Chiberty

Powering Radiants off of Roshar

33 posts in this topic

19 minutes ago, lipat97 said:

also, can someone remind me when they brought up the fact that spheres couldn’t be brought outside their system? Im like pretty sure some of this info was available in book 3 (or at least Arcanum Unbounded) but Im trying to be careful in case its actually a book 4 spoiler 

I'm not sure when exactly it was revealed, but if you haven't read RoW, I strongly recommend not looking at the RoW board, which this is in, since spoilers abound here.

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17 hours ago, Chiberty said:

We don't know for sure if the sand can detect an infused perfect gem, but there is some evidence that shows it could be possible, which I put in my post. One piece of evidence is that the Fused can do some surgebinding indefinitely. And yes, as you point out, for some things, the Fused do use up Voidlight, but the fact that they are able to do just some things without using it up is key. For the shanay-im to fly about, they must be getting energy from somewhere, and if they can do this without expending Light, then the Light itself cannot be the energy source in that scenario. I am suggesting that this unknown energy source is the Spiritual Realm, facilitated via the Light. Another bit of evidence for the "Spiritual radiation" is the sand's ability to detect spren. Unless spren are constantly losing the Investiture they are composed of, it seems that some other Investiture must be emanating from them.

As you said, this being true would allow the Radiant to get more Investiture than would usually be possible, by pulling from the Spiritual Realm. However, this is not unheard of in other uses. Again, the shanay-im are able to get more energy without using Light, and in the metallic arts, iron feruchemy could be used to generate energy without using up the stored attribute (tapping weight at the top of a wheel, and storing at the bottom, thus spinning the wheel). 

Yep, that's pretty much exactly how I'm trying to suggest this would work. I don't know if the Light would count as a mini perpendicularity here, since a perpendicularity connects to the Cognitive Realm as well (which the Light may or may not do), but I do think it's at least similar to a perpendicularity's connection to the Spiritual Realm.

Actually, yes, spren seem to be constantly losing Investiture. In OB we see that the Syl and Pattern recharge in some way when the Highstorm passes through Shadesmar. They would not need to recharge if the Investiture that they're made up of stays at a fixed level. We do see that spren need Stormlight to recharge themselves after they're wounded, but Syl and Pattern had not been wounded like Notum was when they needed to recharge.

 For the Fused, a relevant question would be whether the Heavenly Ones can fly when they expend all of their Voidlight. If there's an instance of that happening, then the light isn't a factor in their ability to fly. It's been a little while, but the battle at Hearthstone in RoW part one might yield an answer on that. I feel like it's mentioned at some point that Fused fly off to refill their Voidlight, but can't quite remember. 

 

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

Actually, yes, spren seem to be constantly losing Investiture. In OB we see that the Syl and Pattern recharge in some way when the Highstorm passes through Shadesmar. They would not need to recharge if the Investiture that they're made up of stays at a fixed level. We do see that spren need Stormlight to recharge themselves after they're wounded, but Syl and Pattern had not been wounded like Notum was when they needed to recharge.

 For the Fused, a relevant question would be whether the Heavenly Ones can fly when they expend all of their Voidlight. If there's an instance of that happening, then the light isn't a factor in their ability to fly. It's been a little while, but the battle at Hearthstone in RoW part one might yield an answer on that. I feel like it's mentioned at some point that Fused fly off to refill their Voidlight, but can't quite remember. 

 

I don't see that as an indication of the spren constantly losing Investiture. For one, that only happened in the Cognitive Realm, and Phendorana was not in the Cognitive Realm when Moash detected her. Also, even in the Cognitive Realm, they don't seem to need whatever they get from the storm - it just seems to be good for them, so it's probably not actually a "recharge".

As for whether the shanay-im require Voidlight to fly... I suppose it's possible they don't, but I would find that strange, personally.

Edited by Chiberty
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On 6/1/2021 at 8:33 PM, Chiberty said:

I'm not sure when exactly it was revealed, but if you haven't read RoW, I strongly recommend not looking at the RoW board, which this is in, since spoilers abound here.

I read RoW, was asking so i dont accidentally spoil for friends who havent. Kinda hard to remember what theories I can talk to them about and which I cant

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19 hours ago, Chiberty said:

I don't see that as an indication of the spren constantly losing Investiture. For one, that only happened in the Cognitive Realm, and Phendorana was not in the Cognitive Realm when Moash detected her. Also, even in the Cognitive Realm, they don't seem to need whatever they get from the storm - it just seems to be good for them, so it's probably not actually a "recharge".

As for whether the shanay-im require Voidlight to fly... I suppose it's possible they don't, but I would find that strange, personally.

Ok, went through a few early chapters in RoW and found these:

Quote

Fully trained Windrunners had several important advantages in these battles. They had much greater potential speed than the Heavenly Ones, and they had access to Shardweapons. One might have thought these advantages insurmountable, but the Heavenly Ones were ancient, practiced, and cunning. They had trained for millennia with their powers, and they could fly forever without running out of Voidlight. They only drained it to heal, and—he’d heard—to perform the occasional rare Lashing.

That confirms that they indeed do not lose Voidlight while flying.

Quote

His enemy prepared to strike, and Kaladin reached with his off hand for one of his belt knives, then whipped it into the air. The Fused overreacted and fumbled his defense. That let Kaladin score a spear hit along the thigh. Defeating a Fused was a test in endurance. Cut them enough, and they slowed. Cut them more, and they stopped healing entirely.

His opponent’s humming grew louder, and Kaladin sensed the wounds weren’t healing any longer. Time to go for the kill. He dodged a strike—then changed Syl into a hammer, which he swung down on the enemy’s weapon, smashing it. The powerful blow threw the Heavenly One completely off balance.

Kaladin dropped the hammer and thrust his hands forward; Syl was instantly a spear, steady in his grip. His aim was true, and he speared the enemy right in the side. The Fused grunted as Kaladin whipped the spear out by reflex, then spun it around and leveled it at the enemy’s neck.

The Fused met his eyes, then licked his lips, waiting. The creature began to slowly drop from the sky, his Light expended, his powers failing.

That does seem to imply that their powers are tied to their Voidlight supply, though there's this bit a couple paragraphs later after Kaladin decides to let him live:

Quote

Kaladin lowered his spear, then gestured to the side. “Go,” he said. Some of them understood Alethi.

The Fused hummed a different tone, then raised his broken spear to Kaladin—holding it in his off hand. The Heavenly One dropped the weapon toward the rocks below. The creature bowed his head to Kaladin, then drifted away.

His Voidlight was expended at this point, but he was still in the air and was able to get away, though it does seem like his abilities were hampered. Not very conclusive, but I do think this indicates a relationship between having the Voidlight and the Fused being able to use their abilities that don't drain the Voidlight. It's possible he had a tiny amount left, but as far as I know, the Lights try to heal the body automatically until they are depleted. Though I suppose if anyone knows how to stop that and keep their light, it would be the Fused. There's another blurb from RoW about how Venli has a small amount of Voidlight that fuels her Envoyform abilities that also doesn't deplete, that might shed a bit more light(haha) on the situation, I'll see if I can find that at some point. 

As for the spren/Highstorm issue, even if it isn't Investiture, they are getting something out of it. Syl noticeably brightens, which could be an indication of increased energy, though it could also be a mood thing. That may not seem like much to you, but I have serious doubts Brandon would have written that bit in as something that just makes the spren feel better, it feels very much like they get something vital from the Highstorm. And if they do, that does present another problem for long term voyages off Roshar with a spren. I could see them being able to miss a Highstorm or two, but it's quite possible that the effects of not being near one for a few months could be detrimental to the spren's health. 

Sidenote: if the spren really isn't losing Investiture over time and charging the sand doesn't cause them to lose anything, couldn't you just use the spren to recharge sand instead of a perfect gemstone? Considering perfect gemstones aren't exactly common, that seems like a more scalable solution. 

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4 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

Ok, went through a few early chapters in RoW and found these:

That confirms that they indeed do not lose Voidlight while flying.

That does seem to imply that their powers are tied to their Voidlight supply, though there's this bit a couple paragraphs later after Kaladin decides to let him live:

His Voidlight was expended at this point, but he was still in the air and was able to get away, though it does seem like his abilities were hampered. Not very conclusive, but I do think this indicates a relationship between having the Voidlight and the Fused being able to use their abilities that don't drain the Voidlight. It's possible he had a tiny amount left, but as far as I know, the Lights try to heal the body automatically until they are depleted. Though I suppose if anyone knows how to stop that and keep their light, it would be the Fused. There's another blurb from RoW about how Venli has a small amount of Voidlight that fuels her Envoyform abilities that also doesn't deplete, that might shed a bit more light(haha) on the situation, I'll see if I can find that at some point. 

As for the spren/Highstorm issue, even if it isn't Investiture, they are getting something out of it. Syl noticeably brightens, which could be an indication of increased energy, though it could also be a mood thing. That may not seem like much to you, but I have serious doubts Brandon would have written that bit in as something that just makes the spren feel better, it feels very much like they get something vital from the Highstorm. And if they do, that does present another problem for long term voyages off Roshar with a spren. I could see them being able to miss a Highstorm or two, but it's quite possible that the effects of not being near one for a few months could be detrimental to the spren's health. 

Sidenote: if the spren really isn't losing Investiture over time and charging the sand doesn't cause them to lose anything, couldn't you just use the spren to recharge sand instead of a perfect gemstone? Considering perfect gemstones aren't exactly common, that seems like a more scalable solution. 

I don't disagree that the spren get something out of the highstorm, I just don't agree that it's vital in the Physical Realm, even if it might be vital in the Cognitive, since spren in the Physical don't seem to experience that effect from the storm.

Using spren instead of a perfect gemstone may indeed be a better way to do this process. It's possible though that the Investiture released by spren is different than that released from Stormlight, Intent-wise, which might make it work a different way.

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Posted (edited)

So what you are describing is that maybe kinetic investiture exists as a conduit for which to pull investiture from the spiritual realm and is not the actual investiture being used necessarily. you are also indirectly then asserting that light is a form of kinetic investiture and that radiants operate similarly to mistborn by using the light to connect to the spiritual realm not consuming the light for power. 

I feel like if this is correct it is conceptually kinda big for our understanding of the exact mechanics of magic systems especially investiture and end positive magic systems.

however I am skeptical of the sand idea I’m not sure it would be enough assuming it would work and honestly compared to the idea of light as a kinetic form of investiture that only acts as a conduit it seems less important 

 

Edited by Valigus
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My main issue with this is, that the metal acts like a key, access Investiture from the SR und form it. It is not invested or anything.
The same happens on Sel through different means. I know, the Dor is in the CR and not in the SR, but the concept stays the same.

On Nalthis Investiture is endowed to everyone on birth or rebirth, aka the Returned, you don't need a key to access the SR, because the Investiture is already there with you.
And SL acts the same, the key to accessing SL is the Highstorm. To me it functions like a huge well pumping Investiture from the SR to the PR. As SL is not "sticky" like Breath, or VL on the Fused, is evaporates quickly, if not adequately stored, and sickers back to the SR.
It works like pumping water in a bucket full of holes. If the pump is storng enough, you can have plenty of water for a short term, but as the time goes on, the bucket will be empty, unless you catch some water.

The flora and fauna on Roshar is dependant on this cycle, which seems similar to the water cycle on earth and this analogy works pretty well.

 

Back when Honor was still alive, the  Heralds could tap SL directly with no need of Spheres to store it in them. Maybe the Fused have a similar link to Odium, but only to some degree. We know, that the Fused are a pretty perfect container for VL, like Humans for Breath. Maybe this increases their efficiency on using it to a degree, where it seems like they don't use any of it.
My pet theorie is, that there is a certain part in each surge, that they can pull the Investiture for directly from Odium. Like Odium is powering their flight dircetly, but for healing and lashing, they need an extra source.

All in all, I am convinced that indeed the stored SL is used by Radiants and no external radiation created by Stormlight beeing there.
But if you are right about the Radiantion-thing, then a spren should be enough to fill in the part of gems.
But this still leaves us to the issue of getting the Investiture back from the Sand, doesn't it? IMHO, this will be the biggest step to make.

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