Moash, and the fans who hate him

[Frustration]

24 minutes ago, Chinkoln said:

I would first like to say, I understand where you are coming from and why you believe this.

I don’t think that someone loving God, and you not, can destroy a relationship. I’ve heard people say this before, but I actually think that any relationship with God involved is an equilateral triangle. If you get closer to God, then you must also get closer to your significant other.

Yes, religion has been used by humans to justify their wrong doings. So has science and innovation. I think that most often when religion is used to justify wrongdoing, it is when you focus on a single part of doctrine or when you think that you are better than everyone else. As long as people think about the whole picture and remember that everyone is equal, people don’t die (I think. I haven’t majored in history, so this is just my rudimentary knowledge). 

You are mostly correct.

There are some religons that called for human sacrafice, but that's not what you meant.

[Chinkoln]

26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You are mostly correct.

There are some religons that called for human sacrafice, but that's not what you meant.

I consider those to be more of cults, though the Aztecs and Mayans did have actual religion which called for human sacrifice.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Chinkoln said:

I consider those to be more of cults, though the Aztecs and Mayans did have actual religion which called for human sacrifice.

I was refering to Aztecs, Carthage to.

[Pathfinder]

10 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

What difference does it make? Practically none.

Religion was the embassy of culture same thing however you want to phrase it.

Im not asking you to believe anything, I couldn’t care less if you did. We’re not arguing whether religion was true

Im saying that at the heart of every culture a religion ( who 99% were wrong) and they imbued moral values

So as you are going on a trip and will not be able to reply for awhile, this is more to further discussion and understanding. I believe the point he or she is trying to make, or at least I am in this case, is there is a difference between correlation and causation. Humans at a primitive state in their evolution (not saying believing in religion makes you primitive, I am merely referencing the time period), lack the advancements we do today to learn about their environment. Therefore in an effort to explain the (at that time) unexplainable, supernatural forces were reasoned to be the source. That is how you got such explanations for a echo in a cave being the spirit of a depressed nymph named Echo pining over Narcesses death. She loved him, but was cursed to only repeat what was last said to her. He died from staring into his reflection for too long. So she went to a cave, despondent and died, her sprit ever repeating back what was last said. Hence the echo. Zeus was said to smite the unbelievers and heretics with his mighty bolt of lightning. 

To Echo, the response became, well were there thousands of Echos that did the same exact thing, so every cave that has an echo, has a dead nymph repeating back? Or are all caves linked up to that one master cave, so her voice carries throughout them all? If three people all say different things in three different cave locations, how does she choose which one to echo? Science showed the true cause of the echo.

To Zeus, the response (by Socrates himself mind you), became, well what happens when a tree is struck by lightning? Was the tree a heretic? What had it done by growing there to so earn the ire of the sky god? If a person ran around calling Zeus all number of horrible words on a clear sunny day, does that mean that person is more powerful than Zeus? Science showed us the true cause of lightning strikes. 

So if religion started in all these cultures to codify morals, then why is a tree immoral to Zeus? The point I believe that was trying to be made is religion arose from the need to explain the unexplainable. As society grew and evolved, it developed morals. Two developing concepts that occurred for different source reasons. Just because they were coterminous and developed along side each other, does not mean one caused the other. They each had their own individual impetuses. 

To better explain the difference between correlation and causation. Let us say last week it was sunny all days except Tuesday and Thursday. Tuesday and Thursday it rained. This week it is sunny all days except Tuesday and Thursday. I then conclude it only rains on days beginning with T. An individual wants to change the names of the days of the week for whatever reason and I realize that there are no days with the letter T starting them. Well plants need water to grow. We will end up with a drought! No days with a T means no rain!.

That is correlation. I noticed something tended to happen with another occurrence. But that does not indicate one caused the other. We know scientifically temperature shifts are what causes weather and rain. That is causation. So just because all cultures, in an effort to explain what was at that time unexplainable with the supernatural, does not mean a culture requires religion to develop morals. If the developing culture had the tools and capabilities to understand the world around them, they would not need to prescribe supernatural reasons for the function and could theoretically develop without any need for religion. 

 

edit:

here is another way to put it:

All cats are mammals, but not all mammals are cats

All developing primitive societies with codified morals had religion, but developing primitive societies did not need religion to codify morals

Quote

And why do dolphins have morals? They don’t. They have no concept of doing what’s right because it’s right. They do it because of some reason that I don’t know but prove to me they do have morals

Both myself and he or she showed evidence of animals exhibiting morals. Taking actions without any training or personal benefit to the individual to help or aid another is a common one. There are many others. In many belief systems, animals lack souls, and thereby cannot have morals. That only humans are supremely unique and special, chosen specifically by that deity to be such. 

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Pathfinder

[Jash]

On 6/29/2021 at 10:05 PM, Chinkoln said:

I don’t think that someone loving God, and you not, can destroy a relationship. I’ve heard people say this before, but I actually think that any relationship with God involved is an equilateral triangle. If you get closer to God, then you must also get closer to your significant other.

I cannot speak for @Honorless, but...I can speak for myself. Yes, it can. Honorless, I'm assuming, like myself is not saying that they are the ones who ruined the relationship (probably). The religious person was. I grew up in a deeply religious place. There are so so so many reason religious people stop talking to ...well everyone, anyone they see as not living up to their standards of being "religious" enough. (let's be honest, the word I'm actually wanting to say is "Christian" enough, but I assume it is similar in other monotheistic religious communities).

Saying you think it can't ruin relationships is again..thinking of only your own experience. Actually, if we can be quite candid here, I thought just like you when I was around 17. I defended religion all. the. time. My church was a safe haven for me, one that spread love. I still in fact, respect my dad's church..and amazingly they would still accept me with open arms even if I screamed I was an agnostic in the middle of the service. But...my dad's church is a strange outlier, and not the rule I thought it was.

Many of my high school, and later university friends, belonged to other churches, particularly one protestant sect (I am not going to say what church it is to avoid offending people); and those "friends" (many are no longer in my life) were judgemental..to everyone, about everything. They also seemed to think they were better than everyone else for going to this one random church. The first time I got called "not really Christian" because...my church...didn't hate gay people, was a shocker me (I was really in a bubble). And if I went outside of my "friends" to other members of their church (I was invited by them, and foolishly went with them thinking I'd have fun like I did at my church youth events, oh...boy, was I not ready for those events), were just hateful awful people. Some of the worst people I've ever met or seen, all claiming they wanted to spread Jesus's love while they told us all how we were all going to hell. And as I branched out post University, and tried new churches (I live in Seoul, so I looked at several churches here) I realized...over and over again, that my dad's church was some extremely rare exception. Hate, hate, and judgement, that is what I found at every church. I had one extremely religious friend when I first moved to Korea. Our friendship finally ended when we had a huge blowout fight over whether gay people could go to heaven or not. I think after that, I was just done. I made the move to agnosticism/deism, as I'd never really believed in the miracle/supernatural part of religion anyways, and I distanced myself from Christianity...because they did not represent what I believed and they did represent what I wanted to spread in the world. However, they were the ones who pushed me away. Not me. My relationships were not ruined by my actions. I tried hard, especially when I was younger to understand these people. To convince them to "turn to Jesus" and spread love, not hate, bigotry, and judgement...but I failed. Repeatedly.

So yes, religion can destroy relationships. Simply say to people like the above, "I think Jesus would love queer people more than he would love people who hate queer people" and watch them lose their minds. 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Jash

[Chinkoln]

I understand how horrifying and scarring that would be. I also would like to say, that just as you said at the beginning that it is me speaking from personal experience, this is also your personal experience. Everyone is different, but I am appalled that someone would be that blatantly rude and think themselves better than you in such a way. I guess each religion is different, and location does change the perception of people.

Where I live, I’ve only ever known 1 person to be like that, riding religion like it is the only moral code in the world and if you don’t follow them precisely then you will be cursed for eternity. Everyone else I have known is either very accepting and open to other beliefs, or at least has enough tact to remain a kind and friendly person to you. I am sorry for what has been done to you, and I understand what you are saying, and I do agree that, in situations like that, religion could push people away instead of bringing them closer.

My personal beliefs to all the stuff you listed above are like this. I believe that God gave us eternal identities that are either male or female, so I’m not LGBTQ+ or anything like that, but I support you if you are. I will be a supportive friend and stay connected with you. I’m not going to go to rallies and promote it in people, but I’m not going to put you down or belittle you. If you do drugs, I will try to help you move away from that because it is harmful to your body and can become addictive, but I’m not going to cast you to the wolves. Sex outside of marriage? I personally am not going to, but if you do then I can’t judge you for that. God gave us agency, the power to choose for ourselves. Depending on your personality I may spend less time with you and not go with you into certain situations, but only because I know about people who had similar values as I do, but they got tempted and succumbed when placed in the right circumstances. These are the values that I operate under, but I understand how interacting with religious people that hold different values would be demeaning and lead to strong feelings against religion

[Jash]

@Chinkoln Hmm I am thinking of how to respond to you carefully and respectfully. I guess at best, I just have to say : I would never be friends with someone not willing to come to pride, or who thought that my gender expression or sexuality “didn’t really exist”. Like first of all, I have a community that exists and loves me as I am, so why settle for one that does not. And second of all, if I wanted to be Christian still, I have a church that would accept me as I am and love. My own father constantly tries to get me to return to church by attempting to introduce me to LGBT members of the church or mentioning all the outreach the church does in the queer community. I appreciate your sentiment, but do not need it. I still have many christian friends, but they are people who are members of my ex church, and a few others (mostly catholic) who don’t judge others and very warm, accepting, and loving to all people (and respect and …believe in (such a low bar) their gender expression and sexuality). I am a happy person Chinkoln, and much happier since leaving Christianity. 

[Honorless]

10 hours ago, Chinkoln said:

I guess each religion is different, and location does change the perception of people.

This a problem that exists in every religion and region, not inherent or endemic to certain ones. Not saying that certain problems aren't or at least exaggerated by these factors because they definitely are but let's not erase the difficulties faced by people leaving your religion & denomination, living in western countries because we know that's a thing, and they talk about these things.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Honorless