughter. It isn’t intentional and it isn’t planned, but someone did die because of your actions. Some examples would be if you backed your car into someone, someone jumped in front of your car, you tripped and pushed them off a cliff (you may need some strong evidence to prove it wasn’t intentional), or even if you accidentally gave them something they were severely allergic to.

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All good Chinkoln, but let's try to get away from litigating crimes here when no one (to my knowledge) is a lawyer here. I don't think this tangent is super necessary.

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Moash allowed vengeance to drive him to attempted regicide, which I do not like. As good as his reasons are or understandable they may be, killing isn't the answer.

Moash redemption could be very interesting though! I kinda want it...

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Ok just adding something to my previous post because I forgot a line 

I meant he does hate Elhokar 

He just is using the excuse that he’s a bad king to act in that hatred 

Sorry for the misunderstanding 

While I do think Moash did a horrible thing he can be redeemed 

Because everyone can that wants to

 

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6 hours ago, Jash said:

 (A note for those who don't know. The Hobbits in Lord of Rings look more like what actual Anarchists want then like..The Purge, or whatever else popular media presents them as);

I always wondered if anyone else interpreted it that way. Still, I think that is a bit of a pipe dream and not something that's possible irl.

Will check out some of those other books you recced here, they sound interesting

21 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Ok just adding something to my previous post because I forgot a line 

I meant he does hate Elhokar 

He just is using the excuse that he’s a bad king to act in that hatred 

Sorry for the misunderstanding 

While I do think Moash did a horrible thing he can be redeemed 

Because everyone can that wants to

Ah, that makes sense

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1 hour ago, Knight of Iron said:

Moash allowed vengeance to drive him to attempted regicide, which I do not like. As good as his reasons are or understandable they may be, killing isn't the answer.

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I meant he does hate Elhokar 

He just is using the excuse that he’s a bad king to act in that hatred 

Agree with both of these. Something that strikes me about this thread is that it seems there are two separate debates going on, that often get mashed together. 

One is the question of whether regicide is morally justified in the political context of OB.

The other is whether vigilante murder is justified in the context of Moash’s personal circumstances.

I think these are different moral questions, since Moash’s motivation was entirely personal. He doesn’t care about the politics, the quality of Elhokar’s rule or the wider ramifications of killing a king, and he’s not associated with a political organisation at the time.

(Personal opinion: neither are justified, but I can still feel sympathy for Moash despite that and I can still root for him to get his act together and become a better version of himself.)

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1 hour ago, RedBlue said:

One is the question of whether regicide is morally justified in the political context of OB.

The other is whether vigilante murder is justified in the context of Moash’s personal circumstances.

I think these are different moral questions, since Moash’s motivation was entirely personal. He doesn’t care about the politics, the quality of Elhokar’s rule or the wider ramifications of killing a king, and he’s not associated with a political organisation at the time.

(Personal opinion: neither are justified, but I can still feel sympathy for Moash despite that and I can still root for him to get his act together and become a better version of himself.)

I agree they are two different arguments, going on but don't think the regicide one is relevant for the reason you give above.

However, I don't see how people say he wasn't justified, in my opinion, this is the very type of scenario which sparks revolutions, creates heros and martyrs, to say he was unjustified is to say, you have no right to defend yourself, you have no right to resist oppression, you have no right to, in a system designed to keep you and yours powerless, resist that very system. And when the ones in power turn there eye to your family, and eliminate them, you have no right to seek your own justice, when the laws, created by those same people, won't give you any. 

PS: this isn't a heated post, incase someone trys say it is.

PPS: in all samdersons books there is social inequalities, which to an extent mirrors or own, both now and throughout history, so to say shouldn't be talked about in parallel baffles me if I'm honest as I believe that is the very intent.

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7 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

However, I don't see how people say he wasn't justified, in my opinion, this is the very type of scenario which sparks revolutions, creates heros and martyrs, to say he was unjustified is to say, you have no right to defend yourself, you have no right to resist oppression, you have no right to, in a system designed to keep you and yours powerless, resist that very system. And when the ones in power turn there eye to your family, and eliminate them, you have no right to seek your own justice, when the laws, created by those same people, won't give you any. 

Moash was not resisting oppression when he killed Elhokar

He was already one of the most powerful men in the kingdom

He could have gone through other methods to change the system

And he did not even care if the system changed; he wanted Dalinar in someone who wouldn’t change any of the laws, by all available knowledge 

All he wanted was revenge

I keep on repeating myself because everyone keeps on making the same arguments 

 

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4 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Moash was not resisting oppression when he killed Elhokar

He was already one of the most powerful men in the kingdom

He could have gone through other methods to change the system

And he did not even care if the system changed; he wanted Dalinar in someone who wouldn’t change any of the laws, by all available knowledge 

All he wanted was revenge

I keep on repeating myself because everyone keeps on making the same arguments

I think I see what the issue is. It's this line: "He was already one of the most powerful men in the kingdom. He could have gone through other methods to change the system", which multiple posters here can argue they've already responded to multiple times. You can't really say the same thing to the same people again and again, and expect different results. And so the argument keeps coming back full circle.

Edited by Honorless
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8 hours ago, Honorless said:

I always wondered if anyone else interpreted it that way. Still, I think that is a bit of a pipe dream and not something that's possible irl.

You should read “The Dispossed” if you haven’t. It doesn’t treat Anarchism as a Utopia, but rather I think shows a semi realistic interpretation of how it could look in real life. It’s far from perfect, but to be quite honest, I still came away from the book wanting it. I do think an Anarchist society could exist in real life, as it…does. Most tribal societies look more like anarchy than capitalism. I, however, think in order for an advanced civilization to exist this way, there will need to be many steps in between, with some of the first steps being the very realization that we don’t have to live this way. We can have a society that’s main goal is the happiness for the majority of its citizens and not to make as much money as possible. I think new modes of government, perhaps even that we can’timagine, will start cropping up relatively soon (think next100 years). Capitalism has already failed, we just have yet to realize it. As we start having food shortages, climate change starts causing even more problems than now, and we have more disease outbreaks like corona, people are going to start realizing that capitalism does not properly respond to these kind of events, and in fact…causes them. As a history major, I sense we are on tbe brink of a major shift in our how our societies work, and the societies that survive to the next stage will be the ones that care about their citizens the most, not the more predatory ones. 

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5 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

And he did not even care if the system changed; he wanted Dalinar in someone who wouldn’t change any of the laws, by all available knowledge 

I think it was pretty obvious Dalinar did want to change things. He talks to Kaladin, and perhaps other members of Bridge 4, about that. He has, in our books, changed things, in fact. Even in his decision to make Moash a bodyguard to him or a King, that is a major upheaval of Alethi societal norms. 

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I am going to make a reply to no one in particular. I see a lot of people in this post claiming Moash’s actions were purely selfish and not an act at any societal upheaval. Maybe you are right, but I want to makethis clear. I disagree with you. I think he did want to change Alethi society and it wasn’t just revenge. How he acts toward the end of Oathbringer, only to me, seems to amplify that. Like, he acts like someone who has failed in a major way, depressed, giving up on humans completely. But at this point, he has killed Elhokar already. If he only did it to be selfish, why is he so depressed? Why does he feel so bad about himself? Why before was he still giving humans and Alethi society a chance and now he has given up? I think it was because he wrongly assumed, if he took out Elhokar and Dalinar was in charge, everything would magically get better. But it didn’t. And I also think he feels jealous of Kaladin. Part of him wants to be like Kaladin, but the other part thinks Kaladin is wrong for “forgiving light eyes”. Moash also does not have real power in Alethi society, or at leasthe doesn’t realize he does. He wante revenge, not just on Elhokar, but all light eyes. He, both from our PoV and from others, makes no attempts to make changes from within, probably because he doesn’t know he can. He isn’t a political genius. He is a caravan guard who found himself in over his head. And listen, I could be completely wrong, but this is my opinion. Those who think my opinion is wrong, feel free to disagree, but please use words like I did here : think, my opinion. You aren’t right about this anymore than I am right about it. We are simply interpreting the material in our own way. And lets be honest, as someone who lives in a society that is unjust, and a society I hate, I understand Moash. I also want to tear it all down. And perhaps I am just wrong, Moash just had a personal vendetta, and the reason he became darker after inacting it is because he has lost Bridge 4, who were the only people in the world who loved him, and he doesn’t know what else to do. All I know is no one is just “evil”, everyone is trying to do something that is right, from their own perspective. And I do believe Brandon Sanderson thinks tbatway too. I dont know where he will take the character, to darker places or lighter pnes, redemptive or destructive, but I do assumed at the least, the character will be nuanced and not just a heartless villain. Because no mattwr what, Moash cares about Kaladin and Bridge 4 (some part of him), he cared for the Singers he helped train in spears, he cared for his granparents. He may be blinded by rage, and revenge, but he isn’t a mindless robot, he is ultimately human. 

My final note, I doubt many of you have watched many Korean shows, however there is one I watched (and to give away no spoilers, I wont say its name here). In it there is a truly horrible dude who kills children. I vehemently hated him. He eventually dies in an awful way. After his death, his brother asks another character to have a funeral for him, and despite that other character hating the dead brother, she agrees. There was a deep nuance go this scene I often find missing from American media. The point I think was, although we shouldn’t have to love this awful child killer, someone did love him. Someone was disappointed in him. Someone wanted better for him. Someone cried when he died. We shouldn’t jsut hate him, we should also pity him. He was shaped by his society, trained to do awful things from a young age. Yes, he eventually made bad decisions, but he was set up to make them. East Asian media has a lot of this sort of nuance, the idea that most people aren’t tryly bad or evil. but misled by society, products of that society. Moash was stripped of literally everything. He was a slave. His family were all killed. He had nothing. You all say “Moash had power when he tried to kill Elhokar”, but the wounds of slavery and killing of your family members don’t just leave you. They will always stick with you. Moash, and the other members of Bridge 4, will always have issues from being left in Bridge 4 to die. It won’t go away. Moash may have had power, but he didn’t act like one who did. He didn’t know he did. So if you hate Moash, that is okay, but I ask one thing : Pity him too. 

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To everyone trying to justify Moash by saying he had good reason to kill Elhokar.

He also killed a homeless drunk because he was asked to.

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(Just a quick side note to try not to double post when you've posted recently, Jash :)

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

To everyone trying to justify Moash by saying he had good reason to kill Elhokar. He also killed a homeless drunk because he was asked to.

With the emotional state he was in and the information he had, I still find it difficult to hate him for that. I would personally say it is more morally wrong, I think. 

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Just now, AonEne said:

With the emotional state he was in and the information he had, I still find it difficult to hate him for that. I would personally say it is more morally wrong, I think. 

I mean that's my reaction, I feel nothing about it, but it's the most morally wrong thing he has done. 

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7 hours ago, RedBlue said:

Agree with both of these. Something that strikes me about this thread is that it seems there are two separate debates going on, that often get mashed together. 

One is the question of whether regicide is morally justified in the political context of OB.

The other is whether vigilante murder is justified in the context of Moash’s personal circumstances.

I think these are different moral questions, since Moash’s motivation was entirely personal. He doesn’t care about the politics, the quality of Elhokar’s rule or the wider ramifications of killing a king, and he’s not associated with a political organisation at the time.

(Personal opinion: neither are justified, but I can still feel sympathy for Moash despite that and I can still root for him to get his act together and become a better version of himself.)

You may be surprised by this, but I actually agree with you. I don't think we should kill those we have personal vendettas against. I actually think regicide could be justified, say..killiing Hitler. Killing Hitler seems like a moral good to me personally, however, I do think Moash should have listened to Kaladin and given other avenues a chance. I think I've been forced in this feed to defend actions I don't actually agree with personally, if only because my point here is that I understand Moash. I like to believe that if I had a friend like Kaladin (actually I do), that I would listen to him (I do. He is great at giving advice) and not go through with such a plan. I personally just think Graves (that was his name right) is not someone I would wnt to associate with. I personally would also realize I now had power, and try to change things from within. Talk to Dalinar, try to find ways I could help change the lighteye, darkeye structure of the society. My arguments have always been more like : I get Moash. I understand Moash, not that I am Moash and would do the same things that he did. I think there is a third question which you missed though : How does oppression shape the actions of individuals in a society? I think this is why I feel for and udnerstand Moash. Without that context, I guess I would hate him too. If Moash was born as 4th dahn, I don't think I would...understand him at all. I'd think he was petty and vindictive, and I'd find his betrayal of Kaladin (who in theis case is still a dark eyes) as impossible to understand. However, that isn't how Moash was born. His family was killed, and he was made a slave and left to die. I don't think I can read Moash's character wihtou keeping in mind how oppressive his society was and how unfair the things that happened to him were. Anways, one more thin. I also disagree. I think Moash does care about politics, he just doesn't know how to do anything about it. And of course, this is just my opinion, we don't get Moash's PoV tell AFTER the attempted regicide, so we don't really know what he was thinking. I think it is fine if you think that way, I just simply disagree. 

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5 minutes ago, Jash said:

Graves (that was his name right) 

Yep! 

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6 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Moash was not resisting oppression when he killed Elhokar

 

He was seeking justice for his family who as a result of the oppression of dark eyes were to all intents and purposes murdered through neglect. So yes he was resisting the yoke of oppression by getting the justice he could never otherwise of had.

 

6 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He was already one of the most powerful men in the kingdom

He could have gone through other methods to change the system

 

So you think Moash would of got justice for his grandparents by what ? Talking to Dalinar ? or Elhokar ? If that's what you believe how would got justice, what shape would it of taken ? An apology/excuse ?

By saying "he was already one of the most powerful men in the kingdom is 1 misleading because he wasnt and 2 was the means by which he was able to get justice for his grandparents.

6 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

 All he wanted was revenge

I keep on repeating myself because everyone keeps on making the same arguments 

 

Yes he wanted revenge, he wanted retribution for what was done to the only family he had.

In a system where he would never get justice unless he took matters into his own hands, he did just that. How many tv shows, films, books are based on this very concept where the character is lifted up as a hero ? Too many to even count, yet Moash gets vilified, - makes no sense.

The arguments why his vilified ?

Elhokar was trying to be better - irrelevant

Moash could of talked about it - are u serious ? Just because his position changed doesn't mean what was done changes, or how he feels or what he feels he has to do, to talk about it at this stage and accept whatever excuse/apology he recieved would be tantamount to being a coward.

Moash hated Elhokar and just wanted revenge - yes he rightly hated Elhokar and he gets revenge as a by product of getting justice for his grandparents. Revenge and justice are not mutually exclusive. 

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4 hours ago, Quick Ben said:

So you think Moash would of got justice for his grandparents by what ? Talking to Dalinar ? or Elhokar ? If that's what you believe how would got justice, what shape would it of taken ? An apology/excuse ?

By saying "he was already one of the most powerful men in the kingdom is 1 misleading because he wasnt and 2 was the means by which he was able to get justice for his grandparents.

He could have changed things in Althekar, like the systems of government 

Tgere are only like 100 shardbearears in Alethkar when you are one of those you are very powerful

6 hours ago, AonEne said:

With the emotional state he was in and the information he had, I still find it difficult to hate him for that. I would personally say it is more morally wrong, I think. 

I hate him for a different reason one that should be obvious but I can’t say

 

6 hours ago, Jash said:

I am going to make a reply to no one in particular. I see a lot of people in this post claiming Moash’s actions were purely selfish and not an act at any societal upheaval. Maybe you are right, but I want to makethis clear. I disagree with you. I think he did want to change Alethi society and it wasn’t just revenge. How he acts toward the end of Oathbringer, only to me, seems to amplify that. Like, he acts like someone who has failed in a major way, depressed, giving up on humans completely. But at this point, he has killed Elhokar already. If he only did it to be selfish, why is he so depressed? Why does he feel so bad about himself? Why before was he still giving humans and Alethi society a chance and now he has given up? I think it was because he wrongly assumed, if he took out Elhokar and Dalinar was in charge, everything would magically get better. But it didn’t. And I also think he feels jealous of Kaladin. Part of him wants to be like Kaladin, but the other part thinks Kaladin is wrong for “forgiving light eyes”. Moash also does not have real power in Alethi society, or at leasthe doesn’t realize he does. He wante revenge, not just on Elhokar, but all light eyes. He, both from our PoV and from others, makes no attempts to make changes from within, probably because he doesn’t know he can. He isn’t a political genius. He is a caravan guard who found himself in over his head. And listen, I could be completely wrong, but this is my opinion. Those who think my opinion is wrong, feel free to disagree, but please use words like I did here : think, my opinion. You aren’t right about this anymore than I am right about it. We are simply interpreting the material in our own way. And lets be honest, as someone who lives in a society that is unjust, and a society I hate, I understand Moash. I also want to tear it all down. And perhaps I am just wrong, Moash just had a personal vendetta, and the reason he became darker after inacting it is because he has lost Bridge 4, who were the only people in the world who loved him, and he doesn’t know what else to do. All I know is no one is just “evil”, everyone is trying to do something that is right, from their own perspective. And I do believe Brandon Sanderson thinks tbatway too. I dont know where he will take the character, to darker places or lighter pnes, redemptive or destructive, but I do assumed at the least, the character will be nuanced and not just a heartless villain. Because no mattwr what, Moash cares about Kaladin and Bridge 4 (some part of him), he cared for the Singers he helped train in spears, he cared for his granparents. He may be blinded by rage, and revenge, but he isn’t a mindless robot, he is ultimately human. 

My final note, I doubt many of you have watched many Korean shows, however there is one I watched (and to give away no spoilers, I wont say its name here). In it there is a truly horrible dude who kills children. I vehemently hated him. He eventually dies in an awful way. After his death, his brother asks another character to have a funeral for him, and despite that other character hating the dead brother, she agrees. There was a deep nuance go this scene I often find missing from American media. The point I think was, although we shouldn’t have to love this awful child killer, someone did love him. Someone was disappointed in him. Someone wanted better for him. Someone cried when he died. We shouldn’t jsut hate him, we should also pity him. He was shaped by his society, trained to do awful things from a young age. Yes, he eventually made bad decisions, but he was set up to make them. East Asian media has a lot of this sort of nuance, the idea that most people aren’t tryly bad or evil. but misled by society, products of that society. Moash was stripped of literally everything. He was a slave. His family were all killed. He had nothing. You all say “Moash had power when he tried to kill Elhokar”, but the wounds of slavery and killing of your family members don’t just leave you. They will always stick with you. Moash, and the other members of Bridge 4, will always have issues from being left in Bridge 4 to die. It won’t go away. Moash may have had power, but he didn’t act like one who did. He didn’t know he did. So if you hate Moash, that is okay, but I ask one thing : Pity him too. 

Just going to relay something 

I don’t think Moash is a purely evil person

He obviously loves his captain and respects him

Im just giving my reasons of why I don’t like to and I can’t full do that in an Non-RoW thread

4 hours ago, Quick Ben said:

In a system where he would never get justice unless he took matters into his own hands, he did just that.

Why is it justice to kill Elhokar?

what did it change?

Did it make him feel better did it give him closure?

No, he went off the deepend

Revenge killing is not justice 

By killing Elhokar he actually removes any chance of getting true justice, which is stopping this from happening to anyone else

I personally believe that killing helps nothing and is petty and bad, but that’s my opinion 

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33 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I don’t think Moash is a purely evil person

He obviously loves his captain and respects him

Im just giving my reasons of why I don’t like to and I can’t full do that in an Non-RoW thread

That makes sense. I suppose when I finish the next book, I'm going to have to return to this sight, and re-write the topic in the non-row section haha. Is there a way I can like tag everyone over there and you can all tell me your real reasons hahaha. 

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6 hours ago, Frustration said:

To everyone trying to justify Moash by saying he had good reason to kill Elhokar.

He also killed a homeless drunk because he was asked to.

He also whacked (kicked?) a kid if I remember correctly.

Edited by Knight of Iron
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2 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Tgere are only like 100 shardbearears in Alethkar when you are one of those you are very powerful

Closer to 25

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I'm surprised that the kick thing comes up that often tbh, it came up in the Moash thread I created as well. I read it as him shoving Gavinor away with his foot. Regardless, he literally speared his father's face twice right in front of him, so why does the kick supersede something like that in the minds of so many readers?

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