Is moash Paul?

[bmcclure7]

We have seen that Sanderson has been inspired by biblical themes before in mistborn with moash becoming blind do you think he is pulling from the story of paul? 

After he was healed paul became the apostle of the gentiles, will Moash become the Herald of the singers?

[Honorless]

Brandon could've been inspired by it. It's very "no fall so deep that grace cannot descend to it". I don't think I'd like that approach to Moash's story though, especially with Words of Radiance's approach to systemic racism with Dalinar-not-like-other-Lighteyes and Oathbringer's Kaladin-meets-poorer-Lighteyes, and Kaladin not technically being a Darkeyes anymore. If the Darkeyes Lighteyes race, caste and slavery gets any more minimalized and completely side-stepped and unaddressed, it'd look incredibly bad.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Honorless

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

Brandon could've been inspired by it. It's very "no fall so deep that grace cannot descend to it". I don't think I'd like that approach to Moash's story though, especially with Words of Radiance's approach to systemic racism with Dalinar-not-like-other-Lighteyes and Oathbringer's Kaladin-meets-poorer-Lighteyes, and Kaladin not technically being a Darkeyes anymore. If the Darkeyes Lighteyes race, caste and slavery gets any more minimalized and completely side-stepped and unaddressed, it'd look incredibly bad.

Brandon doesn't have the best track record of long term consequences though.

[Toaster Retribution]

It is an interesting thought, but I doubt it. I can't really see many other similarities between Paul and Moash than the blindness. And furthermore, I doubt book 5 will have space for a "Moash-being-apostle"-arc. I think he is too far gone now to be more than a puppet for Odium, or, maybe in the long run, a more self-driven villain. 

[Isilel]

On 27 May 2021 at 6:28 PM, Honorless said:

. If the Darkeyes Lighteyes race, caste and slavery gets any more minimalized and completely side-stepped and unaddressed, it'd look incredibly bad.

But Moash isn't some champion of the Darkeyes rights - in fact, he is perfectly OK with them being enslaved - as long as it isn't by the Lighteyes.  He casually murders some in RoW and if the Fused decide to massacre the "useless mouths" among them I wouldn't expect him to object either.

[Honorless]

13 minutes ago, Isilel said:

But Moash isn't some champion of the Darkeyes rights - in fact, he is perfectly OK with them being enslaved - as long as it isn't by the Lighteyes.  He casually murders some in RoW and if the Fused decide to massacre the "useless mouths" among them I wouldn't expect him to object either.

That's exactly the point. The whole issue of Vorin casteism is being side-stepped in the story by making it irrelevant. Moash was the only one left. And he's evil.

[LuckyJim]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

That's exactly the point. The whole issue of Vorin casteism is being side-stepped in the story by making it irrelevant. Moash was the only one left. And he's evil.

This is like, 50% of the reason that I’m for a potential redemption arc.

Edited June 4, 2021 by LuckyJim

[bmcclure7]

On 6/4/2021 at 0:37 PM, Honorless said:

That's exactly the point. The whole issue of Vorin casteism is being side-stepped in the story by making it irrelevant. Moash was the only one left. And he's evil.

I not sure it is worth spending time on the cast system dosnt exist in the occupied countries and with so many dark eyed radiance it won't last long anywhere else either.

[Honorless]

57 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

I not sure it is worth spending time on the cast system dosnt exist in the occupied countries and with so many dark eyed radiance it won't last long anywhere else either.

After the caste system caused so much plot and character development?

Again, this is exactly what I'm talking about. The books didn't tackle the problem at all, it just went "not every high caste person is bad", "hey, you no longer belong to the lower caste" and "hey, we should forget about all this and unite (under the high caste) to fight the big bad", none of which address the issue at all. You're right that Darkeyes Radiants and how they destabilize the Vorin caste system could be an interesting thing but it is also never brought up.

[LuckyJim]

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

I not sure it is worth spending time on the cast system dosnt exist in the occupied countries and with so many dark eyed radiance it won't last long anywhere else either.

I mean, at that point why make it such a major part of the story to begin with? If it's just going to get dropped 2-3 books in without ever being seriously addressed aside from "oppressed people shouldn't generalize their oppressors" then what's even the point of having an system of eye color superiority at all?

Sanderson built the world and characters from scratch, he had complete freedom in developing Kaladin's formative years and what shaped him into the man he became. He never had to make eye based racism such a huge problem within the Vorin nations. In fact, Way of Kings Prime didn't even have a lighteyes/darkeyes distinction.

[bmcclure7]

On 6/7/2021 at 4:34 PM, Honorless said:

After the caste system caused so much plot and character development?

Again, this is exactly what I'm talking about. The books didn't tackle the problem at all, it just went "not every high caste person is bad", "hey, you no longer belong to the lower caste" and "hey, we should forget about all this and unite (under the high caste) to fight the big bad", none of which address the issue at all. You're right that Darkeyes Radiants and how they destabilize the Vorin caste system could be an interesting thing but it is also never brought up.

 The thing is I'm not sure the caste system even exist anymore you have dark eyes now in key prominent positions over light eyes, Not to mention that for the other side all humans are pretty much the same, so I'm not sure that there's anything to even address it just seems  Something that would just add even more word count. 

[bmcclure7]

On 6/7/2021 at 8:06 PM, LuckyJim said:

I mean, at that point why make it such a major part of the story to begin with? If it's just going to get dropped 2-3 books in without ever being seriously addressed aside from "oppressed people shouldn't generalize their oppressors" then what's even the point of having an system of eye color superiority at all?

Sanderson built the world and characters from scratch, he had complete freedom in developing Kaladin's formative years and what shaped him into the man he became. He never had to make eye based racism such a huge problem within the Vorin nations. In fact, Way of Kings Prime didn't even have a lighteyes/darkeyes distinction.

 What exactly do you want to have happened to address it?

[Honorless]

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 The thing is I'm not sure the caste system even exist anymore you have dark eyes now in key prominent positions over light eyes, Not to mention that for the other side all humans are pretty much the same, so I'm not sure that there's anything to even address it just seems  Something that would just add even more word count. 

*Some Darkeyes in key positions. This is like saying racism doesn't exist because Shaq exists

Check out the chapter where Laral and Kaladin's parents get their rooms in RoW. Lirin and Hesina get it because of Kaladin and because he's a doctor & they'll use it as a clinic. Laral, meanwhile, gets the same deal simply because she's a Lighteyes. So the distinction explicitly still exists in RoW.

[GroundPetrel]

With regards to the caste system, I get the strangest feeling that universally beloved war hero Kaladin Stormblessed and his endlessly supportive best bro for life Adolin "I never met a nobody in trouble I didn't immediately want to help at any cost" Kholin will not be supportive of reestablishing it when all this apocalypse business is over.  In fact, I am certain that they will use all the political power they can get to pressure Jasnah and maybe Dalinar into legally destroying the caste system.  

[jamesbondsmith]

I feel like the Dark/Lighteyes system definitely still exists, just that Radiants have managed to skip the queue and so many characters are either Radiant or Lighteyed that we don't see much of the Darkeyes anymore. 

[Honorless]

8 hours ago, GroundPetrel said:

With regards to the caste system, I get the strangest feeling that universally beloved war hero Kaladin Stormblessed and his endlessly supportive best bro for life Adolin "I never met a nobody in trouble I didn't immediately want to help at any cost" Kholin will not be supportive of reestablishing it when all this apocalypse business is over.  In fact, I am certain that they will use all the political power they can get to pressure Jasnah and maybe Dalinar into legally destroying the caste system.  

I don't think Jasnah would need to be pressured

[Frustration]

21 hours ago, Honorless said:

*Some Darkeyes in key positions. This is like saying racism doesn't exist because Shaq exists

Sports are hardly the same.

and it's not saying that it doesn't exsit just that it's mostly been abandoned.

21 hours ago, Honorless said:

Check out the chapter where Laral and Kaladin's parents get their rooms in RoW. Lirin and Hesina get it because of Kaladin and because he's a doctor & they'll use it as a clinic. Laral, meanwhile, gets the same deal simply because she's a Lighteyes. So the distinction explicitly still exists in RoW.

No, she got it because she inherited the ruling position of Hearthstone.

Which was because she was married to the man who was assigned it, because he was exiled from a more prestigeous poition because of bad decisions, who had that position becuase his parents where important and back and back through the generations was in charge because they where related to Radiants.

[Honorless]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Sports are hardly the same.

and it's not saying that it doesn't exsit just that it's mostly been abandoned.

The point was a few people of the lower caste attaining higher positions does not eradicate the problem of casteism

People are already annoyed with having to do the jobs that the Parshmen did for them.

It's only mostly abandoned in Urithiru, and even there mostly in the Kholinar sections

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

No, she got it because she inherited the ruling position of Hearthstone.

Which was because she was married to the man who was assigned it, because he was exiled from a more prestigeous poition because of bad decisions, who had that position becuase his parents where important

Which are all things she has because she's a Lighteyes

Quote

and back and back through the generations was in charge because they where related to Radiants.

or killed and took the Shards off a Radiant during the Recreance. Yes, we know, what's your point?

[a Faceless Immortal]

Man this got off topic very fast  

While I definitely have a disliking for Moash, I actually really enjoyed his interactions with the Parshendi and singers and so I think it would be a satisfying plot line if he, while being completely shunned by the rest of humanity for his pretty atrocious acts, finds sympathy in the community of the singers who, like himself, have been manipulated and mistreated by Odium, eventually coming to a leadership position among them and encouraging them towards unification. The only problem I see with this is he's pretty much being pushed in the direction of being incredibly selfish (I mean, he doesn't even feel remorse for killing Teft) and so it would be a very miraculous change in direction to go from where he is to being someone who strives for unity. I think this could possibly be achieved by making Odium get on his bad side somehow (he stops taking his pain etc) and because 'enemy of my enemy' joins with the humans to defeat Odium, I'm just not sure how quickly this turnaround could happen without making it feel contrived.

Regarding the casteism (which totally deserves it's own topic), I think this is one of the cases in which Brandon, because of the massive amounts of world building he has done, has a much bigger picture of the effects it's currently having on society in his head than is translating into the stories. Because these books are stories rather than political metaphors a lot of the philosophic quandaries about race (eye color in this case), culture and gender have basically been sidestepped in favor of  a more fluid and succinct plot line. I would, however, love a short story/novella about what's going on, either with Lirin and Hesina during their stay at the tower and how their lifestyles contrast with Laral's and the other lighteyes or maybe the members of Bridge Four struggling with being part-time lighteyes?

[Frustration]

10 hours ago, Honorless said:

Which are all things she has because she's a Lighteyes

or killed and took the Shards off a Radiant during the Recreance. Yes, we know, what's your point?

I'm saying that being lighteyes is three or four steps removed from the actual problem, that being inherited political power.

[Honorless]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I'm saying that being lighteyes is three or four steps removed from the actual problem, that being inherited political power.

Obviously people themselves aren't the problem, the power structure that divides them is. Misuse of power wouldn't be an issue if the distribution of power wasn't so disproportionate.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Honorless

[RedBlue]

6 hours ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

The only problem I see with this is he's pretty much being pushed in the direction of being incredibly selfish (I mean, he doesn't even feel remorse for killing Teft) and so it would be a very miraculous change in direction to go from where he is to being someone who strives for unity.

I’m not so sure about this - I think Moash does feel remorse over killing Teft, but he’s deep in denial and the ability to outsource his negative emotions means that he has no incentive to be better or to change. 

I think the fact that Moash does have that pain, even if he’s refusing to feel it or own it right now, is the reason that a redemption arc is possible for him.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 6/11/2021 at 10:10 AM, RedBlue said:

I’m not so sure about this - I think Moash does feel remorse over killing Teft, but he’s deep in denial and the ability to outsource his negative emotions means that he has no incentive to be better or to change. 

I think the fact that Moash does have that pain, even if he’s refusing to feel it or own it right now, is the reason that a redemption arc is possible for him.

Agreed. Moash's thoughts that chapter were basically "I'm not sorry, I just hurt immensely at realizing what I've done and hate myself for it and feel incredibly guilty and ashamed and horrified by my actions". He's refusing to accept that at the moment and fled back to Odium, but it's very much there if he chooses to own up to it in the future.

[Elegy]

I think this is a good observation, but I am very skeptical for a lot of reasons. One of them being that Moash has fallen so deep in Rhythm of War, it's literally impossible to redeem him over a few days (which will apparently be book five's story's duration). Another one being his aforementioned refusal to deal with it. He explicitly states that he is not sorry for killing Teft, he just isn't, even outside Odium's influence. That's not a foundation for a redemption arc, in any way.

But other reasons (that I haven't seen cited as often) why I think a thorough, complete redemption arc is basically impossible to pull off tastefully are this:

1) Elhokar was in the middle of a sort of a redemption arc himself, from egoistic and incompetent king to someone who actually tried to do better. And then the possiblity of him completing that arc was destroyed as Moash murdered him. If Moash got the very thing that he violently took from Elhokar, that would feel very cynical, very inappropriate, and ill-advised, I guess.

2) This regards Moash's other murder of a main character, and it's a quote from Chapter 104, Teft's very last words:

• "You can kill me, but you can't have what I have. You can never have it. Because I die knowing I'm loved." (Italics are transcribed from the book)

And it would be strange if Moash got that very thing, when Teft's big moment, his big last stand to Moash consisted of telling him that he wouldn't have it.

I think it's hard to pull off a Moash redemption arc without making these two (very emotional) moments feel awkward and wrong. It might be possible in some way, but hell, I believe that's more work than a single pre-time skip Stormlight book can offer a non-major character.