The Real Child Champion Theory

[Bejarden]

So I seem to see that a lot of people here don’t like the Child Champion Theory

This is to be expected as saying those words mean absolutely nothing, so I’m going to write what I interpret it to mean 

Gavinor is Odiums Champion while Dalinar is his own Champion, that is the only way it works (which is why TOdium wants to know who Dalinar will pick as a Champion)

It also will happen around part 2 or 3 of KoW for reasons that will become apparent 

Here’s how it goes

Spoiler

It’s the tenth day

Everyone is waiting with baited breath 

Dalinar is on the top of Urithiru waiting for TOdiums champion, then suddenly Gavinor appears 

Dalinar is torn: Should he kill the Child, Should he let the Child win, or should he end the contest and release Odium

So you see we have three options here

1: End the Contest (if that’s even possible)-

2: Let Gavinor win

3: Kill Gavinor

Option 1

Spoiler

This will not happen

Dalinar will not release Odium onto the Cosmere and give  give up Alethkar to save a life, even one as innately innocent as a child’s 

Maybe he would give up Alethkar but not release Odium

Option 2

Spoiler

Again won’t happen

Purely because on a narrative standpoint it’s dumb and has bad suicidal messaging

That leaves us with Option 3

Spoiler

So picture this:

Dalinar kills a child, the one thing the Blackthorn would not do (OB flashbacks the Rift) a horrible thing by anyone’s standard, even if it was necessary 

His brothers Grandson, his nephews son, someone he loves 

Navani would hate him, even irrationally, and Kaladin won’t be there to tell him it’s ok to kill to protect

The grief would naw at him for the rest of the book, he sees that Taravangian was correct, he is a hypocrite, and a monster 

But eventually (in a climactic part 5) he turns back to Odium becoming the Blackthorn once more (undoing the OB climax) and tearing havoc across the Cosmere

 

A few things to add on to the end

1: Taravangian doesn’t want to win. He’s human and has only ever wanted for humanity to survive. If he can have Dalinar win the Contest and also have Dalinar as his right hand man, and willingly to boot, I think he’d take it

2: As people have pointed out Gavilar is probably alive, so he could whisper and push Dalinar off the deep end (I think Gavilars pretty evil)

3: What else can happen, I haven’t seen that many alternatives to the Champion Theories that factor in loopholes in a meaningful way

Problems people have pointed out: (preemptive  response)

Spoiler

 

So some people say that a Child cannot be willing, which doesn’t make much sense:

Someone can be willing to do something they don’t fully understand, and this makes it harder to cope with killing them: They didn’t fully know what they were doing

 

Deathrattles:

Spoiler

 

"I'm standing over the body of a brother. I'm weeping. Is that his blood or mine? What have we done?" (Gavinor can be interpreted into this in my opinionif he some how cut Dalinar or something)   "I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw." (Gavinor is a child)

 

[Karger]

This interpretation actually does work to address most of my concerns with the theory.  I may not like it personally but it works.  On the other hand it does have a few problems. 

1. If TOdium wants to loose can't he choose a better way to throw the match.  How about just forfeiting by not showing up? 
2. A child still cannot present any real threat to Dalinar.  Since no length of time for the contest is specified it effectively lets Dalinar just pin Gavinor and find a way to win on a technicality(turn Gav into a CS for example)
3. Odium itself is not necessarily under Taravangian's control whatever Cultivation says so expecting him to want to loose is a bit odd.
4. If Taravangian thinks he can get Dalinar's willing cooperation then wouldn't a better strategy be to approach him more openly?  It would be considerably easier and given how Dalinar hates subterfuge it might even be more likely to work.

None of these are insurmountable problems if Brandon decides he wants to go this way but they are certainly issues he would have to work around.

[Bejarden]

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

If TOdium wants to loose can't he choose a better way to throw the match.  How about just forfeiting by not showing up? 

He wants Dalinar

 

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

A child still cannot present any real threat to Dalinar.  Since no length of time for the contest is specified it effectively lets Dalinar just pin Gavinor and find a way to win on a technicality(turn Gav into a CS for example)

I don’t think Dalinar is so smart to figure this out to him it’s two options:

Win or lose

I doubt he even knows CS exists (Jasnah does but she probably would rather not interfere and win cleanly with no loopholes)

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

Odium itself is not necessarily under Taravangian's control whatever Cultivation says so expecting him to want to loose is a bit odd.

Taravangian is under control, I think that’s exactly what the scene with him is saying

He can control the Power with little effort

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

1. If Taravangian thinks he can get Dalinar's willing cooperation then wouldn't a better strategy be to approach him more openly?  It would be considerably easier and given how Dalinar hates subterfuge it might even be more likely to work.

 

Dalinar does not trust Taravangian he will only turn to him if heavily under pressure and not thinking clearly

I do think it’s possible for Taravangian to approach him before (if he can get him outside Urithiru)

8 minutes ago, Karger said:

This interpretation actually does work to address most of my concerns with the theory.  I may not like it personally but it works. 

That is the idea I’m trying to make a minority theory not seem as stupid as people dismiss it as

To me it’s a really good possibility of happening 

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I don’t think Dalinar is so smart to figure this out to him it’s two options:

Win or lose

I doubt he even knows CS exists (Jasnah does but she probably would rather not interfere and win cleanly with no loopholes)

The idea is that Dalinar would just pin the kid and then ask around for advice.  He can check with the Stormfather to see if he is cheating but I don't see how that would count.

2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Dalinar does not trust Taravangian he will only turn to him if heavily under pressure and not thinking clearly

I do think it’s possible for Taravangian to approach him before (if he can get him outside Urithiru)

Before you said willing cooperation and that is not what you are saying here.  I really don't see how a broken Dalinar would be particularly useful.  Doesn't Dalinar's importance come from the fact that he wouldn't break?

3 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Taravangian is under control, I think that’s exactly what the scene with him is saying

He can control the Power with little effort

You can check the WoBs if you need to but even Sazed who is not influenced by the powers due to their balancing, was a highly scrupulous, and a strong willed individual has trouble controlling his shards.  There is a reason we call them vessels.  They control you as much or more then you control them.  Taravangian is guiding the power more then controlling it.

43 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Taravangian doesn’t want to win. He’s human and has only ever wanted for humanity to survive. If he can have Dalinar win the Contest and also have Dalinar as his right hand man, and willingly to boot, I think he’d take it

Why not instead reveal himself to Dalinar and say that he will forfeit the match in exchange for whatever he wants Dalinar to do?  Also isn't that a contradiction?  TOdium looses the match as of Dalinar killing Gavinor and neither of them could really do anything about it at that point.  The real problem with all champion theories is that we don't really know what TOdium wants so speculating on how he is trying to get it is pretty difficult.

[+Bzhydack]

The biggest problem with this theory is:

How TOdium would convince Gavinor to fight against his Uncle? Any emotion manipulation would be consider as breaking the contract.

I Cannot see other possibility than offering Moash to kill and get revenge, but even then this is very unlikly. Gavinor loves his Uncle more than he hates Moash.

10 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He wants Dalinar

RAYSE wanted Dalinar. And this don't need to be true for Taravangian.

11 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I don’t think Dalinar is so smart to figure this out to him it’s two options:

Win or lose

I think you underestimate him. If he would be fighting against someone he doesnt want to kill, he would figure this out. As Karger pointed out, content have no time limit.

[Bejarden]

Just now, Bzhydack said:

How TOdium would convince Gavinor to fight against his Uncle? Any emotion manipulation would be consider as breaking the contract.

He could convince Gavinor that Dalinar is the reason Elhokar is dead 

(Dalinar made Elhokar self conscious which made Elhokar go to Kholinar which made Moash kill him, it’s twisted but Gavinor is 6)

2 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

RAYSE wanted Dalinar. And this don't need to be true for Taravangian

So why the Storms does Taravangian want to win the Contest? 
Why does he care?

 

3 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

I think you underestimate him. If he would be fighting against someone he doesnt want to kill, he would figure this out. As Karger pointed out, content have no time limit.

Gavinor could be put in starved or something with a poison in him that will kill him in an hour but not harming him until then

TOdium will figure it out

(This has to work because if Dalinar gets food poisoning from his chicken before the match I have a hard time believing that invalidates the Contest)

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

Before you said willing cooperation and that is not what you are saying here.  I really don't see how a broken Dalinar would be particularly useful.  Doesn't Dalinar's importance come from the fact that he wouldn't break?

He would be broken and then reforged as the Blackthorn (Sorry if I didn’t make that clear)

 

8 minutes ago, Karger said:

Why not instead reveal himself to Dalinar and say that he will forfeit the match in exchange for whatever he wants Dalinar to do?  Also isn't that a contradiction?  TOdium looses the match as of Dalinar killing Gavinor and neither of them could really do anything about it at that point.  The real problem with all champion theories is that we don't really know what TOdium wants so speculating on how he is trying to get it is pretty difficult.

Let me pose this question back

Why not go talk to Dalinar saying he loves humans more than Singers and will give up the Contest in exchange for him?

Why wouldn’t Dalinar say yes, it would be incredibly selfish to say no

This is a whole in every theory equally

An answer could be that Dalinar will not leave Urithiru for 10 days

11 minutes ago, Karger said:

You can check the WoBs if you need to but even Sazed who is not influenced by the powers due to their balancing, was a highly scrupulous, and a strong willed individual has trouble controlling his shards.  There is a reason we call them vessels.  They control you as much or more then you control them.  Taravangian is guiding the power more then controlling it.

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

It gets more powerful over time and TOdium is very new

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Why not go talk to Dalinar saying he loves humans more than Singers and will give up the Contest in exchange for him?

Why wouldn’t Dalinar say yes, it would be incredibly selfish to say no

This is a whole in every theory equally

Not really.  That theory only works if Taravangian is willing to stay away from all humans forever and I seriously doubt he would be willing to do that.

[Bejarden]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Not really.  That theory only works if Taravangian is willing to stay away from all humans forever and I seriously doubt he would be willing to do that.

No... 

he can just make a deal not to harm any of them, and to be a friend of the humans as long as he’s Odium

Anyway why is this only a hole in the CCT

[+Bzhydack]

13 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He could convince Gavinor that Dalinar is the reason Elhokar is dead 

(Dalinar made Elhokar self conscious which made Elhokar go to Kholinar which made Moash kill him, it’s twisted but Gavinor is 6)

And Gavinor will belive him? Even 6 Years old boy is Smart enough to not trust someone who corrupted his mother and gives order to kill his father. He also knows his father was a HERO who was killed fighting against THIS EXACT ENEMY. Also, his now closest family is Adolin. He would not fight against his father.

I don't see this without really twisted, complex and unbelivable manipulation. Gavinor even Cannot sign a contract, because he don't know how to write.

[Bejarden]

4 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

And Gavinor will belive him? Even 6 Years old boy is Smart enough to not trust someone who corrupted his mother and gives order to kill his father.

He doesn’t know what Taravangian or that he is Odium or even who corrupted Asuedan

All he knows is that the nice old man is telling him stuff when no one else will

5 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

He also knows his father was a HERO who was killed fighting against THIS EXACT ENEMY.

All he knows is dada died fighting the “enemy” that’s all they would tell a 6 year old 

Taravangian is not that enemy, at least in Gavinors eyes

6 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Gavinor even Cannot sign a contract, because he don't know how to write.

He has to be Willing, not sign a Contract 

[Use the Falchion]

53 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

How TOdium would convince Gavinor to fight against his Uncle? Any emotion manipulation would be consider as breaking the contract.

Citation for emotional manipulation or convincing? Because I can see Odium convincing Gavinor very easily with just three things:

1. Homeland - Gavinor will get Alethkar back. (Technically true if either side wins, but Gavinor doesn't need to know that.)

2. Peace - Gavinor can end this entire war, and won't have to hurt a single living soul. (Also true, since Taravangian knows that Dalinar won't break his Oaths to kill a child, and won't break his bond with his family to kill another member of it.)

3. Revenge - Gavinor wants to kill Moash. He wants to train to kill Moash. Taravangian can offer him up on a silver plater. 

 

So you're a six year old, hungry for revenge and wanting to help out, and you're told that you can do so if you just choose to be a Champion - a hero! - for one day, and you can have everything you want. Just go to the top of your house at this time, say this line, and you're good! ...I can imagine that sounding like a good deal for a kid. 

 

12 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

HERO who was killed fighting against THIS EXACT ENEMY.

Depending on how you frame it (aka from a certain point of view), that's not entirely true. How easy would it be for Taravangian to appear to Gavinor in, say, a dream, and say "hey, I'm a friend of your grandfather's. I knew him really well. I'm in a tough bind. You see, your ultimate enemy is dead because I killed them, but now I've been forced into a position that isn't good. I want to save everyone. Don't you want to save people too, Gavinor? Can you help me? Can you be my hero - my champion?" Heck, even Dalinar thought Rayse was Honor the first time they met, with all of that gold and white. Why can't Taravangian pull a similar thing?

 

Back to OP - 

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

3: What else can happen, I haven’t seen that many alternatives to the Champion Theories that factor in loopholes in a meaningful way

Dalinar uses the powers of an unchecked and special Bondsmith to alter the Connection of the Champions and the Champions themselves. In my personal theory, I think Dalinar will take on the role of becoming Odium's Champion, while switching his role as Honor's Champion to someone else (either Taln or Szeth*), and then passing his Connection to the Stormfather to a third person (Kaladin). 

So Taln, sane by Dalinar's swearing of the fourth/fifth Ideal, knows what he must do. (Or Szeth, commanded by Dalinar, knows what he must do.) Dalinar dies, after Ascending and being Invested, and...I don't know what happens to him after that, honestly. 

But the Contest of Champions as a whole is muddied for a time. Yes, Honor won, but Odium's Champion wasn't willingly chosen by Odium (aka the chooser). Does that negate the rules? Are they enforced? I have my own theories about what that would mean, but I think as a whole, this would be a loophole enough. 

 

*It really depends on how much foresight Dalinar has. Because Nightblood erasing his soul may be a better fate than dying to save the world, and then still having to become a weapon of Odium due to a technicality. 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Use the Falchion

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

That leaves us with Option 3

  Hide contents

So picture this:

Dalinar kills a child, the one thing the Blackthorn would not do (OB flashbacks the Rift) a horrible thing by anyone’s standard, even if it was necessary 

His brothers Grandson, his nephews son, someone he loves 

Navani would hate him, even irrationally, and Kaladin won’t be there to tell him it’s ok to kill to protect

The grief would naw at him for the rest of the book, he sees that Taravangian was correct, he is a hypocrite, and a monster 

But eventually (in a climactic part 5) he turns back to Odium becoming the Blackthorn once more (undoing the OB climax) and tearing havoc across the Cosmere

 

 

Well that's one way to ruin a book. Handsdown the worst ending possible.

 

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Taravangian is under control, I think that’s exactly what the scene with him is saying

He can control the Power with little effort

Taravangian cannot control Odium with "Little effort" he had to activly fight it's desire to destroy from the instant he acsended.

 

56 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

So why the Storms does Taravangian want to win the Contest? 
Why does he care?

Taravangian wants out of the deal that binds him to Roshar

Odium is the one that wants to win.

 

2 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

3: What else can happen, I haven’t seen that many alternatives to the Champion Theories that factor in loopholes in a meaningful way

Litterally anything else

Given that it's Szeths book Taravangian is probably going to try and get him to attack the Champion before the duel.

[Bejarden]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Taravangian cannot control Odium with "Little effort" he had to activly fight it's desire to destroy from the instant he acsended.

 

And was able to 

very easily

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Taravangian wants out of the deal that binds him to Roshar

Odium is the one that wants to win.

 

Nothing in there has anything about releasing him

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Given that it's Szeths book Taravangian is probably going to try and get him to attack the Champion before the duel.

What would this do?

It won’t be Dalinar breaking the Contract so that wouldn’t release Odium and then Dalinar is just mad at Szeth

 Also The Contract has to mean unharmed in the way that Dalinar has to agree to the harming (if that makes sense) 

Because if it isn’t and somebody bangs into The Champion by accident that can be interpreted as harming

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

And was able to 

very easily

It's not over, and it was not easy, that was very clearly something that Odium is pushing Taravangian to do, and it will grow harder to resist every second. There where quite clearly two trains of thought, that isn't good for King T.

5 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Nothing in there has anything about releasing him

  If the terms are broken the contract is null and the violating party is within the power of the other

Quote

"'Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same but reversed, if you break the contract." -RoW page 1174

 

11 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

What would this do?

It won’t be Dalinar breaking the Contract so that wouldn’t release Odium and then Dalinar is just mad at Szeth

 Also The Contract has to mean unharmed in the way that Dalinar has to agree to the harming (if that makes sense) 

Because if it isn’t and somebody bangs into The Champion by accident that can be interpreted as harming

But it isn't just Dalinar they go over how it is thier sides not just them.

Quote

"'We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top floor of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side's forces." RoW page 1178

 

[Bejarden]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Quote

"'Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same but reversed, if you break the contract." -RoW page 1174

 

20 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Put an emphasis on the you 

 

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

But it isn't just Dalinar they go over how it is thier sides not just them.

Yes it might invalidate the contract

But it wouldn’t release Odium

[Frustration]

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

Put an emphasis on the you 

It's in the text.

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

Yes it might invalidate the contract

But it wouldn’t release Odium

The contract is what prevents Odium from leaving, Honor's bands MIGHT still hold after that, maybe.

But even if they did it gives Odium the option to leave Roshar, instead of being impossible

[Bejarden]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It's in the text.

The contract is what prevents Odium from leaving, Honor's bands MIGHT still hold after that, maybe.

But even if they did it gives Odium the option to leave Roshar, instead of being impossible

No I meant it will invalidate the Champion Contract which has nothing to do with what’s holding Odium

Having someone attack TOdiums champion against Dalinars wishes will accomplish nothing for TOdium

[Frustration]

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

No I meant it will invalidate the Champion Contract which has nothing to do with what’s holding Odium

Having someone attack TOdiums champion against Dalinars wishes will accomplish nothing for TOdium

The terms of the contract forbid Odium from leaving the Rosharan system.

And Szeth being sworn to Dalinar cannot do anything that cannot be traced to him, so, therefore, it works, and requires significantly less streatching than Gavilnor.

[Bejarden]

There’s a key word there 

“Remain” (imprisoned)

implying even without this contract he can’t leave

@Frustration

Edited June 6, 2021 by Bejardin1250

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

There’s a key word there 

“Remain” (imprisoned)

implying even without this contract he can’t leave

@Frustration

without the contract he culd eventually leave once he freed himself.

With it he will never be able to leave.

[Bejarden]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

without the contract he culd eventually leave once he freed himself.

With it he will never be able to leave.

So if I understand you

Its easier to release yourself from one contract than two

If I’m correct in thinking that: I think what the 2nd contract says is just that they are sustaining the first contract with Honor and if you take away contract 1 he is freed regardless of contract 2

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Bejardin1250 said:

So if I understand you

Its easier to release yourself from one contract than two

If I’m correct in thinking that: I think what the 2nd contract says is just that they are sustaining the first contract with Honor and if you take away contract 1 he is freed regardless of contract 2

he wasn't bound to Roshar by an oath, he was bound, likely in a similar way to Ruin,

An Oath makes it impossible for him to leave, ever.

[Bejarden]

Just now, Frustration said:

he wasn't bound to Roshar by an oath, he was bound, likely in a similar way to Ruin,

An Oath makes it impossible for him to leave, ever.

I don’t think that’s what it implies 

  “If I win that Contest you will remain Bound to the System” RoW 1178

that’s what it says, I don’t think that’s adding anything to the original agreement with Honor

Its basically saying either way the agreement remains

[Frustration]

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

I don’t think that’s what it implies 

  “If I win that Contest you will remain Bound to the System” RoW 1178

that’s what it says, I don’t think that’s adding anything to the original agreement with Honor

Its basically saying either way the agreement remains

There was no agreement.

Honor got no agreement from Odium, he simply bound him to the system, likely using his own mind, similar to what Leras did to Ruin.

[Bejarden]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

There was no agreement.

Honor got no agreement from Odium, he simply bound him to the system, likely using his own mind, similar to what Leras did to Ruin.

Agreement

Bound

Trapped

Contract

whatever it’s beside the point, at the end of the day it will remain