crème de la crèmling Posted June 7, 2021 Report Share Posted June 7, 2021 It's exciting to post my own topic for the first time! Something I’ve wondered about for a while now is how Helaran appeared on the battlefield from behind Amaram’s lines. It’s been theorized for a while now that Helaran was a Surgebinder. Primarily, this is because of a quick line from Taravangian discussing Shallan as a Surgebinder. Quote “Who is it?” he asked softly. “Who is this Surgebinder?” “Jasnah’s ward?” Adrotagia said. They had been startled when that one arrived on the Shattered Plains. Already they hypothesized that the girl had been trained. If not by Jasnah, then by the girl’s brother, before his death. “No,” Taravangian said. “A male. One of Dalinar’s family members?” He thought for a time. “We need the Diagram itself.” WoR I-14: Taravangian Taravangian clearly believes that Helaran has some Surgebinding capability. But he’s absolutely startled by the account of an Alethi bridgeman spontaneously developing Surgebinding on his own. Quote They will come. You cannot stop their oaths. Look for those who survive when they should not. That pattern will be your clue. “The bridgemen,” Taravangian whispered. “What?” Adrotagia asked. Taravangian looked up, blinking bleary eyes. “Dalinar’s bridgemen, the ones he took from Sadeas. Did you read the account of their survival?” “I didn’t think it important. Just another game of power between Sadeas and Dalinar.” “No. It’s more.” They had survived. Taravangian stood up. “Wake every Alethi sleeper we have; send every agent in the area. There will be stories told of one of these bridgemen. Miraculous survival. Favored of the winds. One is among them. He might not know yet exactly what he’s doing, but he has bonded a spren and sworn at least the First Ideal.” WoR I-14: Taravangian What did he think Jasnah, Shallan, and Helaran were up to, then? Shallan is at the Shattered Plains, but though he suspects her of Surgebinding, she doesn’t apparently warrant activating their agents. He breezes right past her miraculous survival. He doesn't fret about her coming into contact with Szeth at all. But that makes sense if Taravangian knows that the Honorblades are no longer in the Shin's possession, and haven't been for years. He may be assuming Shallan's Surgebinding ability, whatever it is, is granted by a Blade that she was trained to use. In RoW, Szeth learns that his father, who had keeping of the Bondsmith Honorblade is dead, and that Ishar took back his Honorblade at some point after Szeth’s banishment. Quote “Your father was barely a man when I found him,” Ishar said. “The Shin had accepted the Unmade. Tried to make gods of them. I saved them. And your father did give me this Blade. He thanked me for letting him die.” RoW Chapter 111: Unchained Taravangian reveals that he knew Szeth’s father Neturo was dead prior to this revelation. Quote “I will not serve you,” Szeth said. “I will not be manipulated by you again. My stone … was always only a stone.… My father said…” “Your father is dead, Szeth,” Taravangian said. RoW I-9: The Sword My guess is that Ishar recovered his Honorblade about seven years before it’s spotted in RoW. This would coincide with him coming into power in Tukar. Nale seems to have been in contact with Ishar seven years ago, the same year that Gavilar and Shallan Davar’s mother were both killed. Did Nale's concerns, perhaps prompted by his conversations with Gavilar and Venli, influence Ishar's decision to take back his Honorblade? That’s a little bit out of the scope of what I’m thinking but pretty interesting. What I'm suggesting is that Ishar may have also taken custody of the other Honorblades as well. Helaran returns home with his new Shardblade about six and a half years ago, from the current position in the timeline. The descriptions given to this Shardblade closely resemble the Lightweaver Honorblade, which is something I never noticed until I looked at the art for the Honorblades. Quote He carried a massive sword in one hand, fully as long as a man was tall. It wasn’t a simple, straight sword—it was curved, and the side that wasn’t sharp was ridged, like flowing waves. Etchings covered its length. TWoK Chapter 1: Stormblessed Like a god carrying a majestic blade that should have been too big to use. It was engraved and stylized, shaped like flames in motion. TWoK Chapter 47: Stormblessings Something formed in Helaran’s hand, a line of mist that coalesced into silvery steel. A Blade some six feet long, curved and thick, with the side that wasn’t sharp rising into a shape like burning flames or perhaps ripples of water. It had a gemstone set at the pommel, and as light reflected off the metal, the ridges seemed to move. WoR Chapter 19: Safe Things Shallan was barely listening. A Blade with the back edge ridged like flowing waves. Or perhaps tongues of fire. Etchings all along its surface. Curved, sinuous. She knew this Blade. It belonged to her brother Helaran. WoR Chapter 52: Into the Sky That gemstone in the pommel is the only thing that doesn’t seem to fit that description. How hard is it to move and set gemstones on a Shardblade? It can be done to regular Shardblades, though I don’t know if that necessarily proves anything. Sunraiser, for example, bears a pretty strong resemblance to the Bondsmith Honorblade, in my opinion. Possibly Helaran’s blade is a dead spren in a form that strongly resembles the Lightweaver Honorblade. But with the Lightweaver Honorblade, Helaran’s miraculous appearance makes more sense. He’d have used a Lightweaving to hide the fact that he was a Shardbearer mounted on a horse in the middle of an enemy army. It also might explain something that has meshed poorly for me with Helaran's being a Skybreaker acolyte, which was specifically his weird glowing effect. Quote Shallan took it hesitantly. Helaran’s grin was so wide, it practically glowed. It was hard to frown in a room where he was smiling. When he was around, she could almost pretend . . . Almost pretend . . . WoR Chapter 19: Safe Things Shallan or the things she holds sometimes seem to glow, particularly when it’s implied that she’s using the Spiritual form of her Transformation surge. Tien’s implied bond to a Cryptic also uses the symbolism of things glowing or becoming brighter. To me this is more evidence that Helaran had some Surgebinding ability in that direction. Shallan mentions that there is no history attached to Amaram/Helaran’s Shardblade, in a world where every Shardblade known is recorded and named. It’s not out of the question that Nale would have access to an unknown Shardblade, but if he’s in contact with Ishar and seriously concerned by an oncoming Desolation, he might have access to another Honorblade and the motivation to arm someone who "impressed him" with it. Taravangian therefore might be working under the assumption that the same source (Nale) that gave Helaran his Honorblade might be supplying Shallan. This means that Amaram would have had possession of the Lightweaver Honorblade. If he perceived it as an ordinary Shardblade, perhaps he simply never noticed he was holding an Honorblade. I think this would be pretty deeply ironic for the villain who lies to himself about why he does what he does and truly believes his own lies to have the Lightweaver Honorblade. Someone who would have known, Restares/Kalak, seemed mostly to be in contact with Amaram via spanreed from afar. I doubt he’d share that information with Amaram, who I think he must have been manipulating--but it’s impossible to say. Other people who would recognize the Lightweaver Honorblade would be Szeth, Dalinar, Taln, and Ash. Szeth, Taln, and Ash don’t ever seem to witness Amaram wielding the Blade in combat that I can find, although all three are present at the Battle of Thaylen Field. Ash spends her time looking after Taln, and never mentions seeing her own Honorblade or Amaram. Szeth, likewise, spends a lot of his time occupied by other concerns, and never mentions seeing the Lightweaver Honorblade or Amaram that I can find in the text. It’s either not the one, or they miraculously miss it every time. Dalinar also saw both Helaran/Amaram’s Shardblade, when he confronted Amaram near the end of WoR, and the Honorblades in his visions of Aharietiam. Quote A Blade formed in Amaram’s hand a second later--a second too late. His eyes went wide as he stared at the silvery Blade held to his throat. WoR Chapter 76: The Hidden Blade Dalinar stepped through the shadows, rounding the nine Blades. This was another image he’d misunderstood when living this vision the first time. These weren’t just Shardblades. “Ash’s eyes,” Navani said, pointing. “I recognize that one, Dalinar. It’s the one…” “The one that killed Gavilar,” Dalinar said, stopping beside the plainest Blade, long and thin. “The weapon of the Assassin in White. It’s an Honorblade. They all are.” OB Chapter 38: Broken People Dalinar also pitched the idea of Shallan doing studies of the Honorblades seen in the vision. Dalinar has published written accounts of the visions, as I recall, but no mention is made of drawings. Quickly reading through the rest of the part, it's not clear to me if Shallan ever gets around to doing that. However, when Dalinar sees Ishar’s Honorblade, he doesn’t have the same recognition he does for Jezrien’s Blade, which is the most familiar to him; this could be a continuity error, or maybe indicative of something else. Quote A sinuous Shardblade lined with glyphs Dalinar did not recognize—though the Blade itself was vaguely familiar. Had he seen it before? Szeth hissed loudly. “That Blade,” he said. “The Bondsmith Honorblade. My father’s sword. Where did you get it? What have you done to my father?” RoW Chapter 111: Unchained And during the battle, when Dalinar does the tally of people with him, Amaram wields Oathbringer alone. As far as I can tell, Amaram doesn’t use Helaran’s Blade until he fights Kaladin. Finally, there is the matter of Honorblades' behavior. When Taln drops his Honorblade, it doesn't vanish. Quote He slumped forward, hitting the rocky ground, Shardblade clattering down behind him. It did not vanish. TWoK Epilogue: Of Most Worth This is meant to be a big clue as to its nature. Amaram drops Helaran's Blade twice in his fight with Kaladin, and it vanishes. Quote Amaram struck again, and Helaran’s sword got tangled in the tines. Kaladin spun the shield, wrenching the sword out of Amaram’s grip. It vanished to smoke. ... Amaram stumbled forward, dropping his Shardblade, the arrow stuck in his head. … Amaram’s red eyes faded as he died, and Kaladin had the distinct impression of a dark smoke escaping his corpse. Two Shardblades formed beside him and clanged to the stone. OB Chapter 120: The Spear That Would Not Break Szeth also drops Jezrien's Blade in the fight with Gavilar, and the “bond” so to speak doesn’t appear to be broken. Szeth is able to resummon the Honorblade after being parted from it. No mention is made of where it ended up or if it vanished as he dropped it. Quote Szeth stumbled to his feet, vision swimming. Blood streamed from the side of his face, and Stormlight rose from his skin, blinding his left eye. The Light. It would heal him, if it could. His jaw felt unhinged. Broken? He’d dropped his Shardblade. … [Szeth] held his hand to the side, resummoning his Shardblade. TWoK Prologue: To Kill My only explanation for this is that perception could be at work here. Szeth believes that the Honorblade should take ten heartbeats to summon, and it does. Perhaps Amaram likewise believes that a Shardblade should vanish when it is dropped, and so as it leaves his hand, it vanishes. Ishar demonstrates that the Honorblade, like a living Shardblade, can wink out of existence for a second and return in a flash. Quote Ishar fought brilliantly as the other Windrunners tried to gang up on him. He was a blur with a flashing Blade, parrying, dodging, skepping his Blade—making it vanish for a brief moment to pass through a weapon trying to block it. The Windrunners had only recently started practicing the technique; Ishar performed the complex move with the grace of long familiarity. RoW Chapter 111: Unchained To summarize: I think it’s possible that Helaran was given the Lightweaver Honorblade by Nale, who gained access to it when Ishar reclaimed his own Honorblade. It’s not clear to me why he would do that, although Mraize says that Helaran was recruited with “displays of power” and that Helaran impressed Nale. Could Nale have shown Helaran how it would be possible to Surgebind without bonding a Cryptic? Then Helaran uses it to position himself behind Amaram’s lines. Maybe as an enemy combatant on the field of war, the kill is “legal?” This is still a mystery to me. Helaran is then killed by Kaladin. Eventually the Honorblade ends up with Amaram, who is completely ignorant of what it really is, and somehow it conveniently hopscotches anyone who could identify it. The Blades are awarded to then Rock, who "insists that they cannot be used" according to his daughter. They "gather dust in their box" until he returns to the Horneater Peaks. I find this idea extremely interesting, but a bit tenuous! I've done my best to cover all the things I can think of on my own, for and against. I specifically like Helaran's Shardblade being the Lightweaver Honorblade for the thematic connection to Amaram's lies, and because it's a simple, elegant explanation for the things about Helaran that don't quite make sense otherwise. But it seems to rely on those who could see it for what it is to simply not be around, for certain lapses of curiosity, and for Nale to be totally okay with losing an Honorblade. The gemstone is also located in the wrong place according to the art, which I am not 100% is really usable as evidence, and when it gets dropped, it vanishes ... Despite all this, I still thought it would be a fun theory to share. 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted June 7, 2021 Report Share Posted June 7, 2021 Why would Nale trust an acolyte? Why not use it himself? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crème de la crèmling Posted June 7, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2021 1 hour ago, Frustration said: Why would Nale trust an acolyte? Why not use it himself? Mraize's letter says that Nale was impressed by Helaran somehow, though anything Mraize tells Shallan deserves a lot of scrutiny--I think Mraize is interpreting his information through whatever means they use to spy on the Skybreakers, and he doesn't have the full context of why Nale does anything he does. Helaran tells his father that he has "an important work to do" when Lin asks him about his "new friends." Wit also deemed Helaran worthwhile enough to pass along his message (though it might have been simple curiosity to see what was happening in that area, since he references that there's something more going on there). He calls Helaran "a very determined young man" and adds that "very little in the world has ever gone astray--at least on a grand scale--because a person decided to be frivolous." There was something about this guy that prompted important people to pay attention to what he was doing. It's just not clear yet what that was. Nale only reclaimed his own Honorblade back in the day. There's too much I'm not certain of to say why he wouldn't just use it himself, except to observe that he hasn't used another powerful weapon in his possession personally in the text, and that the Lightweaver power set doesn't seem to match how Nale operates on his own. I could probably wonder why Ishar wouldn't just use all the Blades in his possession himself. Nale believed that Nightblood was particularly suited to Szeth; he may have done the same in the past for Helaran. Otherwise, I don't have a real answer to that particular question that isn't wholly speculation. It's definitely something to consider. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted June 7, 2021 Report Share Posted June 7, 2021 Helaran died too quickly to have been able to draw Stormlight. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crème de la crèmling Posted June 7, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2021 7 minutes ago, Frustration said: Helaran died too quickly to have been able to draw Stormlight. My guess is that it has to do with how Kaladin killed him (direct strike to the head) and the inefficiency of Stormlight use via Honorblade. Szeth brings that up in the Prologue of TWoK. Quote More Light rose from the side of his face, repairing his damaged skin and bones. The pain was still great; Stormlight healing was far from instantaneous. It would be hours before he recovered. TWoK Prologue: To Kill That was a non-fatal injury that Szeth believed would take ages using the Honorblade's access to Stormlight healing. Shallan has taken direct hits to the head and survived, but her Radiant healing is much, much faster than "hours" to heal a broken jaw. Nale has also taken a shot to the head, but he's Radiant as well. Nale also remarks (a little chillingly) that most new Radiants die because they don't know how to heal in an unconscious state. Quote "She is too new to know how to feed on Stormlight in this state. You [Lift] I'll have to impale and wait until you are truly dead. This one though, she can just bleed out. It's happening already." Edgedancer Chapter 19 Another argument is "why not use Soulcasting or illusions?" And the answer to that might be strategy, optics, or even that inefficiency vs what Helaran could get for it in active combat. Lightweavers don't seem to use their Surges in an offensive way very often. Still, my argument is weak there. Taravangian's assumption that Helaran was a Surgebinder, or had been trained in it, also holds a lot of weight for me as well. However, this could also be referring to training as a Skybreaker trainee at some point, especially since the Skybreakers have been involved with the Davars one way or another for a while now. But the fact that Taravangian was so deeply concerned about Szeth encountering Kaladin, who is swearing oaths and bonding a spren, but not Shallan makes me think that he's assuming there's a non-Radiant origin to her Surgebinding, along with assuming that Helaran trained her in that and was also worth keeping track of ... and of course, here I have to concede that he's actually wrong about Shallan entirely, so how much weight those words can be given might be a little limited. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bejarden Posted June 7, 2021 Report Share Posted June 7, 2021 Just a quick question Whats your evidence that it is an Honorable? Do you have anything definitive or is it all guesswork 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crème de la crèmling Posted June 7, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2021 4 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said: Just a quick question Whats your evidence that it is an Honorable? Do you have anything definitive or is it all guesswork It's all guesswork. What I'm doing is looking at the specific moments that don't have an explanation and seeing if I can apply anything that makes sense, improves my enjoyment of the story, or both. My example here is that I really enjoy the theme of lies, truth, and ignorance: Amaram wanted to find the Honorblades so badly, never realizing that he already had one. He wanted to bring back the Heralds, when they were already here. He was deceiving himself, and being deceived. His inability to perceive the world as anything but what he wanted it to be eventually destroys him when the truth is revealed, and cannot bring himself to account for his actions. It also explains, in a simple way, certain things that Helaran does that don't make sense to me if his Shardblade is dead, or doesn't have a Radiant bond, or isn't Surgebinding, etc. And if that's the case, then I like that a lot. But the presence of an operational gemstone that flashes when the bond is initiated when Honorblades don't need one bothers me; the fact that the Blade vanishes when he drops it does the same thing; there is nothing concrete about Ishar taking or the Shin holding the Honorblades; and so maybe this isn't the answer. Someone else reading the wrong answer might suddenly realize something else that fits better, though, so I thought it would be interesting to put it forward. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waffles Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 I think it makes more sense that T's suspicions about Heleran are there to show he understood via either rumor or analysis that somebody in the Davar house was a surgebinder and T's guesses while generally close they are frequently wrong in the details. On the other side there's also the idea if Heleran was a skybreaker squire a normal shardblade may be impossible for him to carry due to spren screaming. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 That would be an interesting direction to take things. Wonder how Nale got his Blade back, Ash & Ishar said that the Shin weren't just going to hand over their Honorblades back to them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Harrycrapper Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 (edited) On 6/6/2021 at 5:52 PM, crème de la crèmling said: In RoW, Szeth learns that his father, who had keeping of the Bondsmith Honorblade is dead, and that Ishar took back his Honorblade at some point after Szeth’s banishment. I'm not inclined to believe Ishar and Taravangian that Szeth's father is dead. Ishar has a very questionable perception of reality and there was almost nothing that was true in his other statements. Taravangian was in the process of gaslighting Szeth and could very well have been improvising. As for Heleran's Shardblade/Shalash's Honorblade, I've seen people guessing that Heleran's Blade was an Ashspren(I think that's the Dustbringer spren?) based on the flamelike design. I managed to find the art that I think you're referencing for Shalash's blade, it does technically match that description assuming Chaos labeled it right. Here's the link for anyone interested: Edit: For some reason the link wasn't working, it's the news from May 3rd 2020 on this website. I was ready to dismiss this at a glance. I figured the Honorblades would look somewhat like the Shardblades of the corresponding order and that the flamelike pattern a solid indication it was a Dustbringer deadeye. But I suppose not all of them, if any, really match their corresponding order. So, I don't think this can be entirely dismissed, though I'm not entirely sure how much of a narrative purpose it would have for the currently released books if this Shardblade turned out to be an Honorblade. Last we saw, it was on its way to the Horneater Peaks, so if there's anything to be revealed, it would happen in the Horneater novella. Though I can't remember if Brandon was going to be able to get that out before Stormlight 5, I feel he said the schedule might not allow it. Edited June 11, 2021 by Harrycrapper 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crème de la crèmling Posted June 11, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 On 6/10/2021 at 5:49 AM, Waffles said: I think it makes more sense that T's suspicions about Heleran are there to show he understood via either rumor or analysis that somebody in the Davar house was a surgebinder and T's guesses while generally close they are frequently wrong in the details. On the other side there's also the idea if Heleran was a skybreaker squire a normal shardblade may be impossible for him to carry due to spren screaming. That's a really solid point about Taravangian. He was absolutely wrong about Shallan, and so relying too much on his analysis of Helaran's abilities could be misleading. But that still leaves me with the question of how Helaran got behind Amaram's lines to attack him, especially as a Shardbearer in full plate on a white horse. On 6/10/2021 at 6:05 AM, Honorless said: That would be an interesting direction to take things. Wonder how Nale got his Blade back, Ash & Ishar said that the Shin weren't just going to hand over their Honorblades back to them. I do too! Szeth says it "vanished" long ago, and described himself as having seen depictions of it instead. My guess about Ishar's reclaiming his Honorblade is just a guess, based on the fact that it would have had to be between Szeth being exiled and some time before Szeth identifies it. Ishar starts the Eighty's War as Tezim around the time Gavilar dies, but does he do so with or without his Honorblade to back up his claims of being an aspect of the Almighty? In OB, the Voidspren are said to have appeared somewhere near "Marat or Tukar on your side" sometime in the last year, causing a change in Shadesmar "these last few months." That's certainly pretty weird, and could indicate a big change there. Here's Ishar's (somewhat dubious) take on the Shin and the Honorblades: Quote "My people," Szeth shouted, "were not going to return your weapons to you. We kept your secrets, but you lie if you say my father gave you that Blade!" "Your father was barely a man when I found him," Ishar said. "The Shin had accepted the Unmade. Tried to make gods of them. I saved them. And your father did give me this Blade. He thanked me for letting him die." RoW Chapter 111: Unchained 21 hours ago, Harrycrapper said: I'm not inclined to believe Ishar and Taravangian that Szeth's father is dead. Ishar has a very questionable perception of reality and there was almost nothing that was true in his other statements. Taravangian was in the process of gaslighting Szeth and could very well have been improvising. It's even the second time Taravangian has used the Honorblades in an attempt to coerce Szeth into doing what he wants him to do ... this is a good point to bring up, especially since it highlights how unreliable Taravangian is as a source. The fact that Ishar appeared to confirm what Taravangian said could even be meant as a misdirection. Taravangian plants the seed that ultimately gets "confirmed" somehow and then Szeth reacts exactly as Taravangian ultimately intended. In that same scene, though, Taravangian regrets reading those manipulations, and appeals to Szeth in a way that at least appears sincere. He just doesn't walk back on Szeth's father being dead. I guess this will have to wait until the story goes to Shinovar. Szeth recognizes the Bondsmith Honorblade, though, and Ishar demonstrates that he can manipulate Connection in the fight. I think it's safe enough to assume at some point, Ishar did manage to get a hold of the Bondsmith Honorblade, although his version of events as he tells them might be extremely skewed. Like I noted, Dalinar only finds it "vaguely familiar" even though he has actually seen it before, in the visions of Aharietiam. Are the visions presenting the Honorblades in another way? Is Dalinar's memory for them just not as good, since he didn't study them and Szeth did? Is it just continuity editing? 21 hours ago, Harrycrapper said: As for Heleran's Shardblade/Shalash's Honorblade, I've seen people guessing that Heleran's Blade was an Ashspren(I think that's the Dustbringer spren?) based on the flamelike design. I managed to find the art that I think you're referencing for Shalash's blade, it does technically match that description assuming Chaos labeled it right. Here's the link for anyone interested: Edit: For some reason the link wasn't working, it's the news from May 3rd 2020 on this website. I was ready to dismiss this at a glance. I figured the Honorblades would look somewhat like the Shardblades of the corresponding order and that the flamelike pattern a solid indication it was a Dustbringer deadeye. But I suppose not all of them, if any, really match their corresponding order. So, I don't think this can be entirely dismissed, though I'm not entirely sure how much of a narrative purpose it would have for the currently released books if this Shardblade turned out to be an Honorblade. Last we saw, it was on its way to the Horneater Peaks, so if there's anything to be revealed, it would happen in the Horneater novella. Though I can't remember if Brandon was going to be able to get that out before Stormlight 5, I feel he said the schedule might not allow it. Well, an extremely tenuous connection there might be Ash's book being the Dustbringer themed one. The sole narrative purpose I can think of is maybe Rock finally decides it's time to use weapons in his novella, and the Honorblade would be a readily available deadeye-free option. Would someone be able to take an Honorblade into Shadesmar? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bejarden Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 4 minutes ago, crème de la crèmling said: That's a really solid point about Taravangian. He was absolutely wrong about Shallan, and so relying too much on his analysis of Helaran's abilities could be misleading. But that still leaves me with the question of how Helaran got behind Amaram's lines to attack him, especially as a Shardbearer in full plate on a white horse. Why couldn’t he have gone around? Nobody is going to stop him and because of the rural place of the battle there probably wasn’t communication for warning 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crème de la crèmling Posted June 11, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 Just now, Bejardin1250 said: Why couldn’t he have gone around? Nobody is going to stop him and because of the rural place of the battle there probably wasn’t communication for warning I was thinking logistically; how would you move around Shardplate subtly? How would you get into it? It can't be Lashed. Moash needed a wagon to transport his. Adolin has to have a support team to help get him in it. Something is going on that assists Helaran getting to where he needs to be. He could have volunteered with the opposing side, moved around that way, but practically I think it's likely he would have been seen long before he actually is, by everyone. Re-reading the chapter, Cenn describes the battlefield as "bare, flat slickrock, remarkably even and smooth, broken only by occasional rockbuds." He describes the enemy as appearing "civil and neat." There is a lot of visibility on this battlefield. They spot riders pretty easily on the battlefield, including a guy with a mace that Cenn mistakes for a Shardbearer. (I also mixed up this guy's horse with Helaran's earlier; his is white and Helaran's is black.) Here's an interesting bit that I initially forgot about, though: Quote [Cenn] leaned back, staring up at the sky. He could hear faint thunder. That was odd. The sky was cloudless. Dallet cursed. Cenn turned, shocked out of his stupor. Galloping directly toward them was a massive black horse bearing a rider in gleaming armor that seemed to radiate light. TWoK Chapter 1: Stormblessed That's something else to consider! Putting that aside for now, Kaladin has more battlefield awareness than Cenn, and he's the one who places Helaran in behind their own lines. Quote The Shardbearer broke out of Amaram's lines. He'd been riding through them, cutting down men as he passed. For a brief moment, Kaladin's mind refused to acknowledge that this creature--this beautiful divinity--could be an enemy. The fact that the Shardbearer had come through their side reinforced that illusion. TWoK Chapter 47: Stormblessings I don't think there wouldn't need to be communication or messages to relay the information that a Shardbearer had entered the fray. Visibility is too good for him to simply ride around and the impression he makes when he does appear is so overwhelming that it makes me doubtful he could move around like that unremarked without help. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bejarden Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 1 minute ago, crème de la crèmling said: I was thinking logistically; how would you move around Shardplate subtly? How would you get into it? It can't be Lashed. Moash needed a wagon to transport his. Adolin has to have a support team to help get him in it. Something is going on that assists Helaran getting to where he needs to be. He could have volunteered with the opposing side, moved around that way, but practically I think it's likely he would have been seen long before he actually is, by everyone. Re-reading the chapter, Cenn describes the battlefield as "bare, flat slickrock, remarkably even and smooth, broken only by occasional rockbuds." He describes the enemy as appearing "civil and neat." There is a lot of visibility on this battlefield. They spot riders pretty easily on the battlefield, including a guy with a mace that Cenn mistakes for a Shardbearer. (I also mixed up this guy's horse with Helaran's earlier; his is white and Helaran's is black.) Here's an interesting bit that I initially forgot about, though: That's something else to consider! Putting that aside for now, Kaladin has more battlefield awareness than Cenn, and he's the one who places Helaran in behind their own lines. I don't think there wouldn't need to be communication or messages to relay the information that a Shardbearer had entered the fray. Visibility is too good for him to simply ride around and the impression he makes when he does appear is so overwhelming that it makes me doubtful he could move around like that unremarked without help. When your in battle I assume you aren’t constantly looking for the enemy behind you They just had other things to deal with And other people could have saw him but he just killed them before they could move Its definitely not a large question, if could be wiggles out by just saying Kal was preoccupied 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Harrycrapper Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 1 hour ago, crème de la crèmling said: Szeth recognizes the Bondsmith Honorblade, though, and Ishar demonstrates that he can manipulate Connection in the fight. I think it's safe enough to assume at some point, Ishar did manage to get a hold of the Bondsmith Honorblade, although his version of events as he tells them might be extremely skewed. Like I noted, Dalinar only finds it "vaguely familiar" even though he has actually seen it before, in the visions of Aharietiam. Are the visions presenting the Honorblades in another way? Is Dalinar's memory for them just not as good, since he didn't study them and Szeth did? Is it just continuity editing? It's possible the Heralds can change the shape of the Honorblades or they're the only ones who know how. Maybe it actually is different than when Dalinar saw it in the vision. 1 hour ago, crème de la crèmling said: Would someone be able to take an Honorblade into Shadesmar? Presumably, yes. At the very least, the Honorblade that gives Elsecaller powers would by necessity need to go to Shadesmar with its wielder. I'd bet that the Honorblades behave like Azure's blade and Nightblood, they just remain swords when you take them into Shadesmar. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apepi Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 My thought, does Honorblades change your eye color like Shardblades do? Do we know the eye color of Halaran, Szeth or the heralds? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Harrycrapper Posted June 14, 2021 Report Share Posted June 14, 2021 On 6/12/2021 at 7:14 PM, apepi said: My thought, does Honorblades change your eye color like Shardblades do? Do we know the eye color of Halaran, Szeth or the heralds? I seem to recall something about Szeth not having light eyes in WoK, can't remember specifically. Moash's eyes are still dark though, so no it does not change eye color like a Radiant when they reach the Third Ideal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crème de la crèmling Posted June 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2021 On 6/11/2021 at 1:34 PM, Bejardin1250 said: When your in battle I assume you aren’t constantly looking for the enemy behind you They just had other things to deal with And other people could have saw him but he just killed them before they could move Its definitely not a large question, if could be wiggles out by just saying Kal was preoccupied This is something that deserves maybe more attention than I've given it previously. I've definitely taken for granted the fact that I feel Helaran's appearance is so strange, dramatic, and puzzling that it requires some sort of explanation, and haven't spent a lot of time explaining why I believe it to be that to be the case. I'll do my best to go over why I feel it's worthy of scrutiny. I want to start by saying, well, it's a story, and narratively it has the most impact if Helaran appears out of nowhere, where no one is expecting him. But there is a strong practical aspect to the books, so I do think you could follow the lines and puzzle out a explanation. The battle is split across two viewpoints, Cenn at the beginning, and then Kaladin for parts of the beginning and the conclusion. Cenn sets up the terrain and gives some insight on the visibility. The battlefield is bare and flat, "good pasture" land. There are thousands of soldiers lining up behind them; Kaladin's squad is at the front. For Cenn, the battle is utter chaos; he has no idea why Kaladin does anything that he does and everyone looks , but he does provide something of a timeline. At the start of the battle, Kaladin moves his squad to a predetermined location, a "small incline" that they hold for "the better part of an hour." At that point, Amaram's line breaks and they retreat, which "turns into a rout." They head east, trying to rejoin with a larger portion of Amaram's army, when they are intercepted by enemy soldiers on their way back to their own army's position. This is to illustrate that they are looking back at their own lines for a variety of reasons the whole time. I would argue that the thing Kaladin is preoccupied with is watching the flow of battle with a mind to keep his squad alive. Though everything is chaos and disintegration to Cenn, Kaladin views the battle very differently. He is consistently tracking threats and potential targets. He looks back at his own lines multiple times, to track the progress of the battle and the best positions to retreat. He also looks back because he's expecting runners to lift his wounded from the battlefield, and to claim specific kills. When a combatant with a lot of advantages appears, such as the mace-wielder, he breaks a "bubble" around him as people try to get out of range, making them visible. Around the time that Helaran appears, Cenn looks back to note that "[a]s Kaladin had predicted, Amaram's line was surging back, recovering." They are watching their own line pretty closely. Quote Kaladin nodded curtly, surveying the battlefield. Amaram's forces were recovering; they'd win the day before long. In fact, Amaram would probably be leading a direct surge against the enemy by now. He generally entered the battle at the end. It's at this point that Helaran makes his appearance. Was the line "surging" because people were running away from Helaran? Just a moment before, Kaladin appears to believe that Amaram's forces are winning. Toorim, a member of one of Kaladin's squad, is the one who alerts Kaladin of the oncoming Shardbearer, who then turns the once recovering ranks "to mush." The way he's described makes it clear that there is something very special about his weapon and his armor that is unmistakable. He radiates light, "like the Almighty himself had taken form to walk the battlefield." He's galloping on a massive black horse, which in Shardplate is hard on ordinary warhorses. Kaladin calls him an impossibility for a reason. Just as Amaram is about to win the battle and has entered combat personally, Helaran also enters as well. He doesn't appear to take a side. He rides south, where Amaram is leading. He pauses to kill soldiers he passes. When Kaladin's squad engages him, he "shook a helmed head" and proceeds to kill everyone who doesn't flee. There are four that he ignores on his way to execute Amaram. Finally, Kaladin engages and kills him. If there was any hint of this guy on the battlefield for the last hour, would Amaram have entered the battle? Would Amaram have the same appearance of imminent victory? Why would Helaran ride all the way around, to strike at Amaram from behind, when it's equally possible to approach from the front and have the same result? A Shardbearer would ordinarily outclass everyone on the field so profoundly it would have the same effect to ride head on. Why does Helaran choose to make this attack so public, when he doesn't even speak to Amaram, or anyone else? It doesn't appear to be an attack of passion. How did he plan to exit the combat? Where would he go? Who was supporting him? Would he have claimed the kill? How? These questions are intriguing even if the Shardblade he's wielding is an ordinary dead Blade. To me, personally, his actions suggest that the attack on Amaram was a message meant for someone else. Appearing as he did seems to have been a psychological attack as well as a physical one. It could be a message for Nale, to prove himself worthy of a spren bond, like Mraize suggests. But while Nale operates comparatively quietly, this would leave a big mark. Wouldn't people talk about the mysterious Shardbearer that killed Amaram, and wonder what happened? The Sadeas Princedom would be destabilized with the loss of the highmarshal, and Alethkar's northern border would be vulnerable. Was that the aim, or just collateral damage? I have no answers for these questions, but I find it really fascinating to think about. Afterwards, Amaram spends some time with his counselors trying to determine the identity of the Shardbearer. They don't know. There's no indication given that they believe he was ever in allied or supported by the army they were fighting against; Amaram, who may believe himself to be more important than he is, suggests Thaidakar and the Ghostbloods to his stormwarden companion. The other army is never even given a confirmed identity (though my guess is someone on the Vamah/Sadeas border). It's impossible to say why he should be so certain of his conclusion, though Alethi engage in espionage on each other all the time. Amaram's stormwarden suggests that he "doesn't recognize him", though later Amaram will explain that the face was destroyed in his counterattack. Amaram goes to some effort to obscure the timeline of his acquisition as well, supplying Dalinar with seventeen witnesses to prove that he only acquired his Shardblade "four months ago, long after [Kaladin's] ledger says you were made a slave." Amaram has a bigger perspective of what might be possible, but he's also very limited as well. I think it's fair to say that communication within the battle might have been delayed, but it wasn't so bad that Kaladin didn't expect to receive aid from the runners after giving his signal, and he isn't even an officer at this point. I also think that Helaran was so obvious, so shiny, it would be difficult to miss him, if not for the fact that he was in Shardplate and on horseback, then because people would give him a huge berth. The Shardblade is six feet long, but there's a limit to its range; he can't, and doesn't, kill everyone who sees him. This, however, might be explained by the movement Kaladin sees in Amaram's ranks just moments before he gallops in. Finally, six thousand, the strength of Amaram's army, is a lot of people, and I can accept it might be difficult to see what's going on at range from a low vantage point. But I also think it would be pretty hard to "ride around" that big of a mass and stay unannounced. In fact, everything Helaran does after appearing is to be extremely flashy and noticeable. It's his arrival that was unexpected. On 6/12/2021 at 7:14 PM, apepi said: My thought, does Honorblades change your eye color like Shardblades do? Do we know the eye color of Halaran, Szeth or the heralds? It appears to do so for darkeyes, but I don't know about lighteyes! Szeth ordinarily has dark green eyes, but while he's fighting Kaladin in WoR, they are pale blue. Szeth states the following about the Honorblade's effects. Quote The moment he summoned his Blade, his eyes would turn from dark green to pale--almost glowing--sapphire, a unique effect of his particular weapon. TWoK 1-3: The Glory of Ignorance When Dalinar gives Bridge Four the Windrunner Honorblade to practice with, it makes Rock's eyes turn pale blue. Quote The Horneater hefted [the Honorblade], curious, and his eyes bled to a glassy blue. OB Chapter 64: Binder of Gods Bonding ordinary dead Shardblades doesn't seem to change the eye color of lighteyes in general. Of the darkeyes who become Radiant, Kaladin's eyes turn a distinctly different color, brown to pale sapphire blue. Other Radiants are either already lighteyed (Shallan, Jasnah, etc). I'd have to do a more thorough search to see if anyone else's eyes change from one color to another, instead of merely lightening (dark green to light, brown to light tan or yellow, etc.) Dalinar, one of the few lighteyes to hold the Windrunner Honorblade, already has light blue eyes. Moash's eyes lighten to pale tan when he bonds the Shardblade that Kaladin gifted to him. In Part 1 of RoW, he has dark eyes in the time that he hasn't summoned his Honorblade. When he does, no mention is made of his eye color; he "shadows his face" with his arm. When Moash and Teft fight at the end of RoW, Teft observes that his eyes are "glowing" but doesn't mention color specifically. In contrast, Taln enters on screen with his Honorblade in his hand, but has dark eyes that get commented on specifically. As a final note, I was re-reading RoW, and found that even Mraize is getting in on the Honorblade guessing game. Quote " ... There are variations on Lightweaving in the cosmere that do not require a spren--plus the Honorblades exist and are poorly tracked these days, even by our agents." "I thought they were all in Shinovar, except the one Moash wields." "They were." Mraize said it simply, directly, with an implication: She wasn't getting any more information on that topic. RoW Chapter 78: The High Judge Aw, c'mon! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AquaRegia Posted June 15, 2021 Report Share Posted June 15, 2021 I love this theory, and I commend you on your exhaustive research. I don't have an overwhelming feeling that it's RIGHT, necessarily, but parts of it make a ton of sense: On 6/6/2021 at 8:52 PM, crème de la crèmling said: This means that Amaram would have had possession of the Lightweaver Honorblade. If he perceived it as an ordinary Shardblade, perhaps he simply never noticed he was holding an Honorblade. I think this would be pretty deeply ironic for the villain who lies to himself about why he does what he does and truly believes his own lies to have the Lightweaver Honorblade. .... Finally, there is the matter of Honorblades' behavior. When Taln drops his Honorblade, it doesn't vanish. This is meant to be a big clue as to its nature. Amaram drops Helaran's Blade twice in his fight with Kaladin, and it vanishes. Szeth also drops Jezrien's Blade in the fight with Gavilar, and the “bond” so to speak doesn’t appear to be broken. Szeth is able to resummon the Honorblade after being parted from it. No mention is made of where it ended up or if it vanished as he dropped it. My only explanation for this is that perception could be at work here. Szeth believes that the Honorblade should take ten heartbeats to summon, and it does. Perhaps Amaram likewise believes that a Shardblade should vanish when it is dropped, and so as it leaves his hand, it vanishes. Ishar demonstrates that the Honorblade, like a living Shardblade, can wink out of existence for a second and return in a flash. The idea that Amaram had an Honorblade in his hands - but didn't know it - is exactly the kind of delicious irony Brandon loves to lay on us. I completely agree with your assertion that PERCEPTION is critical in bonding and using any Shardblade. We've already discussed the fact that Shallan "knows" that it takes ten heartbeats to summon her Blade, so of course it does... even though we now know her Blade had to be a bonded spren, Pattern or Testament, every single time. I have no doubt we will see more "bending" of the rules, simply because the rules we and the characters know have never REALLY been the true rules. I also have little doubt we'll learn more about Helaran's mysterious and largely unexplained appearance in that battle. Well done! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted June 15, 2021 Report Share Posted June 15, 2021 (edited) On 6/6/2021 at 8:52 PM, crème de la crèmling said: What did he think Jasnah, Shallan, and Helaran were up to, then? Shallan is at the Shattered Plains, but though he suspects her of Surgebinding, she doesn’t apparently warrant activating their agents. He breezes right past her miraculous survival. He doesn't fret about her coming into contact with Szeth at all. But that makes sense if Taravangian knows that the Honorblades are no longer in the Shin's possession, and haven't been for years. He may be assuming Shallan's Surgebinding ability, whatever it is, is granted by a Blade that she was trained to use. The odds of a civilian attempting to fight Szeth are pretty low. No matter her surgebinding Shallan was not combat capable and would have been evacuated from any area that Szeth was in immediately. On 6/6/2021 at 8:52 PM, crème de la crèmling said: To summarize: I think it’s possible that Helaran was given the Lightweaver Honorblade by Nale, who gained access to it when Ishar reclaimed his own Honorblade. It’s not clear to me why he would do that, although Mraize says that Helaran was recruited with “displays of power” and that Helaran impressed Nale. Could Nale have shown Helaran how it would be possible to Surgebind without bonding a Cryptic? Dalinar saw nine honorblades in vision. Given he has seen Amaram's on at least two occasions and no two are alike he would have recognized it if it belonged to Shallash. Edited June 15, 2021 by Karger 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crème de la crèmling Posted June 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2021 23 minutes ago, Karger said: The odds of a civilian attempting to fight Szeth are pretty low. No matter her surgebinding Shallan was not combat capable and would have been evacuated from any area that Szeth was in immediately. I would argue that Taravangian doesn't have nearly the same reaction regarding Shallan's supposed surgebinding as he does for Kaladin's. If he assumes they are both surgebinders via spren, why wouldn't he do the same thing to track Shallan? Not being combat capable doesn't necessarily preclude somebody from entering into combat. Even if she would be evacuated, as Elhokar was, the way Szeth has struck in the past has led him into contact with nearby civilians, and their Alethi spies would have informed them that Shallan would be around the Kholin family. It seems to me his spren-based epiphany is solely reserved for "the bridgeman" and not for Shallan (or even Jasnah, though at this point she is 'dead'). When I read the scene, it seems to me like he's re-reading something that he had forgotten was even a possibility, whereas he had weighed Shallan's situation, and found it unimportant. However, his distress is partially because the Diagram is "off." It could very well be that because Shallan is somehow accounted for in his estimation, he doesn't feel the same anxiety about Szeth encountering her--as you suggest, maybe the odds are simply too low to be reckoned, or he feels the Diagram has ruled it out. 39 minutes ago, Karger said: Dalinar saw nine honorblades in vision. Given he has seen Amaram's on at least two occasions and no two are alike he would have recognized it if it belonged to Shallash. I addressed, too. To summarize, Dalinar has seen these, and he even suggests having Shallan do drawings. I can't find evidence that she actually did any. However, when he encounters Ishar, he only finds Ishar's Blade to be "vaguely familiar." Whether this is because there is something wrong with the Blade, the visions, his memory, or even the continuity between books is unclear to me. You are absolutely right, in my opinion, to raise it as a point against. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamwa1ker Posted June 22, 2021 Report Share Posted June 22, 2021 On 6/11/2021 at 3:30 PM, crème de la crèmling said: Here's an interesting bit that I initially forgot about, though: Quote [Cenn] leaned back, staring up at the sky. He could hear faint thunder. That was odd. The sky was cloudless. Dallet cursed. Cenn turned, shocked out of his stupor. Galloping directly toward them was a massive black horse bearing a rider in gleaming armor that seemed to radiate light. TWoK Chapter 1: Stormblessed That's something else to consider! Air-dropped in by a Skybreaker, perhaps? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bejarden Posted June 23, 2021 Report Share Posted June 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Dreamwa1ker said: Air-dropped in by a Skybreaker, perhaps? I think that line is just a poetic way of saying hoofbeats 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waffles Posted June 30, 2021 Report Share Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) Dalinar's visions were a year prior to meeting Ishar. Its perfectly possible the memory of the blade is vague at this point, but he absolutely would have recognized Amaram's blade at the time Edited June 30, 2021 by Waffles 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Bzhydack Posted July 1, 2021 Report Share Posted July 1, 2021 There is also another difference between dead Shardblade and Honorblade. Very distinctive one. Honorblade is smaller than dead Shardblade, as we've seen in the case of Jezrien's blade. IT Has to be smaller, because Has to be practical as a weapon, while Shardblade whan alive, can change size and shape, so don't need to be "practical". Heck, I even think Spren wanted to be unpractical when they and Radiant decid break Bonds. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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