AceBassMan

Vax is the beyond

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So after listening to some excellent podcasts from Shardcast and their musings on the weirder things in the cosmere, I was struck by a theory about the term "Vax". There have been other posts here about Vax and various explanations, but the comments were closed, so here goes. I believe that Vax IS a location...in the Beyond/Spiritual Realm. Going off of Ati's last words before he goes to the beyond, he dies, shows up in the cognitive realm, looks around, and asks (mostly to himself) "Vax?", gets suckerpunched by our pal Kelsier, and stretches away to infinity. I think he was expecting to be in the beyond, and that it is possible for some, probably just shards, to travel there and back. Adonalsium could probably do it, so why not the shards? Brandon has said in the Arcanum that investiture works differently in Vax than other places, and considering the spiritual realm is the source of all investiture, I can't help but think it makes sense. Your thoughts?

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3 minutes ago, AceBassMan said:

So after listening to some excellent podcasts from Shardcast and their musings on the weirder things in the cosmere, I was struck by a theory about the term "Vax". There have been other posts here about Vax and various explanations, but the comments were closed, so here goes. I believe that Vax IS a location...in the Beyond/Spiritual Realm. Going off of Ati's last words before he goes to the beyond, he dies, shows up in the cognitive realm, looks around, and asks (mostly to himself) "Vax?", gets suckerpunched by our pal Kelsier, and stretches away to infinity. I think he was expecting to be in the beyond, and that it is possible for some, probably just shards, to travel there and back. Adonalsium could probably do it, so why not the shards? Brandon has said in the Arcanum that investiture works differently in Vax than other places, and considering the spiritual realm is the source of all investiture, I can't help but think it makes sense. Your thoughts?

Doesn’t Khriss seem to know what Vax is like?

She mentioned it in one Ars Arcanum

and Leras knows what it looks like too

And no Human would know what the Beyond is like, I would assume

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Vax is a confirmed place, The Beyond never will be

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Brandon's never gonna confirm anything about the Beyond, including its existence. He's talked about this multiple times:

Quote

dIvorrap

Was really Evi the voice that Dalinar heard when he opened Honor's perpendicularity?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. (You knew it was coming.)

So here's the thing--I'm never going to confirm or deny anything from beyond the Spiritual Realm. Because it is unfair for me to do so. I believe there is an afterlife in our world, while others (quite rationally) conclude there is not.

The Cosmere has systems in place for ghosts and things to be real, yes, but I want it to always be possible for intelligent people to disagree about things like Evi's voice. Spiritual Connection creates visions in the Cosmere that are quite realistic (like all the ones Dalinar experienced.)

What Dalinar heard here could very rationally be a version of such a vision. That's what the Death Rattles are, for example.

Or, it could be his dead wife speaking to him from beyond the grave. Navani would say that's what it is; Jasnah would say it's the first. I try very hard (despite my personal biases) to not undercut the viewpoint of someone who doesn't believe in an afterlife. It is vital to me that the author not sweep in and say, "Yeah, it's cool some characters are Atheists at all who doesn't believe in an afterlife...but nudge nudge, we both know there is one."

The existence of an afterlife (not Cognitive Shadow style, but in the Beyond) in the cosmere is subject to your own personal interpretation. Everything that happens like this CAN be explained by Realmatic Theory, with very valid examples from the books.

General Reddit 2020 (June 5, 2020)
Quote

Questioner

After people die, in this universe, where exactly do they go? Because, at first they appear in this one world, and then they go somewhere else.

Brandon Sanderson

So where do people go when they die. *laughter* In the cosmere. One of the things that's very important to me as a writer, when I am writing stories, is when we get to these kind of fundamental questions about faith and religion and things like this, that the narrative is allowing multiple characters' viewpoints to be plausibly true, if this makes sense. For instance, I am not gonna come out and say, "Is there a capital-G God of the cosmere, is there an afterlife?" These are not questions I'm gonna answer, because in-world, they can't answer them. What they can say is, your Investiture will leave what we call a Cognitive Shadow, which is an imprint of your personality that can do certain things. And that most of those fade away, and you can see them, glimpse them, and then watch them go. But, are they going somewhere? Or are they not? Is that simply the Investiture being reclaimed, Is it more of a Buddhist thought, where your soul is getting recycled and used again? Is it nothing, you return to, you know, being-- yeah, is it a different type of matter? Or is there a Beyond, is there a capital-G God? Things like this. These questions are not answered. I'm never gonna answer those.

Now, the characters will try to answer them. But it's important to me that both Dalinar and Jasnah can exist in the same universe, and that the story is not saying "This one is right, and this one is wrong." The story is saying "This is how this one sees the world; this is how this one sees the world." It's very important to me from the beginning to do that, just because-- Like, I hate reading a book where someone espouses my viewpoint only to get proven wrong by the entire structure of the narrative, and in that universe, that person is wrong. But I'm like, "In our universe, I don't think that I am. Just the way you constructed everything makes it so that I have to be wrong, if I were living in your universe, even if it's a universe that's not a sci-fi/fantasy one." If that makes sense.

This is just kind of for respecting my characters and for the people who hold the viewpoints of my characters, in particular if they happen to be different from my own viewpoints. I feel there are certain lines I'm not gonna cross.

So, the answer is: who do you believe? Which of the philosophies in the books do you look at and say "Yeah!" Or, even better: listen to lots of different ones, and maybe these different viewpoints are all gonna have interesting points that'll give you things to think upon.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

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Very good points about Brandon's refusal to nail down the Beyond, I wasn't aware of that stance of his. But now this is working to separate The Beyond and the Spiritual Realm in my mind, which I had thought were one and the same. I'm theorizing now that Vax could be a location in the Spiritual Realm, which the Shards ASSUREDLY have access to.

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Posted (edited)

19 minutes ago, AceBassMan said:

Very good points about Brandon's refusal to nail down the Beyond, I wasn't aware of that stance of his. But now this is working to separate The Beyond and the Spiritual Realm in my mind, which I had thought were one and the same. I'm theorizing now that Vax could be a location in the Spiritual Realm, which the Shards ASSUREDLY have access to.

But how would Khriss think it has a significance in reference to Taldain?

Also I think SR is weird and all places are one kind of thing

Coppermind:

The Spiritual Realm is not a place.[3] The Spiritual Realm is made up entirely of Investiture in the form of Spiritwebs and the Connections between them.[4][5] As such, time and space are "irrelevant" or "compounded into one" in the Spiritual Realm.[6]This timelessness means that the Spiritual Realm breaks causality, but in a controlled way.[7]

 

Edited by Bejardin1250
Mixed up Elantris and Taldain
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6 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

But how would Khriss think it has a significance in reference to Elantris?

*Taldain

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5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

*Taldain

Oh that’s right, but it’s in the Elantris Ars Arcanum so it’s pretty close

 

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Vax could be the singular "place" in the Spiritual Realm where all things converge.

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39 minutes ago, AceBassMan said:

Vax could be the singular "place" in the Spiritual Realm where all things converge.

2 problems

1: why would Ruin confuse that with Scadrial

2: Wouldn’t that just be called the Spiritual Realm?

also why would there be so much secrecy over the alternate name of the SR

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I think it could be confusion from Ati as he lost his shard and died, and the secrecy could be about whether its possible to visit the Spiritual Realm. Also, Shadesmar is/is in the cognitive realm so there is precedent for this kind of naming convention.

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9 minutes ago, AceBassMan said:

I think it could be confusion from Ati as he lost his shard and died, and the secrecy could be about whether its possible to visit the Spiritual Realm. Also, Shadesmar is/is in the cognitive realm so there is precedent for this kind of naming convention.

It’s... possible?

But I would be really really surprised if it’s true

And incredibly disappointed 

 

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How so? I would be rather interested to see some perspective from the spiritual realm, I truly enjoy when B-Sands can bring us into alien mindsets and picture mind-warping realities, like shard perspectives. Also I think it makes more sense that Ati would think he was in the place you go when you die rather than an entirely different planet from the one he knew he was just on.

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Just now, AceBassMan said:

How so? I would be rather interested to see some perspective from the spiritual realm, I truly enjoy when B-Sands can bring us into alien mindsets and picture mind-warping realities, like shard perspectives. Also I think it makes more sense that Ati would think he was in the place you go when you die rather than an entirely different planet from the one he knew he was just on.

You don’t go to the SR when you die you go to the Beyond

Its much more implied that Scadrial looks like Vax and I don’t think The SR looks like anything just Investiture 

Theres a lot of mystery around Vax and Brandon RAFOs everything on it and in 20 years she reveals it’s just another name for SR I’ll be a tad disappointed, yes

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Vax has an associated system of Investiture and a way to be Initiated into it. The Spiritual Realm basically is Investiture. The two are not going to be one and the same.

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All I know is Sands is going to find a way to visualize how things work/appear/interact in the Spiritual Realm, and that it has the potential to have differences within it much akin to the differences between the Scadrian Cognitive Realm and the Rosharan Cognitive Realm. Id be surprised if there isn't something living there somehow, with one of the candidates being spren. Spren essentially have access to all three realms, since they are a piece of the divine, and windspren can choose to appear more in the Physical Realm, but otherwise only appear as a ribbon of light on Roshar and a pinprick of light in Shadesmar. I think creationspren are similar as well. 

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2 minutes ago, AceBassMan said:

All I know is Sands is going to find a way to visualize how things work/appear/interact in the Spiritual Realm, and that it has the potential to have differences within it much akin to the differences between the Scadrian Cognitive Realm and the Rosharan Cognitive Realm. Id be surprised if there isn't something living there somehow, with one of the candidates being spren. Spren essentially have access to all three realms, since they are a piece of the divine, and windspren can choose to appear more in the Physical Realm, but otherwise only appear as a ribbon of light on Roshar and a pinprick of light in Shadesmar. I think creationspren are similar as well. 

Shards live mostly in the SR 

spren are Cognitive

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Cognitive only? I think windspren have a true form somewhere. In Oathbringer, when Kaladin draws the windspren to him on the ship, and the honospren tell him that winsdpren live mostly in the Physical Realm, I would have imagined that they'd have a larger form there. So I'm still not satisfied we've seen the entirety of any windspren. 

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30 minutes ago, AceBassMan said:

Cognitive only? I think windspren have a true form somewhere. In Oathbringer, when Kaladin draws the windspren to him on the ship, and the honospren tell him that winsdpren live mostly in the Physical Realm, I would have imagined that they'd have a larger form there. So I'm still not satisfied we've seen the entirety of any windspren. 

There is evendence to say that if something has a cognitive side, it must have a spiritual and physical acspect as well.

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Definitely some examples, like when the returned in Warbreaker are on the other side before they come back, I wonder if they are in the Cognitive Realm or the Spiritual Realm. 

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11 hours ago, AceBassMan said:

Definitely some examples, like when the returned in Warbreaker are on the other side before they come back, I wonder if they are in the Cognitive Realm or the Spiritual Realm. 

Cognitive Realm

They see the SR for a second but they are CS

 

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Any time Shards interact, is it in the Cognitive Realm or the Spiritual Realm?

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10 hours ago, AceBassMan said:

Any time Shards interact, is it in the Cognitive Realm or the Spiritual Realm?

They can be in any realm but they usually interact in Cognitive

But the main body of their power is in the spiritual 

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Not entirely sure of that, where do the visions that Honor left for Dalinar take place? Where do the meetings between Odium and the various people he's visited take place? If you were in the Cognitive Realm near Venli when Odium visits would you see Odium come strolling along? 

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8 hours ago, AceBassMan said:

Not entirely sure of that, where do the visions that Honor left for Dalinar take place? Where do the meetings between Odium and the various people he's visited take place? If you were in the Cognitive Realm near Venli when Odium visits would you see Odium come strolling along? 

Sorry misinterpretation, They can interact anywhere but in SH we see Leras in the Cognitive 

They are usually only in spiritual I would believe but you could see them in Cognitive when they interact their

WoB

Quote


 

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