Phlipz1

Skybreaker Division

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so we know that different surges can be used different ways by different orders. for example, adhesion is used differently by bondsmiths and windrunners (with some shared abilities)

the question is, as said in the title, does skybreaker division work any different to dustbringer division? we've never seen ANY skybreaker use division (the few we know being able to use it are Nales helpers, Nale himself and Szeth) and that leaves me wondering if the fact that they are skybreakers (and follow such a strict code) stops them from using the main battle surge (from what we know) or if they just dont particularly want to.

lemme know what you think! i couldnt find any WoB on this or anything on the coppermind so as always i turn to you lot!

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Brandon is probably saving Division for the book five or later would be my guess as to why we haven't seen it yet.

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Posted (edited)

Here's a topic going broadly over how much we know about the Surges that we haven't seen much of yet, for anyone wondering about those Surges:

Brandon's said that there might be differences between how some Orders use their shared Surge but it's not the case for most. There's been speculation before that Abrasion might work differently between Dustbringers and Edgedancers, letting the former increase friction and the latter decrease friction, or allow Dustbringers to do both as Chana was described as being very fast in the Fleet story, possibly a function of Abrasion to slide.

Edited by Honorless
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I suspect that Skybreaker Division will allow hypersonic flight, once someone figures it out. Windrunners have Adhesion, which affects pressure and vacuum. They shape the air, so they're able to do things like push back the storm, or create an air current that keeps the squad together.

Skybreakers don't have that. If they fling themselves hard enough into the air, it will push them and slow them. The solution is Division. They could separate the molecules of air in front of themselves and fly without resistance. It's not like they need to breathe while they've got light anyway. 

And then we'd know what Sky Breaking refers to.

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I never considered this! That's an amazing idea! 

I could see that working cause of course we know division separates molecules, and the minute amount of air resistance would be gone. 

Only thing I could see wrong with this is that we have no reports of nale blitzing around the battlefield for the fused, as we know he has been there at least once. I'd imagine hypersonic flight would be quite useful

Also, if this was the case, then what really would be the point of multiple lashings? If the windrunners can shape the vacuum in front of them to negate air resistance why bother allowing them to lash once twice or 3 times?

 

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Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, earthexile said:

I suspect that Skybreaker Division will allow hypersonic flight, once someone figures it out. Windrunners have Adhesion, which affects pressure and vacuum. They shape the air, so they're able to do things like push back the storm, or create an air current that keeps the squad together.

Skybreakers don't have that. If they fling themselves hard enough into the air, it will push them and slow them. The solution is Division. They could separate the molecules of air in front of themselves and fly without resistance. It's not like they need to breathe while they've got light anyway. 

And then we'd know what Sky Breaking refers to.

Air being diatomic in general splittig its molecules apart roughly doubles air resistance. And you are flying through a cloud of oxygen and nitrogen radicals which happen to be quite poisonous. And you would leave a brown cloud of pollution behind yourself.

Edited by Oltux72
typo
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Posted (edited)

I've been thinking, what if Skybreaker and Dustbringer Division both allow for propulsion?

That way, Skybreakers would be like the fighter jets of the Knights Radiant. With Adhesion and Gravitation, Windrunners have flexibility and agility. So it could be that the Skybreakers fulfill another niche, especially once they get plate. This niche of less agile, less flexible, but more destructive and faster-over-distance combatants. Where they would potentially be able to use Division and the more oxygen-rich Rosharan air to generate propulsion and achieve supersonic flight.

That way, a group of Skybreakers flying in formation passing a village wouldn't be unlike a flight of low-altitude fighter jets, giving you this idea of where their moniker of Skybreakers might come from.

This also helps with the Dustbringers. Where Edgedancers can slick themselves but have to gracefully skate, a Dustbringer could slick themselves with Abrasion, and then be able to use Division-based propulsion to travel quickly over land, giving them this niche of fast, mobile, land corps that can cover ground and deliver destruction where needed. A kind of land cavalry that, 1) brings Division-based destruction, breaking things, and 2) leaves behind a trail of dust and fire, as they use Division on the ground for propulsion, leaving a wake of dust behind them. The Dustbringers.

Edited by asmodeus
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Posted (edited)

Not sure where I saw it but a good theory is that Division for Dustbringers is Fire, and for Skybreakers it's lightening. That makes sense to me given that they can fly so it would be a good power set.

Edited by MistMage
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Posted (edited)

45 minutes ago, MistMage said:

Not sure where I saw it but a good theory is that Division for Dustbringers is Fire, and for Skybreakers it's lightening. That makes sense to me given that they can fly so it would be a good power set.

Sorry, but this image dominated my mind as soon as I read this.
CE61F587-1FE1-4050-AB7F-86A2A9683E54.thumb.jpeg.91c16960f5e4c42467494456c12a073f.jpeg
 

Then not long after, this one. Firebending for Dustbringers and lightning for Skybreakers.

EFEAEA9D-B0C0-4B50-B48D-AA1B5574152F.thumb.jpeg.afdcf32cee68a4c2e47760cec9eb771e.jpeg

By the way, I LOVE Uncle Iroh. He’s the best.

Edited by Xaladin
No double post
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5 hours ago, MistMage said:

Not sure where I saw it but a good theory is that Division for Dustbringers is Fire, and for Skybreakers it's lightening. That makes sense to me given that they can fly so it would be a good power set.

This will give them possibility to channel Lightning certain way, heat air, make it much less dense and travel in channel of near-vacuum. Imagine this: Lightning srikes in place, everyone get blinded for the moment, and now squad of Skybreakers is standing there.

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9 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

This will give them possibility to channel Lightning certain way, heat air, make it much less dense and travel in channel of near-vacuum. Imagine this: Lightning srikes in place, everyone get blinded for the moment, and now squad of Skybreakers is standing there.

Yeah that's very possible, I'm sure division is hard for them to use/control and maybe that's why we haven't seen them use it in battle.

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On 6/11/2021 at 2:31 AM, asmodeus said:

I've been thinking, what if Skybreaker and Dustbringer Division both allow for propulsion?

That way, Skybreakers would be like the fighter jets of the Knights Radiant. With Adhesion and Gravitation, Windrunners have flexibility and agility. So it could be that the Skybreakers fulfill another niche, especially once they get plate. This niche of less agile, less flexible, but more destructive and faster-over-distance combatants. Where they would potentially be able to use Division and the more oxygen-rich Rosharan air to generate propulsion and achieve supersonic flight.

That way, a group of Skybreakers flying in formation passing a village wouldn't be unlike a flight of low-altitude fighter jets, giving you this idea of where their moniker of Skybreakers might come from.

This also helps with the Dustbringers. Where Edgedancers can slick themselves but have to gracefully skate, a Dustbringer could slick themselves with Abrasion, and then be able to use Division-based propulsion to travel quickly over land, giving them this niche of fast, mobile, land corps that can cover ground and deliver destruction where needed. A kind of land cavalry that, 1) brings Division-based destruction, breaking things, and 2) leaves behind a trail of dust and fire, as they use Division on the ground for propulsion, leaving a wake of dust behind them. The Dustbringers.

An image springs to mind, a pair of travelers moving across Roshar, coming upon a series of burnt gashes in the stone, not perfectly straight, but moving near-parallel to each other from the West to the East.

The Younger asks, "What is this?"

"It is the mark of the Dustbringers. They move to the warfront," says the Elder.

"What will they do there?"

The elder stares at the trails, wrinkles furrowing in thought. His gaze drifts to the horizon, to the distant cities, kingdoms, and wars beyond it. "They will release Alethela from its burden. They'll end the war for them."

Is a good image. I like this concept of Dustbringers.

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On 27.5.2021 at 10:05 PM, Phlipz1 said:

the question is, as said in the title, does skybreaker division work any different to dustbringer division? we've never seen ANY skybreaker use division (the few we know being able to use it are Nales helpers, Nale himself and Szeth) and that leaves me wondering if the fact that they are skybreakers (and follow such a strict code) stops them from using the main battle surge (from what we know) or if they just dont particularly want to.

They are used as an air force. Division works by touch only. You see the issue? And Divison cannot kill you any deader than a Shardblade. You have to be at the third oath at least to use Division. When and where would you use it?

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division's use is as the main battle surge (from what we've seen and been told. id assume with skybreakers it would be for fighting non radiants or non fused, simply flying across the battlefield and skimming a hand across everyone, turning either them, their weapons, or the armour to dust/fire. again though thats not what i asked here. im wondering if its use is different like bondsmith and windrunner adhesion, or if they have a stronger version or alike. does that make sense?

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3 hours ago, Phlipz1 said:

division's use is as the main battle surge (from what we've seen and been told. id assume with skybreakers it would be for fighting non radiants or non fused, simply flying across the battlefield and skimming a hand across everyone, turning either them, their weapons, or the armour to dust/fire. again though thats not what i asked here. im wondering if its use is different like bondsmith and windrunner adhesion, or if they have a stronger version or alike. does that make sense?

OK. first things first. At least Adhesion and other Surges can combine. I assume that Skybreakers lack the Reverse Lashing. The only other weird thing we have seen is Dalinar healing temples. This may be a combination of Tension, which may also, like Cohesion, allow the tapping of an object's memory, and Adhesion.

Secondly Bondsmith Adhesion can do everything Windrunner Adhesion can also do. Dalinar glued people and objects together.

Thirdly we have never seen Surges operate differently among orders other than Bondsmiths.
The lashings except for Reverse Lashings are the same among Windrunners and Skybreakers.
Soulcasting is the same for Elsecallers and Lightweavers.
Progression is Progression. Truthwatcher Lightweaving is also Lightweaving (save for Renarin). In a vision we saw a Dustbringer use Abrasion. No difference to Edgedancers,

Bondsmiths bond vastly more powerful Spren, hence they can do more. Other than that I'd say a Surge is a Surge.

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This has made me thinking... What if the Skybreaker's have been corrupted or w/e and are using Odium's division?

 

We have no proof or anything, but it is odd we haven't seen anything.

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On 6/19/2021 at 10:44 AM, Xaladin said:

Sorry, but this image dominated my mind as soon as I read this.
CE61F587-1FE1-4050-AB7F-86A2A9683E54.thumb.jpeg.91c16960f5e4c42467494456c12a073f.jpeg
 

Skybreaker: 'I will not join Odium.'

Nale's Skybreakers: 'It's treason then.'

 

I still think that Gravitation and Division will lead to weaponised sandstorms. Divide the rock into sand then use Gravitation to direct it.

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Posted (edited)

Even better, infuse an object with Division (somehow), then Lash it at the enemy to explode on impact.

They're just dropping rocks from the sky, except the rocks are bombs.

Edited by The Technovore
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Posted (edited)

Brandon has kinda literally already pulled force lightning into the Cosmere right under our noses.

Stormform comes from the power of "God's own Hatred," and grants lightning powers that are really hard to control, and yet, give a euphoric sensation of power.

Edited by asmodeus
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5 minutes ago, asmodeus said:

Brandon has kinda literally already pulled force lightning into the Cosmere right under our noses.

Stormform comes from the power of "God's own Hatred," and grants lightning powers that are really hard to control, and yet, give a euphoric sensation of power.

Sadly it’s not “Unlimited Power”

They only get short busts at a time

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21 hours ago, asmodeus said:

Brandon has kinda literally already pulled force lightning into the Cosmere right under our noses.

Stormform comes from the power of "God's own Hatred," and grants lightning powers that are really hard to control, and yet, give a euphoric sensation of power.

If they originally come from Odium, why do they have red eyes?

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2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

If they originally come from Odium, why do they have red eyes?

I will remind you (all of you who everywhere see Corrupted Investiture and tell that cannot be Odium originally) taht

A. Odium choses Red as his Color.

B. Soulstamp influencing the Soul (or more like Mind) of person is generating red smoke - but Soulstamp IS NOT Corrupted Investiture. But is in fact corrupting soul (Mind?) in some way. So Red Eyes can mean permanently corrupted Soul/Mind/Sprak of life (what in fact is true in case of Fused!), not nesecerly mean Corrupted Investiture itself.

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6 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

I will remind you (all of you who everywhere see Corrupted Investiture and tell that cannot be Odium originally) taht

Everybody's favorite Voidbinder does not have red eyes: Renarin
There you have Odium's own system: Voidbinding

6 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

A. Odium choses Red as his Color.

Quite a lot of gold around him

6 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

B. Soulstamp influencing the Soul (or more like Mind) of person is generating red smoke - but Soulstamp IS NOT Corrupted Investiture. But is in fact corrupting soul (Mind?) in some way. So Red Eyes can mean permanently corrupted Soul/Mind/Sprak of life (what in fact is true in case of Fused!), not nesecerly mean Corrupted Investiture itself.

Why would that be true of the Fused?

And if the Regals are of Odium, what was the original Singer system, which they must have had, otherwise it could not have been forbidden?

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14 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Everybody's favorite Voidbinder does not have red eyes: Renarin
There you have Odium's own system: Voidbinding

But he is the one who we know for sure has corrupted part of magic - Focus of Investiture. His spren is not from Odium, is from Cultivation and Corrupted by Odium. And is partialy Red. So Renarin uses Corrupted Investiture.

 

17 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Why would that be true of the Fused?

Isnt this obvious? They are re-writing minds of Singers, taking their bodies. Im almost sure Fused dont have Red Eyes in their original Bodies, like Heralds dont have.

 

19 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

And if the Regals are of Odium, what was the original Singer system, which they must have had, otherwise it could not have been forbidden?

Standard Forms are not exactly Magic System. Forms of Power are granting, nomen-omen, power. Standard Forms functions by amplifying Singer's physical abilities, Forms of Power are granting something extra - usage of Investiture - but are also taking more - changes mind more than standard form.

I thik we saw original magic system - Manipulation of Surges with Rythms and free spren. This is original - convincing Spren to manifest power with proper Song. We saw this in use with Lifespren - this was clearly Surge of Progression, we saw also memory of Cohesion Surge (Stoneshaping)

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3 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

But he is the one who we know for sure has corrupted part of magic - Focus of Investiture. His spren is not from Odium, is from Cultivation and Corrupted by Odium. And is partialy Red. So Renarin uses Corrupted Investiture.

Well, no mixing the magics does not do it. Otherwise all Radiants, mixing Honor and Cultivation, would be affected.

3 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

 

Isnt this obvious? They are re-writing minds of Singers, taking their bodies. Im almost sure Fused dont have Red Eyes in their original Bodies, like Heralds dont have.

No, Thunderclasts also have red eyes. So alternative explanation: They have red eyes because Odium granted them Surges, which are not his system.

3 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

 

Standard Forms are not exactly Magic System. Forms of Power are granting, nomen-omen, power. Standard Forms functions by amplifying Singer's physical abilities, Forms of Power are granting something extra - usage of Investiture - but are also taking more - changes mind more than standard form.

I thik we saw original magic system - Manipulation of Surges with Rythms and free spren. This is original - convincing Spren to manifest power with proper Song. We saw this in use with Lifespren - this was clearly Surge of Progression, we saw also memory of Cohesion Surge (Stoneshaping)

But that was allowed. They built their cities that way. Yet the Eila Stele forbade bonds with Spren. Hence Forms of Power are older.

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