Champion’s Duel

[Bejarden King's Wit]

So who do you think the Champion will be

(if I missed anyone and I probably did, just say it)

Reasons are appreciated but not required

[Frustration Sliver]

El received far too much attention to not be the champion.

[Andy92 Full Shardbearer]

I also voted for El. Seemed like a pretty purposeful introduction of him in Rhythm of War setting this up. 

[Use the Falchion Twinborn]

El is going to do something important, but I don't think he'll be the champion. That feels too much like a certain thing that happened in WoT's final book. Said thing was cool, but it also felt a little out of nowhere. Gavinor still makes the most sense for me.

[Kitch Lighteyes]

I don't think there's going to be a clear champion or duel or anything that's to be expected. A big theme of RoW was that you approach a game with no chance of losing.  That there's going to be a punch across the card table when your opponent isn't expecting it. 

 

And Rayses goals were far different than Tara's goals.  Rayse wanted freedom to dominate other shards. TOdium wants to ensure that Roshar is still standing. I don't think TOdium will nuke Roshar to get what he wants compared to Rayse who has caused permanent damage to multiple planets for his own goals

 

I think we'll see something more complex resulting in a compromise of conditions that we don't really expect. We might not even see a 1 vs 1

[earthexile Arbiter]

I like the idea of a wrathful young Gavinor being Odium's champion, but the boy seems to have nothing but love for Dalinar personally. I don't know how anyone would talk him into facing his heroic grandpa in a duel or whatever they're doing.

[AquaRegia Spinner]

1) We did this already:

2) I don't understand how anyone who has read the first 4 books can predict anyone other than Gavilar as Odium's Champion.

 

[Quick Ben Hazekiller]

Personally I think there won't be a dual of champions, I thing Todium will look for a way to get Dalinar to renege on the agreement before the contest occurs. (I don't have any good ideas how he will achieve this)

If we knew 100% that there was going to be a dual, knowing that Todium said the way he saw to beat Dalinar was subtle, then I'd throw my hat on Renarin. (Who I don't see Dalinar killing,) and for all those who quote the suckling child death rattle for evidence for Gavinor i also think could substitute Renarin into that. (Altho i don't think that death rattle applies to the contest of champions )

@AquaRegia

if the champion was going to be Gavilar why would Rayse never of considered it ?

And why would Gaviliar agree to being Todiums champion ?

Also why I seen compelling evidence Gavilar may not be dead or maybe a CS, him showing up 5 books and 10 years(a guess later, out the blue, wouldn't be great writing.

Also has anyone ever out right asked BS  was Gaviliar really dead or if he was a CS etc ?

Edited June 8, 2021 by Quick Ben

[AquaRegia Spinner]

1 hour ago, Quick Ben said:

if the champion was going to be Gavilar why would Rayse never of considered it ?

And why would Gaviliar agree to being Todiums champion ?

Also why I seen compelling evidence Gavilar may not be dead or maybe a CS, him showing up 5 books and 10 years(a guess later, out the blue, wouldn't be great writing.

Also has anyone ever out right asked BS  was Gaviliar really dead or if he was a CS etc ?

What makes you assume Rayse didn't consider it?  I'll bet money that Dalinar was his SECOND choice, after his first choice got himself "killed".  How do you think Gavilar not only knows about but actually POSSESSES both Voidlight and Anti-stormlight years before anyone else?  Odium was definitely grooming him.

From what we know about Gavilar, he was obsessed with ruling as much of Roshar as he could, with his legacy, and with immortality.  Odium can offer him all of these, and more.

"Out of the blue" implies that Gavilar's return hasn't been foreshadowed... as if being the central figure in every single prologue - and the single most important influence on Dalinar, Navani, Jasnah, Elhokar, Venli, and many other people - is all simply to be ignored.  I'll agree Brandon is guilty of bad writing if Gavilar DOESN'T show up in book 5.

From what I can tell, nobody has yet asked point blank about Gavilar's status.  But every time someone asks about what Gavilar was up to, the answer is along the lines of "you'll learn a lot more soon."  A few examples:

 

Quote

 

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)
#5 Share  Copy

Questioner

In the prologue to Way of Kings, when Szeth kills Gavilar, Gavilar says, "Tell Thaidakar he's too late." What's Thaidakar too late for?

Brandon Sanderson

*Evil laugh* RAFO. You'll find out. It's coming, not too far away.

 

 

 

Quote

 

General Reddit 2020 (March 5, 2020)
#8March 5, 2020 Share  Copy

 

settingdogstar

Is Gavilar aware that the “two ambassadors” (one being called Nale) are Heralds? Or were they hiding their identities from him?

Brandon Sanderson

This will be soon answered. Suffice it to say that Gavilar knew much more than people thought he did.

 

 

[Quick Ben Hazekiller]

1 hour ago, AquaRegia said:

What makes you assume Rayse didn't consider it?  I'll bet money that Dalinar was his SECOND choice, after his first choice got himself "killed".  How do you think Gavilar not only knows about but actually POSSESSES both Voidlight and Anti-stormlight years before anyone else?  Odium was definitely grooming him.

I assume Rayse didn't consider it / wasn't working through Gavilar because Ulim was privy to and helped instigate his ,assassination which you would imagine Ulim the only spren of Rayse in physical world wouldn't do if they were and you would assume Ulim would know.

I'd imagine Gaviliar knew because was working with axinewieth (wrong spelling) who is terris and who I'd guess is working for "Trell", Trell maybe working with Rayse or to undermine Rayse in this case - no idea

I could be completely wrong and I accept that possibility.

1 hour ago, AquaRegia said:

"Out of the blue" implies that Gavilar's return hasn't been foreshadowed... as if being the central figure in every single prologue - and the single most important influence on Dalinar, Navani, Jasnah, Elhokar, Venli, and many other people - is all simply to be ignored.  I'll agree Brandon is guilty of bad writing if Gavilar DOESN'T show up in book 5.

To say he is the central figure is a stretch, imo, the prologue is great at raising questions, how ? Why? What ?Who ? Where ? When ? But they have multiple focuses Gaviliar is only one aspect of those questions raised, not the entirety of there focus.

[Harrycrapper Forger]

19 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

El is going to do something important, but I don't think he'll be the champion. That feels too much like a certain thing that happened in WoT's final book. Said thing was cool, but it also felt a little out of nowhere. Gavinor still makes the most sense for me.

Spoiler

Demandred?

 

[Bejarden King's Wit]

2 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

What makes you assume Rayse didn't consider it?

TOdium seems to realize something that Rayse did not, and it seems to pertain to theChampions duel

So if Gavilar is TOdiums champion it would follow that Rayse didn’t think of it

[Use the Falchion Twinborn]

1 hour ago, Harrycrapper said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Demandred?

 

Yup. 

To be fair, maybe Sanderson learned how to plan to implement El correctly to avoid that situation, but I'm still not sure one book is enough time for that type of villain. 

[Harrycrapper Forger]

12 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Yup. 

To be fair, maybe Sanderson learned how to plan to implement El correctly to avoid that situation, but I'm still not sure one book is enough time for that type of villain. 

I feel like El will be in the back half, not a one book antagonist like Lezian or Raboniel. I think his epigraphs are an indicator that he lives past the events of book 5. 

Spoiler

For Demandred, I give Brandon the benefit of the doubt as he inherited that from RJ. And he did write out a segment showing somewhat how Demandred acquired his various assets while introducing some of the relevant characters, it was released as a short story in an anthology. But, I think he had to cut it because the books were already super long and needed to be trimmed down. Either that or he couldn't fit it organically into the story, I can't remember which. I was lucky enough to see somewhere that it might be helpful to read that sometime before he appears in the actual books, an advantage to reading the series for the first time well after it was completed. 

I do think that Brandon learned from that situation and hasn't done anything as egregious as that in his books. Though, he did admit to regretting how he handled Amaram in OB and how some significant things happened off screen that hurt Amaram's portrayal. 

[Use the Falchion Twinborn]

19 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

I feel like El will be in the back half, not a one book antagonist like Lezian or Raboniel. I think his epigraphs are an indicator that he lives past the events of book 5. 

  Reveal hidden contents

For Demandred, I give Brandon the benefit of the doubt as he inherited that from RJ. And he did write out a segment showing somewhat how Demandred acquired his various assets while introducing some of the relevant characters, it was released as a short story in an anthology. But, I think he had to cut it because the books were already super long and needed to be trimmed down. Either that or he couldn't fit it organically into the story, I can't remember which. I was lucky enough to see somewhere that it might be helpful to read that sometime before he appears in the actual books, an advantage to reading the series for the first time well after it was completed. 

I do think that Brandon learned from that situation and hasn't done anything as egregious as that in his books. Though, he did admit to regretting how he handled Amaram in OB and how some significant things happened off screen that hurt Amaram's portrayal. 

Yeah I don't blame Brandon for the end-result too much - he took a troublesome situation and turned it into the best thing he could. But I feel like Brandon would be playing with fire if he did something similar, ala Odium's Champion. I agree with you on El being a back half character.

 

EDIT: Changed "El" to "Brandon"  

Edited June 9, 2021 by Use the Falchion

[Bejarden King's Wit]

2 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

But I feel like El would be playing with fire if he did something similar, ala Odium's Champion. I agree with you on El being a back half character. 

I kinda see El as a Jasnah of the Fused type of thing

Raboniel was more mad scientist,do what ever you want, but El seems like he’s really dangerous

But not especially good at dueling

[Use the Falchion Twinborn]

4 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

What makes you assume Rayse didn't consider it?  I'll bet money that Dalinar was his SECOND choice, after his first choice got himself "killed".  How do you think Gavilar not only knows about but actually POSSESSES both Voidlight and Anti-stormlight years before anyone else?  Odium was definitely grooming him.

From what we know about Gavilar, he was obsessed with ruling as much of Roshar as he could, with his legacy, and with immortality.  Odium can offer him all of these, and more.

"Out of the blue" implies that Gavilar's return hasn't been foreshadowed... as if being the central figure in every single prologue - and the single most important influence on Dalinar, Navani, Jasnah, Elhokar, Venli, and many other people - is all simply to be ignored.  I'll agree Brandon is guilty of bad writing if Gavilar DOESN'T show up in book 5.

From what I can tell, nobody has yet asked point blank about Gavilar's status.  But every time someone asks about what Gavilar was up to, the answer is along the lines of "you'll learn a lot more soon."  A few examples:

 

 

 

 

I think the question more important than "is Gavilar alive" is "would Dalinar fight and ultimately kill Gavilar if Gavilar did come back?" And I think the answer to the latter is "yes." Not only would he do it for Navani's honor if she told him even half of what was implied (and for the honor and memory of Elhokar), but also because I don't think it'd be breaking any Oaths. Gavilar is far from innocent, and Dalinar isn't fighting to become king of Alethkar, so no personal promises get in the way. 

In terms of fighting capabilities, I'm pretty sure Dalinar would be the winner there too. ...although with Cognitive Shadows, things could get pretty sticky...

But would Gavilar side with Odium? Absolutely, if it meant accomplishing his goals. But I still don't think his appearance would net the results Odium currently wants. I think Odium either needs to win or cause Dalinar to do something that would break the rules in order to get the desired results, and that screams moral conundrum to me. Gavilar, especially after RoW, doesn't feel like he'd cause too much of a moral conundrum. 

[AquaRegia Spinner]

5 hours ago, Quick Ben said:

I assume Rayse didn't consider it / wasn't working through Gavilar because Ulim was privy to and helped instigate his ,assassination which you would imagine Ulim the only spren of Rayse in physical world wouldn't do if they were and you would assume Ulim would know.

This is a good point.  However, as a Shard, Odium knows all about the nature of physical death, Investiture, and Cognitive Shadows.  It's certainly possible that Gavilar "dying" was part of Odium's plan all along.  Ulim is a tool, and an unreliable one - if I was Rayse I certainly wouldn't trust him with all the details of the plan, I'd simply manipulate/coerce him into doing what I want.

4 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

TOdium seems to realize something that Rayse did not, and it seems to pertain to theChampions duel

So if Gavilar is TOdiums champion it would follow that Rayse didn’t think of it

Not convinced of the logic here: even if we stipulate TOdium knows something Rayse didn't, that doesn't mean EVERYTHING he knows and does will be different.  It could be something completely unrelated to the Gavilar plan.

We do know that Rayse-Odium was watching Dalinar very closely for most of his life.  Odium knew about everything he ever did, and, through Nergaoul, had a hand in shaping many of the events of his life.  Is it unreasonable to think his brother, the king, was also under similar surveillance and influence?

[Use the Falchion Twinborn]

28 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

We do know that Rayse-Odium was watching Dalinar very closely for most of his life.  Odium knew about everything he ever did, and, through Nergaoul, had a hand in shaping many of the events of his life.  Is it unreasonable to think his brother, the king, was also under similar surveillance and influence?

Up until Gavilar started receiving visions, that's a reasonable assumption. But it was when Gavilar started receiving visions that he sort of went...down the rabbit-hole, so to speak. And we know that Nahel Bonds seem to help cancel out the Thrill. Dalinar feels less of it after receiving the visions, and Kaladin doesn't feel it at all. 

If Gavilar was going to escape Rayse-Odium's notice, then it would be during those years. 

[coppercloud Awakened Object]

On 6/8/2021 at 5:06 PM, Bejardin1250 said:

 

But not especially good at dueling

Quote

Burdens, Our Calling.

Songs of Home, a knowledge:

Knowing a Home of Songs, called our burden.

—Ketek written by El, Fused scholar of human art forms, to commemorate the restoration of the Sibling

what if its a contest of art . 

[Use the Falchion Twinborn]

1 hour ago, coppercloud said:

what if its a contest of art . 

I'm not sure how a contest of art would lead to the mandatory death of the other contestant (unless they must use the other Champion's blood in the art...), but I like the idea! ...Dalinar would be so done for...

[AquaRegia Spinner]

On 6/8/2021 at 1:35 PM, Quick Ben said:

And why would Gaviliar agree to being Todiums champion ?

My wife and I were talking about this the other day and she pointed out something which, to her, apparently, was obvious.

Assume that Gavilar was Invested enough when he died that he's now a Cognitive Shadow; this is not really any kind of stretch.  Odium now has TREMENDOUS leverage over him.  "Yes, you'd like to return to the Physical Realm, wouldn't you?  I can help make that happen... if you agree to act as my Champion.  You'll have power, like the Heralds and Radiants of old.  You'll lead an army the likes of which the Cosmere has never seen.  You will create an everlasting Empire that will span the stars.  You will be immortal, and every living being on every world will know and fear you. Your first task?  Kill your brother.  The man who swore to protect you, but who was too drunk to help you on the day the Assassin came.  He was a simple, useful tool in his younger days... but now he's gone wrong, betrayed you.  He sent your son on a doomed mission to his death.  He gave up the Crown of Alethkar and refused my offer of partnership.  He is leading the humans in a futile war that will destroy them AND the singers.  But together, WE will unite them... once Dalinar is removed."

Odium-as-Rayse could convincingly promise to give Gavilar literally everything he's ever wanted - power, legacy, immortality.  TOdium's approach may look somewhat different, but the end result might easily be the same.

[Bejarden King's Wit]

1 minute ago, AquaRegia said:

My wife and I were talking about this the other day and she pointed out something which, to her, apparently, was obvious.

Assume that Gavilar was Invested enough when he died that he's now a Cognitive Shadow; this is not really any kind of stretch.  Odium now has TREMENDOUS leverage over him.  "Yes, you'd like to return to the Physical Realm, wouldn't you?  I can help make that happen... if you agree to act as my Champion.  You'll have power, like the Heralds and Radiants of old.  You'll lead an army the likes of which the Cosmere has never seen.  You will create an everlasting Empire that will span the stars.  You will be immortal, and every living being on every world will know and fear you. Your first task?  Kill your brother.  The man who swore to protect you, but who was too drunk to help you on the day the Assassin came.  He was a simple, useful tool in his younger days... but now he's gone wrong, betrayed you.  He sent your son on a doomed mission to his death.  He gave up the Crown of Alethkar and refused my offer of partnership.  He is leading the humans in a futile war that will destroy them AND the singers.  But together, WE will unite them... once Dalinar is removed."

Odium-as-Rayse could convincingly promise to give Gavilar literally everything he's ever wanted - power, legacy, immortality.  TOdium's approach may look somewhat different, but the end result might easily be the same.

I think a certain Ishar could give that to him very soon…

Though I don’t think Gavilar would do it since the Fused are beholden to Odium and Gavilar seems to smart to have someone have that much leverage over his life and death

[Infinity Sliver Hazekiller]

17 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

Odium-as-Rayse could convincingly promise to give Gavilar literally everything he's ever wanted - power, legacy, immortality.  TOdium's approach may look somewhat different, but the end result might easily be the same.

Taravangian and Gavilar were also friends(acquaintances?) so that might even sweeten the deal

[Use the Falchion Twinborn]

1 hour ago, AquaRegia said:

My wife and I were talking about this the other day and she pointed out something which, to her, apparently, was obvious.

Assume that Gavilar was Invested enough when he died that he's now a Cognitive Shadow; this is not really any kind of stretch.  Odium now has TREMENDOUS leverage over him.  "Yes, you'd like to return to the Physical Realm, wouldn't you?  I can help make that happen... if you agree to act as my Champion.  You'll have power, like the Heralds and Radiants of old.  You'll lead an army the likes of which the Cosmere has never seen.  You will create an everlasting Empire that will span the stars.  You will be immortal, and every living being on every world will know and fear you. Your first task?  Kill your brother.  The man who swore to protect you, but who was too drunk to help you on the day the Assassin came.  He was a simple, useful tool in his younger days... but now he's gone wrong, betrayed you.  He sent your son on a doomed mission to his death.  He gave up the Crown of Alethkar and refused my offer of partnership.  He is leading the humans in a futile war that will destroy them AND the singers.  But together, WE will unite them... once Dalinar is removed."

Odium-as-Rayse could convincingly promise to give Gavilar literally everything he's ever wanted - power, legacy, immortality.  TOdium's approach may look somewhat different, but the end result might easily be the same.

I don't feel as if Gavilar would say "yes" with as much resignation or guilt as you think he would. 

 

Quote

LerasiumMistborn

What was Gavilar's opinion on Dalinar? I can't help myself, but I feel Gavilar saw Dalinar more like an effective tool rather than his brother.

Brandon Sanderson

He DID have affection for his brother, but Gavilar had a tendency to use everyone like tools to further his goals. Including people close to him.

 

As far as we know, Gavilar wanted to become immortal and eternally famous. If Dalinar was in his way, the above WoB doesn't make me feel like the former Alethi king would have any real regrets in disposing of him. Affection isn't going to stop someone like Gavilar from accomplishing their goals. 

And again, I still don't think Gavilar as Odium's Champion be as emotionally resonant as Gavinor could be.