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Champion’s Duel


Bejarden

Champion  

89 members have voted

  1. 1. Who do you think Odiums Champion will be

    • Moash
      9
    • Szeth
      4
    • El
      22
    • Ishar
      3
    • Taln
      1
    • Gavilar
      11
    • Cultivation
      0
    • Gavinor
      15
    • Any Child
      7
    • Any Radiant
      0
    • Any Fused
      1
    • Taravangian
      2
    • Other
      14


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kadash

what if the odium champion would be kadash?

kadash is an old elite soldier

jasnah wants to free the slaves so the ardent would be free

kadash and dalinar have clashed before and are not at all religiously aligned

to face kadash for dalinar it would be to break these oaths he would divide the men 

considering the influence of the vorin church

todium could easily influence kadash by passing himself off as honnor given the passion he possesses

What do you think ?

 

sorry for my bad english...

Edited by majin63
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4 hours ago, majin63 said:

 


kadash

what if the odium champion would be kadash?

kadash is an old elite soldier

jasnah wants to free the slaves so the ardent would be free

kadash and dalinar have clashed before and are not at all religiously aligned

to face kadash for dalinar it would be to break these oaths he would divide the men 

considering the influence of the vorin church

todium could easily influence kadash by passing himself off as honnor given the passion he possesses

What do you think ?

 

sorry for my bad english...

No problem and welcome!

I'm not sure Kadash would be a good fit either. It feels like a Catholic Bishop deciding to become a Satanist for a day because his best friend is Martin Luther and plans on starting the Protestant Church - it's an overreaction. 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

After doing a full cosmere reread I am stuck on the idea of Adolin healing Maya for the champions duel. It's completely in character for him. He took on all the duels in WoR. He took on the trial alone at Lasting Integrity. And I mean he kind of started the awakening process for a dead-eye. I'm pretty sure BS said the ending of the 1st 1/2 is foreshadowed within the 1st 2 books. In WoR Dalinar says something along the lines of needing to step back and be the politician and let Adolin be the sword. He also said "we are fighting for the shards themselves"  that could be a huge hint. Then imagine what it would do to Dalinar if Adolin lost. He may very well be willing to give TOdium his pain at that point. Lots of ways it could go. But definitely want Adolin and Maya to play a big role. 

 

As far as Odiums champion it would have to be a fused or someone Taravangian knew. That's a lot of people but how many did he know very well that could meet the qualifications? Shallan has some pain to rid herself of. That at least seemed the big deal with Rayse is he would take away your emotions. Guess that doesn't have to hold true with everyone. I don't think it's El but I think El collecting the soul of The Defeated One could play a big part in some way. Something akin to hemalurgy. I also don't think it's Moash but I have a feeling he will try to kill Syl. 

 

Side note - think Renarin will play a big part 1 way or the other. 

Would be really cool of somehow Szeth ascended to the 5th ideal in ti.e and had Szeth vs Nale as "The Law vs The Law" for the fate of Roshar. (Don't think this will happen, at least not in the Champions Duel.)

Edited by Psykopathic
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4 hours ago, Psykopathic said:

After doing a full cosmere reread I am stuck on the idea of Adolin healing Maya for the champions duel. It's completely in character for him. He took on all the duels in WoR. He took on the trial alone at Lasting Integrity. And I mean he kind of started the awakening process for a dead-eye. I'm pretty sure BS said the ending of the 1st 1/2 is foreshadowed within the 1st 2 books. In WoR Dalinar says something along the lines of needing to step back and be the politician and let Adolin be the sword. He also said "we are fighting for the shards themselves"  that could be a huge hint. Then imagine what it would do to Dalinar if Adolin lost. He may very well be willing to give TOdium his pain at that point. Lots of ways it could go. But definitely want Adolin and Maya to play a big role. 

 

As far as Odiums champion it would have to be a fused or someone Taravangian knew. That's a lot of people but how many did he know very well that could meet the qualifications? Shallan has some pain to rid herself of. That at least seemed the big deal with Rayse is he would take away your emotions. Guess that doesn't have to hold true with everyone. I don't think it's El but I think El collecting the soul of The Defeated One could play a big part in some way. Something akin to hemalurgy. I also don't think it's Moash but I have a feeling he will try to kill Syl. 

 

Side note - think Renarin will play a big part 1 way or the other. 

Would be really cool of somehow Szeth ascended to the 5th ideal in ti.e and had Szeth vs Nale as "The Law vs The Law" for the fate of Roshar. (Don't think this will happen, at least not in the Champions Duel.)

Interesting! I always thought that Shallan and Adolin's mission would lead to Adolin leading a "second army" of Spren to whatever battlefield needs it, igniting a wave of new Radiants that change the tides. But him as Honor's Champion would certainly be a solid twist!

 

As for Szeth and Nale's interactions...I do think the two will come to blows of a sort in Book 5, but I don't think they'll fight as Champions or anything like that. Nale is only siding with Odium because the Singers sided with Odium. Once he gets word that some of Venli's group and whatnot, I'm pretty sure he'd choose to protect them instead of partaking in any of the battles. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello, this is my first post in the forum and I was looking to discuss the following idea regarding the contest. In the Dawnshard book, Cord challenges the Sleepless to a fight, then states that she automatically wins for the following reason: they cannot harm her because she is descendant from a protected family line due to a pact with some gods. Her argument does not work then and there, because the Sleepless had not made such a pact with her family, and then she says that it must be some other gods. This is a huge unused argument to be dropped like this by BS for no reason. It could become relevant only regarding Rock’s family in Book 5, but what if this is to foreshadow how the contest of champions is going to go? Especially since another unused so far information is that Odium has been bound not to harm anyone born in Kharbranth or their families. So if Dalinar chooses such a person for a champion (maybe Kaladin falls in this category), then this person would automatically win, no? Or if Odium kills such a person unknowingly, then the repercussions of such an action might be disastrous for him.

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I'd like to say Gavinor, no hard proof but more of a gut feeling. In RoW there was a bunch of lines where Brandon specifically pointed out Gavinor dealing with trauma. The sleeping with a sword and sleeping when other children would like to stay up. The comments avenging. The obvious take from this is that Gavinor watched his mother get corrupted then die followed up immediately by his father being murdered and he's experiencing/processing that trauma. 

BUT. From a narrative and thematic perspective, I could see Brandon also using this as foreshadowing of Tar Tar corrupting Gavinor against Dalinar and using him in the duel. "Dailnar was the one that sent your father on that mission"(twisting the truth like all great manipulators) "This is how Dalinar pushed your father to the side" "If Dailnar didn't force your father to question his courage, he may still be alive" "Dalinar is powerful, why didn't he go with and save your father?" etc etc. 

Only way I can see Tar Tar and Gavinor in having face time is in interludes. If that ends up being the case, I don't know how Brandon will write in a way that it's not blatantly obvious that Tar Tar is angling for Gavinor as champion. Because I feel that twist is something Brandon would like to save for the Bravalanche. 

Annnnnd by the end of typing this I'm even less certain it'll be Gav. Idk, man. Only thing I'm positive on is that it's not going to be anyone strictly of a marshal nature. Tar will want to mess with Dalinar's mental. 

Edited by Kered
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12 hours ago, Kered said:

I'd like to say Gavinor, no hard proof but more of a gut feeling. In RoW there was a bunch of lines where Brandon specifically pointed out Gavinor dealing with trauma. The sleeping with a sword and sleeping when other children would like to stay up. The comments avenging. The obvious take from this is that Gavinor watched his mother get corrupted then die followed up immediately by his father being murdered and he's experiencing/processing that trauma. 

BUT. From a narrative and thematic perspective, I could see Brandon also using this as foreshadowing of Tar Tar corrupting Gavinor against Dalinar and using him in the duel. "Dailnar was the one that sent your father on that mission"(twisting the truth like all great manipulators) "This is how Dalinar pushed your father to the side" "If Dailnar didn't force your father to question his courage, he may still be alive" "Dalinar is powerful, why didn't he go with and save your father?" etc etc. 

Only way I can see Tar Tar and Gavinor in having face time is in interludes. If that ends up being the case, I don't know how Brandon will write in a way that it's not blatantly obvious that Tar Tar is angling for Gavinor as champion. Because I feel that twist is something Brandon would like to save for the Bravalanche. 

Annnnnd by the end of typing this I'm even less certain it'll be Gav. Idk, man. Only thing I'm positive on is that it's not going to be anyone strictly of a marshal nature. Tar will want to mess with Dalinar's mental. 

I think Brandon could show the "after" scene of Tarvangian tempting and corrupting Gavinor. In The Wheel of Time, there's an antagonist  whose machinations we only see in the prologues and epilogues, right up until the final book. Maybe it can be something like that?

In terms of manipulation, I propose that Taravangian would prey on Gavinor's desire to be a warrior, hero, and king. I think it'd be more of "I'm a friend of your grandfather, and I'm stuck in a bad place. Can you be my hero? Can you be my champion? You can get your kingdom back if you do...and what's more, I'll give you the man who killed your father. You can have your revenge."

In terms of narrative and thematic perspective, I think it works out brilliantly, especially when considering that Book 5 was originally Dalinar's book. 

Dalinar's flashbacks - Dalinar's moments with Tanlan and the Rift - would be paralleled with the actions in the present. In the past, Dalinar would have his life torn asunder because he spared a child. Now, the world may be subject to the same fate if he acts in the same way again. In the past, we would be reviled by what we think of Dalinar's action of murdering a child, and relieved to find out that he didn't. But in the present, we as fans may be rooting for it, because we know how bad things will be if Odium is free in any capacity. (Showing our own moral flexibility.)

For Gavinor, I think this would be a great plot point for the second half of the books, if he lives. I think Gavinor, formerly Odium's Champion, and now a free man, hunting down Vyre for killing his father would be great. Along the way, Gavinor would find out that he as a child did the exact same thing that Moash did in giving up his pain and potential happiness for revenge, and now is something of a former shell of himself. This epiphany would cause Gavinor to forgive Moash - to truly forgive Moash - and turn his back on revenge, again setting them both on different yet redemptive paths. 

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On 09/07/2021 at 8:46 AM, Master Silver said:

I think a Fused child, so not any child. But put a fused child in dull for and have them look at Dalinar with their big brown eyes. That would fulfill the death rattle right? It would also ensure a willing champion

Which death rattle?

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On 11.08.2021 at 9:38 PM, Use the Falchion said:

For Gavinor, I think this would be a great plot point for the second half of the books, if he lives. I think Gavinor, formerly Odium's Champion, and now a free man, hunting down Vyre for killing his father would be great. Along the way, Gavinor would find out that he as a child did the exact same thing that Moash did in giving up his pain and potential happiness for revenge, and now is something of a former shell of himself. This epiphany would cause Gavinor to forgive Moash - to truly forgive Moash - and turn his back on revenge, again setting them both on different yet redemptive paths. 

I'm still not fan of Gavinor Champion theory, due few reasons:

1. Gavinor loves his family and hates Team Odium. He will not fight against Grandpa.

2. Gavinor simply is not a threat for Dalinar. All Dalinar need to do is stick him to the ground and wait.

3. Ten Days is too little time to influence someone, even child, to completly change sides. And Todium is not Connected to Gavinor, has no way to influence him.

ButI can see Gavinor manipulated by TOdium in other way. Brandon had a reason to show us how Gavinor hates Moash. What if TOdium would be able to trick Gavinor not to be his Champion, but to ATTACK his Champion instead? This would count as breaking terms of contract and automaticly gives Todium win. This is much easier to do, ad also will set Gavinor on interesting path in back5.

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19 minutes ago, Theldragor said:

Ok, I haven't read RoW for a little bit, and I'm too lazy to wait through Oathbringer to find out who he is again, so can someone please tell me who El is?

Its the Fused who permakilled Defeated One. Has strange habit to replace parts of his carapce with metal. Is fascinated with humans. Scribes "Musings of El" and even Ketek.

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1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

Its the Fused who permakilled Defeated One. Has strange habit to replace parts of his carapce with metal. Is fascinated with humans. Scribes "Musings of El" and even Ketek.

Yeah, i still don't know

Guess I'll find him when i read RoW lmfao

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7 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

1. Gavinor loves his family and hates Team Odium. He will not fight against Grandpa.

Assuming he even believes he has to fight his Grandpa. If Odium predicts that Dalinar would rather kill himself than kill Gavinor, than he can accurately and truthfully tell Gavinor that he wouldn't have to fight anyone. Because why would Todium appear as Odium to Gavinor, or even state his side is evil? Isn't it more likely that he'd come to Gavinor with the kindly, grandfather facade he cultivated (hah) when he was alive? Sort of like the facade Rayse had when he first visited Dalinar, but with even more control?

 

 

7 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

2. Gavinor simply is not a threat for Dalinar. All Dalinar need to do is stick him to the ground and wait.

The battle is to the death, and sticking Gavinor to the ground and having him die of starvation or dehydration (aka thirst) is a FAR worse and FAR more sadistic fate. Even at his worst, Dalinar wasn't sadistic. 

And I get that the main point you're probably trying to make is that Gavinor doesn't stand a physical threat to Dalinar, but the physical fight isn't the only component to this duel, something Dalinar himself noted. Gavinor would represent the ultimate innocence to Dalinar, along with his own mistakes and actions.

 

7 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

3. Ten Days is too little time to influence someone, even child, to completly change sides. And Todium is not Connected to Gavinor, has no way to influence him.

Assuming one views it as a change of sides in the first place. The only things Todium has to convince Gavinor of is that:

1) This will help Alethi and Alethkar

2) This will help end his Grandfather's war (and that they can be together afterwards, since, you know, Odium would rule Alethkar probably with Gavinor present, and Dalinar's sould would belong to Odium anyways).

Add in a promise for revenge, and you've got a sweet deal for any 5-6 year old boy in Gavinor's shoes. Remember, the Champion must be willing, but no one said anything about fully comprehending of the moral complexity of the situation. That's what makes the Gavinor theory far more heinous and far more evil IMO.

Rodium wasn't really Connected to Kaladin, but found a way to influence our lead Windrunner via his Connection with Moash/Vyre. And we know that Odium is very Connected to Dalinar, who is easily more Connected to Gavinor than Moash/Vyre was to Kaladin. Not to mention that Gavinor went through a lot of traumatic stuff at a young age, and it's not impossible to think that he may have some Spiritual Web cracks that can be pried open. (Not unlike Vin's mother or Zane.)

 

8 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

ButI can see Gavinor manipulated by TOdium in other way. Brandon had a reason to show us how Gavinor hates Moash. What if TOdium would be able to trick Gavinor not to be his Champion, but to ATTACK his Champion instead? This would count as breaking terms of contract and automaticly gives Todium win. This is much easier to do, ad also will set Gavinor on interesting path in back5.

Interesting! I honestly hadn't thought of that, and I like the implications. But that would mean that Todium has a way to influence Gavinor to do something - the exact point against my argument you made earlier. It would also mean that Todium was risking a LOT on Gavinor's reaction and access to his own Champion. If Gavinor doesn't reaction like Todium wants, then Todium's plan fails. Wouldn't it be better to manipulate the morality of the morally just instead of relying on the hatred of one child? (Although your plan does sound like something Rayse would indeed do.)

 

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On 21.08.2021 at 0:39 AM, Use the Falchion said:

Interesting! I honestly hadn't thought of that, and I like the implications. But that would mean that Todium has a way to influence Gavinor to do something - the exact point against my argument you made earlier. It would also mean that Todium was risking a LOT on Gavinor's reaction and access to his own Champion. If Gavinor doesn't reaction like Todium wants, then Todium's plan fails. Wouldn't it be better to manipulate the morality of the morally just instead of relying on the hatred of one child? (Although your plan does sound like something Rayse would indeed do.)

 

To make this real, TOdium needs to only Riot Gavinor's emotions 2 times - once before Duel, to make him so interested with Duel so he will be near, watching, and second, during Duel. And Gavinor need only hit Odium's Champion and make him bleed. Easy stuff. No need for any Connections, no need for earlier influence.

But with Gavinor as Champion Odium risks much more - if Gavinor tell Dalinar or Navani: "There is wierd old Man in my dreams every night and talks to me" Dalinar would immedietly know what's going on, and Gavinor would be sent to Thailenah with 20 Windrunners as Guardians. Bye bye, Champion.

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23 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

But with Gavinor as Champion Odium risks much more - if Gavinor tell Dalinar or Navani: "There is wierd old Man in my dreams every night and talks to me"

They would still think it's Rayse, not Taravangian. Not to mention that Gavinor has nightmares. Who's to say that Dalinar or Navani wouldn't just say "they're just bad dreams. Go back to sleep and we'll be here in the morning," to Gavinor. The child is traumatized, and any dreams mentioned would more likely be a reflection of the trauma in their minds than active manipulation. 

Dalinar is more likely to think along the lines of other members, and think that he'll be fighting some great enemy or ancient enemy, or someone more like him than not. Any mention of dreams won't set anything off because it wouldn't fit with Rayse's M.O. (Dalinar first thought Amaram was going to be his Champion, but then it was supposed to be Dalinar himself. Both are/were great fighters and leaders. Next on the list was Kaladin, another great fighter and leader and paragon.) It'd instead match with Gavinor's trauma. 

 

23 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Dalinar would immedietly know what's going on, and Gavinor would be sent to Thailenah with 20 Windrunners as Guardians. Bye bye, Champion.

And if Gavinor still agrees to be the Champion, Dalinar would be obligated to bring Gavinor back, lest Dalinar break the rules by not allowing Odium's Champion free and safe passage on the day of the Duel. 

 

23 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

To make this real, TOdium needs to only Riot Gavinor's emotions 2 times - once before Duel, to make him so interested with Duel so he will be near, watching, and second, during Duel. And Gavinor need only hit Odium's Champion and make him bleed. Easy stuff. No need for any Connections, no need for earlier influence.

Why would Dalinar allow Gavinor anywhere near the duel on the day of? Or even tell Gavinor anything about it? And can TOdium actually Riot people? His main emotion-manipulator is locked at the bottom of the sea, and none of the other Unmade seem to have that power. Nor do any of the Shards, from what I can remember. 

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On 23.08.2021 at 1:34 AM, Use the Falchion said:

They would still think it's Rayse, not Taravangian. Not to mention that Gavinor has nightmares. Who's to say that Dalinar or Navani wouldn't just say "they're just bad dreams. Go back to sleep and we'll be here in the morning," to Gavinor. The child is traumatized, and any dreams mentioned would more likely be a reflection of the trauma in their minds than active manipulation. 

Dalinar is more likely to think along the lines of other members, and think that he'll be fighting some great enemy or ancient enemy, or someone more like him than not. Any mention of dreams won't set anything off because it wouldn't fit with Rayse's M.O. (Dalinar first thought Amaram was going to be his Champion, but then it was supposed to be Dalinar himself. Both are/were great fighters and leaders. Next on the list was Kaladin, another great fighter and leader and paragon.) It'd instead match with Gavinor's trauma. 

Dalinar has experience with visions, and talking with gods in it. He will be able recognise this. And that was Raise, not Taravangian.

 

On 23.08.2021 at 1:34 AM, Use the Falchion said:

And if Gavinor still agrees to be the Champion, Dalinar would be obligated to bring Gavinor back, lest Dalinar break the rules by not allowing Odium's Champion free and safe passage on the day of the Duel. 

Nothing in contract obligate Dalinar to this. CHampion mus be "Unharmed" but nothing is about helping him reach Urithiru. It is Odium Champion? So let Odium find him and bring him. This is also another problem with champion from "other side", and child especially - he can be taken away and be in place beyond our controll.

On 23.08.2021 at 1:34 AM, Use the Falchion said:

Why would Dalinar allow Gavinor anywhere near the duel on the day of? Or even tell Gavinor anything about it? And can TOdium actually Riot people? His main emotion-manipulator is locked at the bottom of the sea, and none of the other Unmade seem to have that power. Nor do any of the Shards, from what I can remember. 

None? Ashertmarn have this power as well. Also, I think Manipulating Emotions is one of the most basic usages of Investiture so, though I dont have any evidence, I think every Shard can do this. Also, "taking away pain" seems to be simmilar to intensive Soothing (like is described in E2).

Also I think information about Duel is public - because it means also truce.

There is also another problem with Child Theory.

It relies only on fact Dalinar will be his Champion. What is not set in stone. Odium cannot be sure about this, because of Renarin. Dalinar would not kill Child, Kaladin neither. But Szeth or Jasnah will, if this would be what is needet.

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7 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

There is also another problem with Child Theory.

It relies only on fact Dalinar will be his Champion. What is not set in stone. Odium cannot be sure about this, because of Renarin. Dalinar would not kill Child, Kaladin neither. But Szeth or Jasnah will, if this would be what is needet.

Which is the reason that in the epilogue TOdium is trying to find out who the Champion will be

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11 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Dalinar has experience with visions, and talking with gods in it. He will be able recognise this.

He also has experience with traumatic sounds and visions from his burning of the Rift, and those FAR predate any visions. So your (step)-grandson went through some trauma and is acting weird and having nightmares that are different than the ones he had before, but aren't necessarily different symptoms from the ones he's had for the past year - is it more likely trauma acting in a different way due to slightly different circumstances, or an Evil God? Dalinar is probably going to think more of the former, not the latter.

But even if you say goes, wouldn't that be a kick in the teeth to Dalinar if the Bondsmith thought it was Rayse? Dalinar would have been telling Gavinor not to talk to Rayse, but Gavinor kept insisting he hasn't been, and then on the day of the Duel, it finally clicks in Dalinar's head that it was never Rayse - it was always Taravangian. 

 

11 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

And that was Raise, not Taravangian.

That's the point. No one on Dalinar's side knows that Taravangian is Odium right now. Hoid did know, but he most likely doesn't anymore. Everyone is assuming that they're playing against Rayse, which means that Rayse's MO is what they'll be looking at and looking for. 

 

11 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

CHampion mus be "Unharmed" but nothing is about helping him reach Urithiru. It is Odium Champion? So let Odium find him and bring him. This is also another problem with champion from "other side", and child especially - he can be taken away and be in place beyond our controll.

Quote

He took a deep breath. "Final terms are these:

A contest of champions to the death. On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour. We send a willing championallowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side's forces. If I win that contest, you will remain bound to the system - but you will return Alethkar and Herdaz to me, with all of their occupants intact. You will vow to cease hostilities and maintain peace, not working against my allies or our kingdoms in any way."

"Agree," Odium said. "But if I win, I keep everything I've won - including your homeland. I still remain bound to this system, and will cease hostilities as you said above. But I will have your soul. To serve me, immortal. Will you do this? Because I agree to these terms."

"And I," Dalinar whispered. "I agree to these terms."

"It is done."

Any time Dalinar or Odium doesn't allow the Champion to meet at Urithiru - anytime Dalinar or Odium tries to get out of the death of their Champion - they lose. There's no storing them away or waiting for the competition to end unless one or either of them wants to lose on purpose, and neither side wants to lose. Dalinar wants to win, while Taravangian seemingly wants out. Both of those things mean that at least for a while, the two have to play by the rules. 

 

11 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

None? Ashertmarn have this power as well. Also, I think Manipulating Emotions is one of the most basic usages of Investiture so, though I dont have any evidence, I think every Shard can do this. Also, "taking away pain" seems to be simmilar to intensive Soothing (like is described in E2).

That's fair. 

 

11 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Also I think information about Duel is public - because it means also truce.

It's not public, at least not yet.

 

Quote

"What is it, sir?" Kaladin asked.

"I haven't made it public knowledge yet, but Odium and I have set a time for our contest of champions." 

"That's excellent," Kaladin said. "How long?"

"Ten days."

"Ten...days?"

Dalinar nodded. 

Syl gasped, and Kaladin felt a spike of alarm. He'd always kind of thought...He'd spent this year assuming that...

"Sir," Kaladin said. "I can't..."

"I know, son," Dalinar said quietly. "You weren't right for the champion job anyway. This is the sort of thing a man must do himself."

Kaladin felt cold. Ten days. "The war...Does this mean...it will be over?"

"One way or another, it will end," Dalinar said. "The terms will enforce a treaty in ten days, following the contest. The contest will decide the fate of Alethkar, among...other items. Regardless, the hostilities will continue until that day, and so we must remain vigilant. I expect the enemy to make a play to capture what he can, before the treaty finalizes borders. I perhaps made a miscalculation there.

"Regardless, an end is in sight. But I'm going to need help from someone before this contest arrives. The fight won't simply be a swordfight - I can't explain what it will be. I don't know that I understand yet either, but I'm increasingly confident I need to master what I can of my powers."

- Rhythm of War, Chapter 116 "Mercy"

 

11 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

It relies only on fact Dalinar will be his Champion. What is not set in stone. Odium cannot be sure about this, because of Renarin. Dalinar would not kill Child, Kaladin neither. But Szeth or Jasnah will, if this would be what is needet.

Odium doesn't need Future Sight to see who Dalinar is going to pick, and he talked to Hoid in the Epilogue for this exact reason, as @Bejardin1250 noted.

Besides, Dalinar is pretty predictable regardless, and process of elimination is still a thing. 

Szeth will most likely be in Shinovar with Kaladin in order to help Dalinar learn about his Bondsmith powers from Ishar, who they are trying to heal. Unless they free and/or cleanse Shinovar, heal Ishar, and then get back in time for the duel that's in less that two weeks their time, then I don't see Szeth being the Champion. Besides, Dalinar all but told Kaladin that he was going to be the Champion when he said that "there are some things a man must do himself." (I'll find the exact quote after work.)

Dalinar letting Jasnah be the Champion is a poor idea and a sudden overcoming of a major personal flaw of his - Dalinar is a tyrant and a control freak, along with being pretty conservative. Again, see the above quote; and our guy didn't even consider Jasnah as the ruler of Kholinar before Shallan brought it up.

 

Quote

Dalinar has several distinct flaws, even still. He's bad at delegating. He is set in his ways and he is a monarchist. He believes in the kind of "Great Man Theory" is what they would call it. This is what the guy who does Hardcore History, Dan Carlin, talks about, this idea that "Great Men change the world." And a lot of historians say this is kind of a fallacy. Dalinar believes in that. He believes that a strong king is required for a government to work. Which is very at odds with our modern philosophy, and I agree with our modern philosophy. I do not agree with Dalinar. I do not agree that a king is better than a ruler with more limits. I'm glad we have a president, and not a king. But Dalinar, he's all on board with this idea of "Great Men have to change the world." And he would say "men," when we would be like, "Are you sure it has to be men, Dalinar?" He is a person, is what I want to write him as being. And some of those things are gonna rub you the wrong way. And I hope that my characters learn and grow in lots of ways, but there are some things that are aspects of their personality that are just who they are.

- Brandon Sanderson, Dusty Wheel Interview April 1, 2020

 

Dalinar may agree with the abolition of slavery, but that doesn't mean he's going to act on that anytime soon (in contrast to Jasnah's idea of using the chaos to get her changes across). Lastly, Jasnah is NOT a fighter. Her fight in OB was with an open Perpendicularity, and was against what amounted to mindless hordes; and if she was fighting the Pursuer - a Fused who specialized in killing Radiants - then she absolutely would have died. Dalinar as a contrast is a trained soldier and a veteran warrior, which means that the component of fighting to the death isn't too much of a problem for him since he has the experience (and the ability to open Perpendicularities in order to refresh himself). 

Oh, and let's not forget that Jasnah isn't always one to do the cold, hard purely logical thing either. Jasnah saved Renarin's life when killing him was not only what Renarin foresaw, but what would have been the pragmatic choice. Jasnah had assassins on watch for Aesudan, despite not having them act right away. Jasnah is human, and cares about those that are hers, of which Gavinor ultimately is. So saying that she would kill him in cold blood isn't a set-in-stone outcome. 

 

Ultimately, out of our core cast, by process of elimination, Dalinar is the best choice:

Wit can't hurt anyone. 

Jasnah and Navani are too important as leaders; the former has limited battle experience at best and isn't suited for 1v1 combat against a good opponent, while the latter is a noncombatant for all intents and purposes. 

Kaladin has outright been denied the position and neither he nor Dalinar really want him there; not to mention he'll be in Shinovar.

Renarin is ultimately isn't a fighter, despite his (limited) training. But he's also weird in terms of his powers and visions, and that's not something Dalinar would depend on.

Adolin would actually be a solid secondary choice combat and moral obligation-wise, but he's in Shadesmar.

Shallan isn't a fighter and is in Shadesmar.

Szeth will be in Shinovar, and I don't think Dalinar would actually want Szeth as his Champion. (That being said, he'd make a very good secondary choice due to his battle experience, knowledge of the Surges, lack of moral compass, and NIGHTBLOOD.)

Lift is a laughable thought, and we all know it. (I LOVE Lift, but she's not a fighter, nor is she a killer.)

The Heralds are insane.*

Venli can't fight and doesn't seem to want to.

Leshwi thinks herself too corrupted by Odium to fight, and doesn't really seem to want to. 

Who does that leave? Rock, possibly, but he's MIA for the moment. Bridge 4? Yes they're good, but they're not as good of fighters as Kaladin overall. 

(And remember, by fighter, I mean trained and experienced in fighting multiple battles. Shallan, Jasnah, and Renarin have all fought before, and have Shardblades, but against trained fighters like Leshwi, Kaladin, Adolin, and Dalinar, they're as good as dead.)

So really the only one left is Dalinar, who is Honor's representative in all other matters for all intents and purposes. Dalinar, who has had the most time with Odium AND Taravangian. Dalinar, who has the fighting experience and is the most focused on figuring the rest out for this exact fight. So with the fate of the world in this duel - with the fate of his homeland in this duel - would Dalinar truly give that task and responsibility to another?

 

So now that you've limited it down through what options were available and Dalinar's own flaws, you have to dive into Taravangian's perspective. Taravangian knows Dalinar, his strengths and weaknesses. Taravangian also has the advantage of not being known as the new Odium to his enemies, meaning that if he hides his actions carefully enough and keeps on Rayse's plans for the time being, no one would know the switch until it's too late. But Taravangian also wants out of the deal from what I can gather. But most importantly of all, Taravangian doesn't want to lose. That means setting his enemies up against something that inherently goes against what they know...which also works out great because the few Radiants that might not fall for the trick are out of the picture. (Jasnah is a 50/50 on falling for it, and she won't be chosen; and again, Szeth is in Shinovar.)

 

*That doesn't mean they don't have a major role to play in the conflict, but that's my endgame theory. 

Edited by Use the Falchion
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@Use the Falchion All of this is true, but still relying on converted from enemy's side whimsical child is in my opinion very, very risky. Remember when I told you, that Duel Has no Time limit?

On 21.08.2021 at 0:39 AM, Use the Falchion said:

The battle is to the death, and sticking Gavinor to the ground and having him die of starvation or dehydration (aka thirst) is a FAR worse and FAR more sadistic fate. Even at his worst, Dalinar wasn't sadistic. 

That was your answer, but that's not all possibilities. Dalinar can use this Time to figure out some Connection Shenanigans, free Gavinor from Odium, and make wierd unpredictable swaps. Much easier to exploite is this record about champion being "unharmed". This will be much faster, without any detectable preparations, and also without Time to react. And this not even need to be Gavinor, this can be literaly anyone from Urithiru.

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20 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Dalinar can use this Time to figure out some Connection Shenanigans, free Gavinor from Odium, and make wierd unpredictable swaps.

That's actually part of my contest theory. I fully believe Dalinar will do exactly that.* But to do that, Dalinar needs to know how to do this, have the power to fully do this, and know who to do it to. To me, that reads as Dalinar being put in a situation that forces him to swear an Ideal or two, gaining the ability to manipulate Connection freely (and not just linking people to something they're already Connected to), and then sacrificing himself...because that's what Dalinar does. But to get there, Dalinar needs to be put in a situation where he can swear and Ideal, and if that's like most other Oaths, it will be in a climactic moment. And what is the most expected climactic moment in Book 5? The Contest of Champions.

Which potential Champion would most likely push Dalinar to his limits though? El, a virtual unknown? Gavilar, the brother whose death and life before that Dalinar has already come to terms with (and would be even MORE motivated to defeat if Navani mentions anything about his abusive behavior)? Or Gavinor, the living embodiment of the childhood of Renarin and Adolin that he forsook for warfare? Gavinor, the last living memory of Elhokar? Gavinor, whose situation would be the inverse of Tanlan Jr's role in the Oathbringer flashbacks? Gavinor, who Dalianr wouldn't be able to kill because of his own past, history, and connection to his family

Quote

"Grampa," little Gavinor asked. "Was my daddy brave when he died?"

Dalinar settled down on the floor of the small room, setting aside the wooden sword he'd been using to play at a greatshell hunt. Had Adolin ever been so small? 

He was determined not to miss so much of Gav's life as he had his sons'. He wanted to love and cherish this solemn child with dark hair and pure yellow eyes. 

"He was very brave," Dalinar said, waving for the child to come sit in his lap." So very brave. He went almost alone to our home, to try and save it." 

"To save me," Gav said softly. "He died because of me." 

"No!" Dalinar said. "He died because of evil people."

"Evil people...like Mommy?"

Storms. This poor child.

"Your mother," Dalinar said, "was also brave. She didn't do those terrible things; it was the enemy, who had taken over her mind. Do you understand? Your mother loved you." 

Gavilar nodded, serious beyond his years. He did like playing at greatshell hunts, though he didn't laugh during them like other children would. He treated even play as a somber occasion. 

Dalinar tried to restart the pretend hunt, but the boy's mind seemed overshadowed by these dark thoughts. After just another few minutes, Gav complained that he was tired. So Dalinar let his nursemaid take him to rest. Then Dalinar lingered at the doorway, watching her tuck him into bed. 

What five-year-old wanted to go to bed? Though Dalinar had not been the most dutiful parent, he did remember lengthy complains from both Adolin and Renarin on evenings like this, when they insisted they were old enough to stay up and they did not feel tired. Gav instead clutched his little wooden sword, which he kept with him at all times, and drifted off.

- Chapter 54, "The Future Become Dust"

 

 

20 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Much easier to exploite is this record about champion being "unharmed". This will be much faster, without any detectable preparations, and also without Time to react. And this not even need to be Gavinor, this can be literaly anyone from Urithiru.

Not really, because the "unharmed" aspect is only applicable to getting to the Duel - and again, don't forget the fact that they must be allowed to reach the duel's location safely. Shards are bound to Intent. If Odium the Shard is bound to that Intent of allowing a peaceful travel to the duel, then trying to get out of that by playing the "foul" card would result in him breaking his Oaths. And once a Shard's Vessel swears an oath, even the new holder is obligated to honor it. Otherwise Taravangian would just escape. 

 

20 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

but still relying on converted from enemy's side whimsical child is in my opinion very, very risky.

Gavinor is anything but whimsical. Whimsical implies a level of playfulness that Gavinor has explicitly shown to be lacking. See the above and below quotes for extreme proof of that.

Quote

When Gavinor had finally been recovered, he'd been so frightened and timid he had cringed when Navani tried to hug him. That trauma, now a year past, was finally fading from the boy. He was often solemn - too solemn for a boy of five- but at least with her, he'd learn to laugh again.

...

"If I have a sword," Gav said, "nobody will be able to hurt me. I'll be able to find the man who killed my father. And I could kill him.

Navani felt a chill unrelated to the cold air. On one hand, it was a very Alethi thing to say. It broke her heart regardless. 

- Chapter 16, "An Unknown Song" 


 

*I think the most likely outcome for this scenario is that during the Contest - because again, the Champions MUST make it to the Contest, as is agreed upon in the rules -  Gavinor is the Champion, Dalinar swears and Ideal or two and uses the power of Connection to switch Gavinor's Connection to the role of Odium's Champion onto himself, his Connection to the role of Honor's Champion onto someone else (I think Taln is the most likely candidate), and then hoists his Connection to the Stormfather onto a third person (I think Kaladin is likely). From there, Dalinar dies, and things go haywire. Technically, Honor won because Honor's Champion won the Contest...but despite Dalinar being a willing Champion of Odium, Odium wouldn't have chosen him. So what happens? Honor gets a chance to wound and strike Odium, while Odium breaks his shackles to Roshar and escapes. Or he is shattered, and pieces of him are picked up by others. It could honestly go either way here. These events would rupture something necessary on Roshar, and ultimately highstorms would stop, leading to the Night of Sorrows, a long period of time with no highstorms. This would lead to the back half of the books focusing on either fixing the problem (Books 6 & 7) and/or leaving Roshar (Books 8-10). 

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Um... Adolin is going to be Odium's champion. 1) He's the best fighter on Roshar and the most emotionally difficult to kill.  Easy choice for Mr. T.  2) Like most villains, his hobbies are fashion, collecting exotic weapons, and political assassination.  3) Shallan feels safe around Adolin, but she feels hot around Kaladin. So that's going to end well. 4) This series is about how broken people can become heroes.   We need to consider the opposite how someone pleasant and balanced can become evil. 5) His final confrontation with Shallan/Kal/Dalinar/Renarin is the conclusion of every emotional arc and thus the series.

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