bmcclure7

Is Ishar trying to making new Heralds

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Give we are told by ishar that he is trying to  bring back the oathpack. Given that we are told several times that cognitive shadows are closer to Spren then they are to people. Given that the key difference between the Heralds and other connective creatures are there physical bodies. Given that we see ishar trying to give physical bodies to cognitive beings in the form of high Spren. 

Is ishar trying to figure out how to give a cognitive being a physical body? If so dose he intended to use this to create new Heralds to replace the old broken ones?

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OOOOOh I never thought of that. It seems rather implausible, we have a better explanation for the spren already, but maybe!

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I think so too. That would combine his plan to reset the Oathpact with the strange experiments. Since Ishar sees himself as a God and "bearer of the Oathpact" it may fit with his madness to try to create an "improved" Oathpact. One of the reasons the oathpact did not work was because the heralds were able to break their oaths. Spren according to the Stormfather cannot do that.

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On 4.6.2021 at 2:38 PM, bmcclure7 said:

Is ishar trying to figure out how to give a cognitive being a physical body? If so dose he intended to use this to create new Heralds to replace the old broken ones?

No. He would experiment with temporary cognitive shadows or animal spren.

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Somehow I read the title as "Ishar is trying to making new friends", and it sounds adorable. 

I don't think he wants to make new Heralds but make himself into a physical being.

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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

He would experiment with temporary cognitive shadows or animal spren.

Regardless of his goal, I agree that Ishar would start with animal spren. However, he would probably have the same problems as with Cryptics. Their bodies just don't work in the PR. (Perhaps the Spren horses could be similar enough) So after a short time he would have to try that with other beings.

 

What exactly do you mean by "temporary cognitive shadows."? People who have just died?

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12 minutes ago, Aglaia said:

What exactly do you mean by "temporary cognitive shadows."? People who have just died?

Yes.

 

1 hour ago, ScadrianTank said:

I don't think he wants to make new Heralds but make himself into a physical being.

Then he would kill people and immediately reincarnate them. Why test with spren to incarnate a human cognitive shadow, if you can use human cognitive shadows?

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Thanks for the answer. I did not think of this possibility.

 

Of course, there could be reasons why he can't use temporary cognitive shadows. Maybe they are disappearing too quickly.

I think you are right though. They would be a better option for his experiments, if he wanted to create a body for himself.

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On 6/5/2021 at 11:03 AM, Oltux72 said:

No. He would experiment with temporary cognitive shadows or animal spren.

Why?

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On 6/4/2021 at 9:06 PM, Morningtide said:

OOOOOh I never thought of that. It seems rather implausible, we have a better explanation for the spren already, but maybe!

What explaination?

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On 6/5/2021 at 11:54 AM, ScadrianTank said:

Somehow I read the title as "Ishar is trying to making new friends", and it sounds adorable. 

I don't think he wants to make new Heralds but make himself into a physical being.

 That doesn't really work with his plan to reset the oathpack.  And we have no guarantee that's what is actually happening to the Spren. 

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1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

 That doesn't really work with his plan to reset the oathpack.  And we have no guarantee that's what is actually happening to the Spren.

He only mentioned resetting the Oathpack when he was sane, so they aren't necessarily connected.

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4 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Why?

  • much easier to get
  • much closer to his eventual targets

Getting sentient spren is a serious hassle. You need to send whole troops of soldiers into Shadesmar to capture them. Anything else would be easier.

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On 6/5/2021 at 1:07 PM, Oltux72 said:

Yes.

 

Then he would kill people and immediately reincarnate them. Why test with spren to incarnate a human cognitive shadow, if you can use human cognitive shadows?

 Last I remember it's not particularly easy to make a cognitive shadow you need a fair amount of power  Enough to completely replace their soul. It might simply be not economical for him to do that. It's awesome possible he wants to make the new  Heralds from Spren  Which are less changeable more consistent.

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16 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

He only mentioned resetting the Oathpack when he was sane, so they aren't necessarily connected.

 I'm pretty sure there's a word of Brandon That confirms that though he sure is insane all his actions  Are geared towards stoping odium.  Even his in the same South seemed pretty dead set stopping odium in RoW.

13 hours ago, Oltux72 said:
  • much easier to get
  • much closer to his eventual targets

Getting sentient spren is a serious hassle. You need to send whole troops of soldiers into Shadesmar to capture them. Anything else would be easier.

 Is it not possible that he started with animal Spren  And has since furthered his experiments to  High spen? That would be the next logical step after all.

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On 6/7/2021 at 3:52 PM, bmcclure7 said:

 Is it not possible that he started with animal Spren  And has since furthered his experiments to  High spen? That would be the next logical step after all.

My thoughts exactly,we don't know how long he's been at this because I'm pretty sure we didn't get a chance to see how many more bodies he could have had. SF was pretty set on them gtfo of there so who knows

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I figured he had to be working with the ghostbloods to bring Thaidakar, the lord of scars, back to life. Considering it's strongly implied Thaidakar is Kelisier, who is a cognitive shadow, if they can figure out how to bring a spren into the physical realm as a person, it would be possible to revive Kelsier.

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4 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

I figured he had to be working with the ghostbloods to bring Thaidakar, the lord of scars, back to life. Considering it's strongly implied Thaidakar is Kelisier, who is a cognitive shadow, if they can figure out how to bring a spren into the physical realm as a person, it would be possible to revive Kelsier.

I don´t think he is working with the ghostbloods, I think he is doing those things because he is crazy, apart from the ghostbloods they seem more interested in the knowledge that kalak possesses and they are not very interested in ishar so I do not think they are working together

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6 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

I figured he had to be working with the ghostbloods to bring Thaidakar, the lord of scars, back to life. Considering it's strongly implied Thaidakar is Kelisier, who is a cognitive shadow, if they can figure out how to bring a spren into the physical realm as a person, it would be possible to revive Kelsier.

1) This has already been confirmed

2) Kelsier already has a way back into the Physical Realm via some application of hemalurgy. We've known this since Bands of Mourning. His problem isn't a need to get back to the Physical but to find a way to leave Scadrial.

3) As mentioned, all the evidence is that the Ghostbloods are interested in Kalak's research (which is directly related to what we know Kelsier wants to be able to do, namely leave the system he's bound to) while having no demonstrated interest in Ishar's work.

EDIT: Oh, and he wouldn't say that Kelsier and Ishar have similar goals, per a recent WoB.

Edited by Weltall
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18 hours ago, Weltall said:

1) This has already been confirmed

2) Kelsier already has a way back into the Physical Realm via some application of hemalurgy. We've known this since Bands of Mourning. His problem isn't a need to get back to the Physical but to find a way to leave Scadrial.

3) As mentioned, all the evidence is that the Ghostbloods are interested in Kalak's research (which is directly related to what we know Kelsier wants to be able to do, namely leave the system he's bound to) while having no demonstrated interest in Ishar's work.

EDIT: Oh, and he wouldn't say that Kelsier and Ishar have similar goals, per a recent WoB.

Dang, I haven't gone through all the questions and answers posted online. I just figured that Kelsier couldn't revive himself permanently with Hemalurgy, and had to rely on coming back for short periods of time; the avatar that Mraize mentioned. 

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3 hours ago, Honorless said:

Ishar is... trying to give himself a true Physical Body instead of a Herald's body or something along those lines then? 

 We have no evidence to suppose that he doesn't have a true physical body.  His body behaves in every way as a true physical body so so I think we can assume until said otherwise that it is a true physical body

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12 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 We have no evidence to suppose that he doesn't have a true physical body.  His body behaves in every way as a true physical body so so I think we can assume until said otherwise that it is a true physical body

It it though? The Heralds are Cognitive Shadows, we don't know what the deal with their bodies is. Originally they were supposed to function like the Fused iirc

And the WoB I said that in response to seems to hint at something being different about the Herald's Physical body, perhaps due to it being a construct of in some way? (But functionally, aren't all bodies in the Cosmere constructs of their Spiritweb? Idk)

Quote

Questioner

With regards to certain experiments, would it be fair to say Ishar and a certain Scadrian have similar goals? 

Brandon Sanderson

*hesitation noises* I don't know that I would say that 100%. The certain Scadrian you reference has been able to achieve the goals that he wants. Let's see if I can circumlocute this: there's a certain set of bones floating around that already has a Connection to this individual, which was useful in achieving what he wanted to do, which is not a luxury that Ishar has

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

 

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22 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 We have no evidence to suppose that he doesn't have a true physical body.  His body behaves in every way as a true physical body so so I think we can assume until said otherwise that it is a true physical body

Untrue.  We do not know how bodies were provided for the Heralds when they returned.... but if they were indeed normal "true physical bodies", Kalak would have been able to walk away from Roshar and Worldhop to another planet, as he desperately wants.  The fact that the Heralds are some kind of Cognitive Shadows, tied to Roshar, prevents this.

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