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Is Ishar trying to making new Heralds


bmcclure7

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12 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

Untrue.  We do not know how bodies were provided for the Heralds when they returned.... but if they were indeed normal "true physical bodies", Kalak would have been able to walk away from Roshar and Worldhop to another planet, as he desperately wants.  The fact that the Heralds are some kind of Cognitive Shadows, tied to Roshar, prevents this.

Um, no, Vasher and Kelsier can't leave their home planets without pulling some shenanigins and they uses their own bodies.

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On 9/23/2021 at 0:42 PM, AquaRegia said:

Untrue.  We do not know how bodies were provided for the Heralds when they returned.... but if they were indeed normal "true physical bodies", Kalak would have been able to walk away from Roshar and Worldhop to another planet, as he desperately wants.  The fact that the Heralds are some kind of Cognitive Shadows, tied to Roshar, prevents this.

Knights radiance can't leave roshar either neither can fused both have regular human bodies. I don't think them been trapped on roshar has anything to do with their bodies.

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On 9/22/2021 at 2:46 PM, Honorless said:

It it though? The Heralds are Cognitive Shadows, we don't know what the deal with their bodies is. Originally they were supposed to function like the Fused iirc

And the WoB I said that in response to seems to hint at something being different about the Herald's Physical body, perhaps due to it being a construct of in some way? (But functionally, aren't all bodies in the Cosmere constructs of their Spiritweb? Idk)

 

 

 

On 9/22/2021 at 2:46 PM, Honorless said:

It it though? The Heralds are Cognitive Shadows, we don't know what the deal with their bodies is. Originally they were supposed to function like the Fused iirc

And the WoB I said that in response to seems to hint at something being different about the Herald's Physical body, perhaps due to it being a construct of in some way? (But functionally, aren't all bodies in the Cosmere constructs of their Spiritweb? Idk)

 

There nothing in that quote about Heralds bodies. 

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1 hour ago, Honorless said:

The WoB says that Kelsier had his original body: his bones and that Ishar did not have this advantage. So, there is something different about Heraldic physiology.

No all that quote says for certain is that kelsier has his bones. Everthing else is speculation. 

If anything it seems to saying the opposite. Ishar's body is his true body were as Kelsier is body snatching some poor mistwraph 

And even if it were what would ishar need a true body for?  It won't help him get off planet (kelsier can't).  It won't help him reproduce (the return can't). It might help him die but he doesn't need a true body for that. (Jezrien didn't)

 

Edited by bmcclure7
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39 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

No all that quote says for certain is that kelsier has his bones. Everthing else is speculation. 

If anything it seems to saying the opposite. Ishar's body is his true body were as Kelsier is body snatching some poor mistwraph 

And even if it were what would ishar need a true body for?  It won't help him get off planet (Kelsier can't).  It won't help him reproduce (the Returned can't). It might help him die but he doesn't need a true body for that. (Jezrien didn't)

No idea what he might need it for, we don't know what exactly he's trying to do. The WoB does mention that Ishar doesn't have the "luxury" of having something with that strong a Connection to him. Though they're not 100% trying to do the same thing, apparently.

Also, do note that the Returned can reproduce, as per the text itself and expanded upon in the annotations. Recall that the Royal Locks in the Idrian royal family come from their ancestor, Vo and the God Emperor of Hallandren can have children, but there's like there's a trick to it.

We also got this WoB recently:

Quote

Kingsdaughter613

I wanted to know if any of the non-Returned Cognitive Shadows have had children?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

and this

Quote

Questioner

Is it possible for Heralds to have children?

Brandon Sanderson

So yes, asterisk.

The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021)

Given Kelsier's personality, I don't think he's looking to die either. Kelsier as Thaidakar seemed to think that whatever's going on with the Heralds might help him learn how to get off-world, as per Mraize but that's not really definitive either way, it could be a shot in the dark or misinterpretation, etc.

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2 hours ago, Honorless said:

No idea what he might need it for, we don't know what exactly he's trying to do. The WoB does mention that Ishar doesn't have the "luxury" of having something with that strong a Connection to him. Though they're not 100% trying to do the same thing, apparently.

Also, do note that the Returned can reproduce, as per the text itself and expanded upon in the annotations. Recall that the Royal Locks in the Idrian royal family come from their ancestor, Vo and the God Emperor of Hallandren can have children, but there's like there's a trick to it.

We also got this WoB recently:

and this

Given Kelsier's personality, I don't think he's looking to die either. Kelsier as Thaidakar seemed to think that whatever's going on with the Heralds might help him learn how to get off-world, as per Mraize but that's not really definitive either way, it could be a shot in the dark or misinterpretation, etc.

 We do know his goal. His goal is to stop odium he has said as much as both insane and sane ishar I don't  how getting a true body ( Assume he doesn't have one) is going to help him accomplish this. 

 

Yes there is apparently some secret way for returned to reproduce but clearly having a "true body " isn't the way or they all could.

Edited by bmcclure7
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46 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 We do know his goal. His goal is to stop odium he has said as much as both insane and sane ishar I don't  how getting a true body ( Assume he doesn't have one) is going to help him accomplish this. 

 

Yes there is apparently some secret way for returned to reproduce but clearly having a "true body " isn't the way or they all could.

We know his overarching goal, not what he was trying to achieve by those experimentations. This entire theory is about what possible goal that research was for.

I'm not sure what exactly you're asserting by the bottom paragraph

Edited by Honorless
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3 minutes ago, Honorless said:

We know his overarching goal not what he was trying to achieve by those experimentations. This entire theory is about what possible goal that research was for.

I'm not sure what exactly you're asserting by the bottom paragraph

You were saying that returned can have children and I responded that the fact that most return cant proved that have true body is not the key to cognate shadow reproduction. 

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3 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

You were saying that returned can have children and I responded that the fact that most return cant proved that have true body is not the key to cognate shadow reproduction. 

Ah, okay, do keep in mind that we don't really know what the "trick" in question is and the Returned are apparently capable of at least limited shape-shifting (hence Vivenna's abilities, also directly confirmed with Denth, and explanation regarding the Returned in the Hallandren Court of the Gods looking their societal perception of godly perfection). So for all we know, Returned are different than other Cognitive Shadows in this aspect.

Another, even more important thing to note, the Returned also have their original bodies, technically. Their Cognitive Shadow is stapled back to their own body, the Divine Breath just alters it. Heralds do not have their original bodies (and given the no. of Desolations, their original bodies are likely long since dust)

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Love this theory, especially with kelsier and the ghostbloods - maybe ishar having a way to bring the cognitive into the physical is going to have an impact with kelsier considering he is so tied to Scadrial, and is actively looking for a way (through the ghostbloods) to leave Scadrial, which is one of the reasons he is so interested in the heralds in the first place (as they have a similar affliction except with Roshar) [RoW Ch 13, 82, 115]

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