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Odium’s Cosmere war


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So I haven’t done a reread of RoW yet and I need some help figuring out exactly what we found out about Odium’s plans for the Cosmere war he mentions. Am I remembering correctly that Odium views Roshar as a training ground for the troops he will use in his war in the Cosmere?

The Alethi mythology of the afterlife holds that those who are worthy are chosen to fight alongside the Heralds to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls, right? Does that mean that the battle to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls is actually this Cosmere war? And does this mythology therefore stem from Odium’s influence? Are those who are worthy being selected by Odium to remain as soldiers in this war? Or is this a future plan of Odium’s (not yet in motion)? 

If this is what is happening, and is already in motion, does this mean that Odium has been stopping those he considers worthy from passing into the beyond when they die? If so, where are all these souls? Would this have anything to do with the screams people like Szeth and Dalinar hear? 
 

If anyone remembers more clearly, I’d love to know what info there is about the Cosmere war Odium speaks of in RoW, and if this is connected in the book to the mythology of the Tranquiline Halls. 

Edited by Kahlani
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Yeah, Odium seems to have influenced the Alethi / Vorin religion for his own purposes. I don't know that he is actually capturing souls of the dead before they passed on. He did that with the Fused, but he hasn't made any new Fused since the first desolation (per Raboniel). 

I interpreted what he said to mean he was making a planet full of societies that are used to constant war so they'd be more battle-hardened. The whole "kill every Shard via direct combat" thing has not worked out. He got 4 of them, but he was wounded and then trapped. Maybe he figured out a proxy war is a better way to do it. 

Quote

To fight directly might coax out forces that could hurt him, as he has been hurt before. Those scars do not heal - Stormfather on Odium in OB Ch. 16

I don't know how a mortal army or, if he makes more Fused, a semi-immortal army of cognitive shadows will be able to kill Shard vessels. Then again Taravangian killed one. 

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Hah, great catch with Odium likely being behind the Tranquiline Halls mythos, I guess I should've re-read TWoK after RoW after all.  I think that's all we know about it, though - except the juicy tidbit that El is aware of the Cosmere war.  "Roshar will be united in its service of the greater war. / And I will march proudly at the head of a human legion."

WHAT DID RAYSE TELL THEM?!

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Odium chuckled softly, rotating his scepter beneath his hand so the butt ground against the golden stone at their feet. “Do you know why I make men fight, Dalinar? Why I created the Thrill? Why I encourage the wars?”

“To destroy us.”

“Why would I want to destroy you? I am your god, Dalinar.” Odium shook his head, staring into the infinite golden distance. “I need soldiers. For the true battle that is coming, not for one people or one miserable windswept continent. A battle of the gods. A battle for everything.

“Roshar is a training ground. The time will come that I unleash you upon the others who are not nearly as well trained. Not nearly as hardened as I have made you.”

ROW, chapter 112

This is the clearest description of the Cosmere war that I could find. So yes, Odium has been using Roshar to raise an army, with which he plans to take over the rest of the Cosmere - and given Taravangian’s ideas about ‘saving’ everyone, I think it’s safe to assume that the fundamental plan is unchanged, even if strategy might be different under the new Odium.

As far as I can remember, there aren’t any references to Odium influencing Vorin religion directly, or messing with people’s ability to go into the Beyond on Roshar. That doesn’t mean he’s not doing it, though.

On 25/05/2021 at 11:45 AM, Kahlani said:

If this is what is happening, and is already in motion, does this mean that Odium has been stopping those he considers worthy from passing into the beyond when they die? If so, where are all these souls? Would this have anything to do with the screams people like Szeth and Dalinar hear?

In addition to the screams Szeth and Dalinar hear, we’ve had scenes with Nohadon and Tien, and heard Evi and Teft speak briefly. These characters should (by our understanding of how death works in the Cosmere) be in the Beyond and therefore out of reach.

If Odium is responsible for the death weirdness, I’m inclined to think he’s doing it across the board, not picking and choosing individuals. He speaks scathingly about Nohadon, and I can’t imagine he would consider Evi or Tien useful to his purposes. 

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I'm not entirely sure about the quasi-zombie cognitive-shadow army...

Personally, I took this way more literally; Odium wants to have the living military might of a combined Roshar (Humans and Singers) to kick start his conquests throughout the Cosmere, probably because the magic of the Knights Radiant and Spren make people into absolute tanks who could probably plow through all the other forms of investiture trying to resist them. I think the Thrill is pretty good evidence to back this up; surely Odium made/corrupted/enlightened Nergauol for far greater a reason than to just make people fight each other - to me it would make far more sense that this is a method of mind-control to coax the possibly less willing people on Roshar to do the bidding of Odium, that being carry out his total domination of the Cosmere.

Furthermore, I believe that the mythology of the Tranquiline Halls is probably a fabrication influenced by Odium to open the people up to the idea of being used in some sort of galactic war -- I mean, think about it; you'd be more likely to agree with going to war if you had spent your entire life believing that someday it would be humankind's destiny to wage a spiritual war for some far off lands than if you didn't.

I believe this kind of subterfuge, under-the-radar preparations of the people of Roshar is 100% in line with Odium's modus operandi of emotional manipulations.

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29 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

Odium chuckled softly, rotating his scepter beneath his hand so the butt ground against the golden stone at their feet. “Do you know why I make men fight, Dalinar? Why I created the Thrill? Why I encourage the wars?”

“To destroy us.”

“Why would I want to destroy you? I am your god, Dalinar.” Odium shook his head, staring into the infinite golden distance. “I need soldiers. For the true battle that is coming, not for one people or one miserable windswept continent. A battle of the gods. A battle for everything.

“Roshar is a training ground. The time will come that I unleash you upon the others who are not nearly as well trained. Not nearly as hardened as I have made you.”

YES. This is what I was trying to remember! Thank you! 
 

It’s that last bit especially that made me think that Odium has been keeping souls from passing into the beyond to use in his army. Perhaps those who show the most passion? Maybe if this is happening, he doesn’t have much control over it and that’s why people like Evi are part of those screams - part of that army in training if we go with this theory - because they showed immense passion before their death (in Evi’s case, to risk her own life to prevent war and killing). 

A bit of a crack theory I do admit, but I just feel like there is a link between this war Odium is talking about and the belief that the most “passionate” soldiers will continue to fight in the Tranquiline Halls after death.

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8 minutes ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

I'm not entirely sure about the quasi-zombie cognitive-shadow army...

Personally, I took this way more literally; Odium wants to have the living military might of a combined Roshar (Humans and Singers) to kick start his conquests throughout the Cosmere, probably because the magic of the Knights Radiant and Spren make people into absolute tanks who could probably plow through all the other forms of investiture trying to resist them. I think the Thrill is pretty good evidence to back this up; surely Odium made/corrupted/enlightened Nergauol for far greater a reason than to just make people fight each other - to me it would make far more sense that this is a method of mind-control to coax the possibly less willing people on Roshar to do the bidding of Odium, that being carry out his total domination of the Cosmere.

Furthermore, I believe that the mythology of the Tranquiline Halls is probably a fabrication influenced by Odium to open the people up to the idea of being used in some sort of galactic war -- I mean, think about it; you'd be more likely to agree with going to war if you had spent your entire life believing that someday it would be humankind's destiny to wage a spiritual war for some far off lands than if you didn't.

I believe this kind of subterfuge, under-the-radar preparations of the people of Roshar is 100% in line with Odium's modus operandi of emotional manipulations.

This is very rational and could definitely be what’s actually going on! I guess I do wonder though what army Odium was hoping for if the Desolations wiped out like 9 out of 10 people each time. If it’s the living he wants in his army then the Desolations are really bad for that. But if it was the best of the dead, then that’s a different story and the Desolations are GREAT recruitment grounds. I don’t think it was part of Odium’s plan for humanity to recover this much since the Last Desolation, rather the perseverance of Taln.

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3 hours ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

Furthermore, I believe that the mythology of the Tranquiline Halls is probably a fabrication influenced by Odium to open the people up to the idea of being used in some sort of galactic war -- I mean, think about it; you'd be more likely to agree with going to war if you had spent your entire life believing that someday it would be humankind's destiny to wage a spiritual war for some far off lands than if you didn't.

The problem I have with Odium directly fabricating the Tranquiline Halls belief is that it seems to be an Alethi-only belief. The fact that the rest of Roshar doesn’t seem to have afterlife war myths suggests to me that it’s a naturally occurring religion, and Odium isn’t behind it.

Having said that, Odium can 100% take advantage of it now that it’s here.

3 hours ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

Personally, I took this way more literally; Odium wants to have the living military might of a combined Roshar (Humans and Singers) to kick start his conquests throughout the Cosmere, probably because the magic of the Knights Radiant and Spren make people into absolute tanks who could probably plow through all the other forms of investiture trying to resist them.

That was my assumption after reading ROW, too. Taking over all the armies of Roshar and having them work for you seems like a solid plan.

3 hours ago, Kahlani said:

I guess I do wonder though what army Odium was hoping for if the Desolations wiped out like 9 out of 10 people each time. If it’s the living he wants in his army then the Desolations are really bad for that. But if it was the best of the dead, then that’s a different story and the Desolations are GREAT recruitment grounds.

I don’t think the Desolations were intended to produce the armies Odium wants. I think they were his attempt to take over Roshar so that he could start building those armies. There’s no point in battle-hardening a bunch of soldiers who don’t take orders from you.

Or - maybe we’re overestimating Rayse and the truth is that he’s very bad at this!

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Good point you raise there @Kahlani. I think @RedBlue's answer to that question is quite likely; after all, you can't have an army of battle-hardened soldiers who haven't seen battle...

However, my personal counter argument that kinda further builds on this idea is as follows: is it not possible that the purpose of the Desolations, rather than being to wipe out the humans, was to destroy Honor, knowing that he could never have his human or singer armies until Honor, their god, was dead? Now, we don't particularly know how Honor died, but my personal belief is that a. the Recreance and b. the Herald's 'abandonment' of the Oathpact weakened Honor; he had invested a lot of power into the Knights Radiant and the Heralds, and they kinda just left him hanging, which I believe either temporarily dispersed some of his power, (or just drove him mad because of all the oaths being broken,) allowing Odium a chance to strike at a weakened Honor.

Now, why did the Recreance happen and why did the Heralds forsake their duties? The Desolations. I believe Odium's intent for the Desolations was to get Honor's followers to betray him and his Oaths, allowing him to strike at Honor.

Now, @RedBlue:

20 hours ago, RedBlue said:

The problem I have with Odium directly fabricating the Tranquiline Halls belief is that it seems to be an Alethi-only belief. The fact that the rest of Roshar doesn’t seem to have afterlife war myths suggests to me that it’s a naturally occurring religion, and Odium isn’t behind it.

Good points, and I probably misspoke when I said that the Tranquiline Halls is purely a fabrication (It's not entirely false, the humans did come from Ashyn and they probably do want to reclaim it), but I believe that Odium does not particularly care about / have as large a focus on the other human cultures on Roshar -- except maybe for any of the Knights Radiant among them -- because he wants and army, and with military might being something that the Alethi specialize in it would be the pretty obvious choice for his focus. My proof for this specific interest in Alethkar is that Nergaoul, the Thrill, was centered entirely on Alethkar. Maybe this is just because he knows that they will be the most perceptible to it, but I think that it's because he doesn't particularly care for anywhere else, and it would take a great deal of energy on Odium's part to influence the religion of an entire continent rather than a city.

Edited by a Faceless Immortal
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On 5/31/2021 at 8:29 AM, teknopathetic said:

Without any specific spoilers, In another cosmere series, someone is dying and their handler says something like "You are allowed to serve us in the next realm" or something like that, so it seems something is going on on multiple worlds. 

I am gonna assume this is either era two or Warbreaker. so what if Taravangian wins, continues the plan but with more subterfuge and better thought out, he go's undercover on Scadrial as Trell sending faceless fused all around, surrounds Scadrial with his forces scattered about to march on Scadrial soon. what if that happens and TOdium starts choking planets in a stranglehold.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 5/30/2021 at 5:59 AM, RedBlue said:

Or - maybe we’re overestimating Rayse and the truth is that he’s very bad at this!

My head canon for now is that Rayse's "greater war" was pure BS.  He got trapped in the Rosharan system like a punk so he made up a story about how he totally wanted the people from this system for his army, you know?  That's why he's here (cause he could definitely bust out whenever he wants), it's cause he needs his army :D

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 5/30/2021 at 6:59 AM, RedBlue said:

The problem I have with Odium directly fabricating the Tranquiline Halls belief is that it seems to be an Alethi-only belief. The fact that the rest of Roshar doesn’t seem to have afterlife war myths suggests to me that it’s a naturally occurring religion, and Odium isn’t behind it.

I think one could make the argument, that if Odium was behind the thrill, and the thrill was behind the war culture of the alethi people, then in a round about way he really would behind the naturally occuring religion.

On 6/21/2021 at 2:07 PM, TheCruelSadist said:

My head canon for now is that Rayse's "greater war" was pure BS.  He got trapped in the Rosharan system like a punk so he made up a story about how he totally wanted the people from this system for his army, you know?  That's why he's here (cause he could definitely bust out whenever he wants), it's cause he needs his army :D

That's what Rayse has been putting in his letters to Bavadin, "sorry just a few more millennium to finish preparing my army, and I'll be on my way over."

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 5/30/2021 at 6:59 AM, RedBlue said:

The problem I have with Odium directly fabricating the Tranquiline Halls belief is that it seems to be an Alethi-only belief. The fact that the rest of Roshar doesn’t seem to have afterlife war myths suggests to me that it’s a naturally occurring religion, and Odium isn’t behind it.

Having said that, Odium can 100% take advantage of it now that it’s here.

That was my assumption after reading ROW, too. Taking over all the armies of Roshar and having them work for you seems like a solid plan.

I don’t think the Desolations were intended to produce the armies Odium wants. I think they were his attempt to take over Roshar so that he could start building those armies. There’s no point in battle-hardening a bunch of soldiers who don’t take orders from you.

Or - maybe we’re overestimating Rayse and the truth is that he’s very bad at this!

Alethela was the silver kingdom specializing in war right?  And didn't Dalinar mention that the thrill was the open secret of Alethi military supremacy.  Perhaps Odium influenced the religion of the most warlike of rosharans in order to serve his future ends in the cosmere.

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