Jump to content

Mitigating the loss of power with time


ScadrianTank

Recommended Posts

Inspired by yet another full Mistborn series reread and my back-and-forth with @Phlipz1 in this topic.

One of the only problems I had with Mistborn Era 2 is how powers are getting weaker, and the Metalborn themselves are getting rarer. We know how to deal with the second one - make another infusion of Preservation's (or maybe even Harmony's) Investiture via Lerasium or otherwise. It's impossible to do at this time, but not difficult if you get the required materials. But with the power loss over time, combined with population growth, Scadrian society will never be able to maintain the strength and commonality of the Metallic Arts. 

And the solution to that is simple - power Allomancy not just with the Investiture you get by burning metal, but also with physical Investiture like the Mist or Stormlight. By this point, we've seen Vin do it twice - once at the end of the Final Empire when Vin killed the Lord Ruler, and yet again during Vin's Ascension to Preservation, during her battle with the Inquisitors at the Hero of Ages. Both times her Allomancy was much stronger than normal. 

There is another time where we might have seen it done - the Bands of Mourning. We saw Marisi and Wax use them with strength equal or exceeding that of the Lord Ruler, but Kelsier hadn't possessed such strength in Allomancy when he lived. There are several reasons for why that might be, from Kelsier becoming Rashek's equal in Allomancy by holding Preservation to Compounding the ability to use the Metallic Arts in such a way that tapping it made one stronger. But now that I read the Compounding version several times, it doesn't make that much sense. Brandon said that Nicrosil Ferichemy works like Copper Feruchemy - something discrete is stored, used, and returned. And it doesn't make sense that tapping the same memory, or the same ability, will make it stronger and/or more detailed. It would be like having two copies of the same file on a hard drive. So I propose that the Bands have a separate layer of nicrosil - filled with the Mist. That would also make this quote by Wax make more sense:

Quote

His resources were diminishing. Not merely the metals inside of him, but the reserves stored inside the Bands. Stores that changed his level of Investiture.

It doesn't make sense that nicrosil stores filled with the ability to use the Metallic arts would run out if they work like a Coppermind. Memories degrade when Feruchemists read the same memory repeatedly or when they don't put it back for long enough for the details to start fading. Wax and Marisi did nothing of the sort, but I suppose that you can say that stored Investiture works differently from Memories. However, if we assume that the ability to use Investiture is not being consumed, but the Mist...

It would also somewhat explain why Thaidakar Kelsier would like to get his hands on some Stormlight trade.

Edited by ScadrianTank
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does stormlight actually help here? The problem with the society getting weaker is a matter of breeding - it doesn’t matter if you can get stormlight for mistborn if you have no more mistborn. Even if they got stormlight there’d be the same amount of people able to use it

It DOES make sense that Preservation-light can be made from RoW’s Navani chapters, so unlimited power mistborn are fully possible for us to see in the future

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, basically, what you are saying is; the Bands of Mourning contained two parts to it; the Investiture, stored in one Nicrosil Metalmind, and then the key to accessing that raw investiture stored in others. Therefore, to use the Bands an individual would draw the investiture in and then use that to fuel the allomancy granted by the bands, with the nicrosilmind acting as an allomantic battery that the people can draw on to fuel their powers. 

I like this theory, 'cos it's very elegant and logical; Wax and Marasi gained extreme amounts of power because they could pull extreme amounts of investiture from the investiture-battery in the Bands through their bodies, so much so that they begin to leak it (Stormlight question mark?), and then channel it to gain the powers of a (powerful) Mistborn.

And so, by extension, you suggest that if the Scadrians could get their hands on Stormlight they could use that to fuel their allomancy, and that if they could breathe in the Stormlight they could use that to fuel their powers?

A problem I see with this is that it doesn't particularly solve either problems Scadrian society is having with power dilution, and here is why; 

           a. This doesn't allow for more people to be Allomancers, it simply makes current ones more powerful
           b. For the people to breathe in Stormlight, they would need to bond a spren, wouldn't they? Otherwise they cannot access the investiture.

Or would Preservation light not require a bond to be accessed? 

Some more, less-important questions I can think of that this raises:

  • If Allomancers are drawing Investiture from the atmosphere, can they function off-world? Other planets likely won't have investiture for free floating around in the air for them to draw on.
  • Conversely, if the background levels of Investiture on Scadrial were higher, would the allomancers be more powerful?
  • How powerful would a Returned Allomancer be? The amount of Investiture they hold supposedly dwarfs most other investiture wielders in the Cosmere...
  • Would an Allomancer bonded to a spren actually be combat-effective? Or would they accidentally burn through their allomantic ability when someone stabs them and their body reflexively heals
  • How does duraluminium fit into this? Or actually, why are metals consumed when burned if they aren't providing investiture and something else is? Does this mean the amount of key used is important? Okay, this question is probably actually important

Anyways, thanks for bringing this theory! 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, lipat97 said:

Does stormlight actually help here? The problem with the society getting weaker is a matter of breeding - it doesn’t matter if you can get stormlight for mistborn if you have no more mistborn. Even if they got stormlight there’d be the same amount of people able to use it

As I said in the op, it's two different problems - one is fewer people with powers, the other is people who have them are weaker. But with the medallions, they already have a technological way to make people Metalborn technologically. And I believe it's likely that Nicrosil Compounding works with the ability to use magic is essentially by making a copy of that Investiture, not making it stronger, denser, etc. Because, again, Nicrosil works like Coperminds, and we've seen there being copies of memories - Sovereign's "coins".

6 hours ago, lipat97 said:

It DOES make sense that Preservation-light can be made from RoW’s Navani chapters,

This is something we knew without Navani and before RoW.  We already know that the mist is Preservations gaseous Investiture and Navani's chapters have nothing about making new Light out of nothing. All she was doing was combing and inverting them, not splitting or making completely new ones. 

6 hours ago, lipat97 said:

so unlimited power mistborn are fully possible for us to see in the future

Like Vin? Three hundred years ago?

4 hours ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

(Stormlight question mark?)

I actually started writing that the Bands might already be powered by Stormlight but cut that out because the description in BoM is clearly of the Mist, and neither Marisi nor Wax experience the storm inside them and so on.

4 hours ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

And so, by extension, you suggest that if the Scadrians could get their hands on Stormlight they could use that to fuel their allomancy, and that if they could breathe in the Stormlight they could use that to fuel their powers?

Probably not. Vasher somehow draws it in, but I thought that the Returned eat Investiture passively and naturally, like photosynthesis, for some time. But if you could get Stormlight into a Metalmind, you probably could power Allomancy with it. 

EDIT: I read what you said incorrectly, and you are right, that's exactly what I'm saying.

4 hours ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

This doesn't allow for more people to be Allomancers, it simply makes current ones more powerful

There is this WoB that says that 16 Mistings and 16 Ferrings of all kinds should be able to create medallions. And having a single Fullborn should make it easier because they can blank their Identity and Compound without additional medallions.

WoB:

Quote

Yata

If you have 32 Misting and Ferring, every kind possible, without using Hemalurgy, you can craft a medallion? Without the aftermath of the--

Brandon Sanderson

So could you craft a medallion... without-- oh. That should be possible, but this is one of the things where I have to dig out the notes and double-check myself. But this should be possible.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)
4 hours ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

Or would Preservation light not require a bond to be accessed? 

If a Scadrian could draw it into the metalmind, they should be good to go because they already have an innate piece of Preservation in their souls. 

4 hours ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

How powerful would a Returned Allomancer be? The amount of Investiture they hold supposedly dwarfs most other investiture wielders in the Cosmere...

Using a Divine Breath to power Allomancy is probably something that a Returned would like to avoid.

4 hours ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

Or actually, why are metals consumed when burned if they aren't providing investiture and something else is? Does this mean the amount of key used is important?

4 hours ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

Therefore, to use the Bands an individual would draw the investiture in and then use that to fuel the allomancy granted by the bands, with the nicrosilmind acting as an allomantic battery that the people can draw on to fuel their powers. 

I see two ways it could go. One, the Bands are designed to work only by fueling Allomancy and Feruchemy with stored Investiture. Like Allomancy in a bottle, where instead of drawing on the infinite power of Preservation in the Spiritual Realm, you draw on finite stores in a battery, but in larger portions. Two, the battery is separate from the part that allows you to use the powers, and if it ran dry, you could still use the abilities with normal strength.

 

Edited by ScadrianTank
Fixed a response and added a WoB.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's a limit to how diluted the power can get, thankfully

Quote

Questioner

In Mistborn, as the Eras are going on, the powers get diluted because of people passing down the bloodlines. Once we reach the Third and Fourth Era, the powers are going to be--won't they be a lot weaker, and not very useful?

Brandon Sanderson

They will become weaker, but there's a maximum level of dilution... There's a maximum level that you can reach pretty quickly, if you're only counting the northern continent. Because of the limited number of progenitors.

So, Era 3 we're not going to have a problem. And they're also trying to figure out ways around this.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

probably same for Feruchemy, which is in a similar state

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

...Feruchemy as an art moved like Allomancy did in that you can have just one of the powers. And we decided... Chemings? What did we decide, Peter? Oh, Ferrings. We decided Ferirngs. We couldn't decide between the two of those. It's in the book somewhere.  But anyway, you can have one Allomantic and one Feruchemical. But not a lot of Mistborn and not a lot of full Feruchemists anymore.

Questioner

Do you explain how the Feruchemists came back, because at the end there were a lot of eunuchs and...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, well, that's one of the reasons why Feruchemy has been split because it's very diluted now. The Terris people did survive because they made it. And so, the genetic code is there.

Questioner

And so, every once in a while, hereditarily, the gene will come up.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. But that's why there aren't very many full-blooded Feruchemists anymore. A thousand years of the Lord Ruler trying to breed it out of the population followed by a cataclysm that destroyed most of the population of the world did them in, yeah.

West Jordan signing (Aug. 4, 2011)

Aside from genetics, how Harmony changed Snapping also had an effect on it, apparently

Quote

Questioner

So, did Sazed change that no more Mistborn are born? Because I noticed that--I know he made Spook one-- in Alloy they talk about Mistborn...

Brandon Sanderson

The idea is-- I won't say absolutely no to Sazed's manipulation. But, there weren't any Mistborn other than him that survived. The Allomantic lines were very diluted. So, his direct descendants-- you might be able to even find one potentially now. Someone might be born, or one might have been born that didn't tell people about it. But in the general public and population, it's just, there's not as much Allomancy around... He did also change Snapping, which had an effect on it.

Firefight Miami signing (Jan. 8, 2015)

 

Someone pointed out a while back that when using the Bands of Mourning, Mist poured out of Marasi, kinda like how Stormlight pours out of Radiants while they're holding it.

 

Edited by Honorless
added link
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

There is this WoB that says that 16 Mistings and 16 Ferrings of all kinds should be able to create medallions. And having a single Fullborn should make it easier because they can blank their Identity and Compound without additional medallions.

Yeah, okay, that makes sense. So instead of boosting everyone's connection to Preservation we are making an artificial connection with the medallions and then providing huge batteries of Investiture to use them

5 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

Two, the battery is separate from the part that allows you to use the powers, and if it ran dry, you could still use the abilities with normal strength.

I suspect it would be this one

Something else I just though of relating to the dilution of the bloodlines: Just get a Radiant who is extremely talented (or maybe not even extremely talented, Jasnah soulcasting Shallan's blood seemed pretty complicated to me with all the blood type and antibodies and that, and she did it with minimal thought) with Soulcasting blood to provide infusions of blood that mimic that of someone powerful, and then hand them out as 'vaccines' against power dilution :D (not a very plausible theory, I know)

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/31/2021 at 10:26 PM, ScadrianTank said:

As I said in the op, it's two different problems - one is fewer people with powers, the other is people who have them are weaker. But with the medallions, they already have a technological way to make people Metalborn technologically. And I believe it's likely that Nicrosil Compounding works with the ability to use magic is essentially by making a copy of that Investiture, not making it stronger, denser, etc. Because, again, Nicrosil works like Coperminds, and we've seen there being copies of memories - Sovereign's "coins".

This is something we knew without Navani and before RoW.  We already know that the mist is Preservations gaseous Investiture and Navani's chapters have nothing about making new Light out of nothing. All she was doing was combing and inverting them, not splitting or making completely new ones. 

Like Vin? Three hundred years ago?

I actually started writing that the Bands might already be powered by Stormlight but cut that out because the description in BoM is clearly of the Mist, and neither Marisi nor Wax experience the storm inside them and so on.

Probably not. Vasher somehow draws it in, but I thought that the Returned eat Investiture passively and naturally, like photosynthesis, for some time. But if you could get Stormlight into a Metalmind, you probably could power Allomancy with it. 

EDIT: I read what you said incorrectly, and you are right, that's exactly what I'm saying.

There is this WoB that says that 16 Mistings and 16 Ferrings of all kinds should be able to create medallions. And having a single Fullborn should make it easier because they can blank their Identity and Compound without additional medallions.

WoB:

If a Scadrian could draw it into the metalmind, they should be good to go because they already have an innate piece of Preservation in their souls. 

Using a Divine Breath to power Allomancy is probably something that a Returned would like to avoid.

I see two ways it could go. One, the Bands are designed to work only by fueling Allomancy and Feruchemy with stored Investiture. Like Allomancy in a bottle, where instead of drawing on the infinite power of Preservation in the Spiritual Realm, you draw on finite stores in a battery, but in larger portions. Two, the battery is separate from the part that allows you to use the powers, and if it ran dry, you could still use the abilities with normal strength.

 

Lol I actually didn’t know what Medallions were when I posted that last one, only just finished Bands last night. That does seem to be a way to get a lot of mistings out of only a few, you right. 
 

It seems I’ve been reading way more implications into those Navani experiments than people here do but I thought it was at least accepted that Navani and the Sibling created new Towerlight? Anyway, if they can use Rhythm to create one light then can use it to create any light simply by changing the Rhythm. So yeah, I think in Cosmere Era 2 we’re going to have Investiture generating technology and stuff like Vin being OP is going to be more commonplace. That sounds like about the level of power creep I’d expect between the two eras. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...