Helaran's Shardblade [Discuss]

[Mage]

On 6/6/2021 at 6:52 PM, crème de la crèmling said:

Finally, there is the matter of Honorblades' behavior. When Taln drops his Honorblade, it doesn't vanish. 

I think someone has already stolen Taln's Honorblade by the time he reaches Kholinar in tWoK epilogue, so I'm pretty sure that is just an ordinary spren Shardblade that he drops there. IIRC Dalinar has to spend a week bonding that blade to set the trap for Amaram in WoR, so I think it was just something Taln did, not a property of Honorblades.

On 6/12/2021 at 8:14 PM, apepi said:

My thought, does Honorblades change your eye color like Shardblades do?  Do we know the eye color of Halaran, Szeth or the heralds?

Helaran started out as a lighteyes, so if he did in fact have an Honorblade that unfortunately wouldn't give us much insight into the effect of them on eye color.

[crème de la crèmling]

Having had time to dwell on this subject, the thing I find most interesting is how this has changed how I see Taravangian and his insights on the movements in the world. I definitely have a greater appreciation for how unreliable he is as a source. How he presents his information seems as important as the information he seems to convey, even within his own head. It also makes me wonder what exactly must be happening that he developed the conclusions he did.

Why does he think Helaran is a Surgebinder? What information does he have about the Davars? What was Helaran doing that it drew his attention, and Nale's, and Wit's? Nale tracked Szeth's location because of his unique circumstances; did he do something similar for Helaran? Why does the description given of the Blade, which is given so frequently, seem to match the art of the Lightweaver Honorblade? Is there a connection there at all? 

On 6/30/2021 at 8:03 AM, Waffles said:

Dalinar's visions were a year prior to meeting Ishar. Its perfectly possible the memory of the blade is vague at this point, but he absolutely would have recognized Amaram's blade at the time

This is something I really appreciate in discussion! For my part, I still had enough uncertainty on this point that I wanted to present the argument anyway. I included the scene where Amaram summons his Blade before Dalinar because I knew it was good evidence for the "against" argument. Dalinar especially would be able to identify various Shardblades at a quick glance.

The only possible argument I could make about this is that there may be subtle alterations in the visions as they presented to Dalinar. Information presented to him in the visions is subject to the perception given to him by the Stormfather and by Honor. He's never able to track down Feverstone Keep, for whatever reason. But there's also not much, if any, evidence to suggest that the visions are anything but faithful recreations of past events--so faithful that Navani is able to use his visions to facilitate the translation of the Dawnchant. She also instantly identifies Jezrien's Blade in the circle as the Blade that killed Gavilar, so there's not necessarily a reason to think that something has been changed in the vision of the Honorblades. I still think there's something up with Helaran, but I'm steadily being persuaded that this is unlikely to be it. 

On 7/1/2021 at 4:02 AM, Bzhydack said:

There is also another difference between dead Shardblade and Honorblade. Very distinctive one.

Honorblade is smaller than dead Shardblade, as we've seen in the case of Jezrien's blade. IT Has to be smaller, because Has to be practical as a weapon, while Shardblade whan alive, can change size and shape, so don't need to be "practical". Heck, I even think Spren wanted to be unpractical when they and Radiant decid break Bonds.

Specifically Jezrien's Honorblade is described as being relatively smaller and plainer than a typical Shardblade. I like to think that this is symbolic of the type of pragmatic, unaffected leadership that the Windrunners tend toward. The rest aren't necessarily described as being smaller or significantly different from a typical Shardblade when they happen to appear. Taln's Honorblade is described as being "massive", for example. The real difference, according to Dalinar, is that gemstone. 

Quote

Elegant, relatively small--in that it was barely five feet long--it was thin and curved like a tusk. It had patterns only at the base of the blade near the hilt. ...

... It did have one oddity. 

There was no gemstone. 

Gemstones were what allowed men to bond Shardblades. Often affixed at the pommel, although occasionally at the spot where hilt met blade, the gem would flash when you first touched it, initiating the process. Keep the Blade with you for a week, and the Blade became yours--dismissible and returnable in time with your heartbeat.

This Blade didn't have one. 

- OB Chapter 16: Wrapped Three Times

When Amaram touches Helaran's Shardblade, Kaladin sees the gem at the pommel flash. 

3 hours ago, Mage said:

I think someone has already stolen Taln's Honorblade by the time he reaches Kholinar in tWoK epilogue, so I'm pretty sure that is just an ordinary spren Shardblade that he drops there. IIRC Dalinar has to spend a week bonding that blade to set the trap for Amaram in WoR, so I think it was just something Taln did, not a property of Honorblades.

I genuinely believe that this is Taln's original Honorblade that he appears with in Kholinar. The Shardblade Taln is carrying in TWoK and the Shardblade that Dalinar bonds in WoR have been confirmed as being separate, and the swap as occurring somewhere on the way to the Shattered Plains. There's a WoB clarifying this point. I have edited it for length. 

Quote

Questioner

Why didn't Dalinar get the powers of a Stoneward when he bonded Taln's [Honorblade]?

Brandon Sanderson

Some readers have already figured this out, so I don't think I'm engaging in too large a spoiler to dig into this one here.

There are several oddities going on here. The most important one relevant to this question is the Blade in question. If you compare the descriptions of the sword described in the epilogue of The Way of Kings to the one that traveled with the madman (allegedly Taln, the Herald) to the Shattered Plains, you'll find they are different.

The one that the characters obtained in Words of Radiance is NOT an Honorblade. It's an ordinary Shardblade (as ordinary as one of those can be called.) I'm not going to say specifically what happened to the Blade Taln arrived with at Kholinar, but I will say that it IS a different weapon from the one in Words of Radiance.

The other issue here is the somewhat lesser question of whether this character is actually Taln, the Herald, or not. Some characters in-world don't believe that it is, though his viewpoint in Words of Radiance strongly implies otherwise. This isn't specifically relevant to the conversation for reasons I'll talk about below--but it is tangentially related. Because in the cosmere, Intent is important to many of the types of magic. It's theoretically possible to hold an Honorblade and not realize what its powers are, and therefore be unable to access them.

...

So the text is going to be making manifest fairly quickly who this person is. You'll have confirmations long before we dig into his viewpoint in the later books.

So, a recap:

1) The swords WERE swapped somehow.

2) Someone could hold an Honorblade and not realize they had access to powers.

3) This character may or may not actually be a Herald--but the text is going to make the answer clear, and I'm not trying to trick you.

FAQFriday 2017 (May 19, 2017)

There's another one confirming "staying dropped" as a behavior of Honorblades, that I will quote here:

Quote

luke.spence (paraphrased)

You mentioned that human can’t bond Honorblades, but Nalan tells Szeth that his bond with his Honorblade has been broken. Can you clear this up?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Humans CAN bond Honorblades. There's a crucial difference between Honorblades and Shardblades. When you drop an Honorblade, it does not disappear, even if it has been bonded. A Shardblade will disappear when dropped.

Words of Radiance Dayton signing (March 19, 2014)