Was the Sibling a Deadye?

[ElMonoEstupendo]

The question's in the title. Maybe it's obvious, and there's a passage I'm forgetting, so let me know if this is duh.

We know the following, either directly from text or WoB:

1. Nine out of ten Orders of Knights Radiant took part in the Recreance.
2. There was only one Bondsmith alive at the time: Melishi, bonded to the Sibling.
   1. Melishi was definitely alive for the Binding of Ba-Ado-Mishram.
   2. The Binding was very shortly before the Day of Recreance.
3. The Sibling was considered dead for a long time. Many of their functions shut down, and they lost their Light.

It seems a slam dunk, to the extent that I'm amazed the connection isn't explicit in the book, or even the question. Did I miss something?

It also means that Adolin isn't the only person to rehabilitate a deadeye - Dabbid has too.

[Crucible of Shards]

I believe the Sibling says outright that after they bound BAM they intentionally ended their bond with Melishi. No oaths were broken. They lost their light as an unintentional consequence of BAM’s capture. As the Radiants were already abandoning Urithiru, and subsequently breaking their oaths, there was no one either willing or able to check up on the Sibling, so it was assumed that the Sibling became a deadeye.

[Weltall]

Something was happening to the Sibling before the Recreance, two of the gemstone recordings (by the same Elsecaller) explicitly mention this. One implies that there was debate among the Radiants about whether they were withdrawing from humanity by intent but the speaker thinks they have evidence to the contrary. This same person mentions that some of the tower's systems are failing, again, before the Recreance. Another Radiant (a Skybreaker) thinks that Honor himself is changing in some way and this is affecting the Radiants as well. This tracks quite well with the timeline of Tanavast's death and the fact that Odium's 'tone' has become a part of Roshar.

And yeah, the Sibling basically went quiet because there was nobody left who could communicate with them for thousands of years and the entities who could presumably have told us otherwise (Cultivation and the Stormfather) weren't interested in correcting the misconception.

[+mdross81]

During Adolin's trial, the honorspren mention that the Sibling ended the bond prior to the Recreance. From RoW 87:

Quote

Amuna spun toward Adolin. "Do you know what would happen, Prince Adolin, if the Stormfather were to be killed?"

Adolin paused, then shook his head.

"A wise answer," she said. "As no one knows. We were fortunate that no Bondsmiths existed at the time of the Recreance, though how the Sibling knew to end their bond early is a matter of dispute."

I hadn't really noticed the part about a "matter of dispute" before, though. I wonder what exactly the differing sides of that dispute think about how the Sibling knew to end the bond?

[AquaRegia]

I think the answer to the question is "no".  The Sibling was never a deadeye.

They CHOSE to remain hidden and thought dead.  Dabbid didn't seek out The Sibling.  How could he?  No one in the tower even knew they existed.  THEY chose to contact him, which indicates that they were awake, aware, and capable of action.  I'd argue that The Sibling helped to rehabilitate Dabbid, rather than the other way around.

[Frustration]

14 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

I'd argue that The Sibling helped to rehabilitate Dabbid, rather than the other way around.

Who said anything else?

[AquaRegia]

@Frustration it was in the original post of this topic:

3 hours ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

... Adolin isn't the only person to rehabilitate a deadeye - Dabbid has too.

[ElMonoEstupendo]

4 hours ago, mdross81 said:

During Adolin's trial, the honorspren mention that the Sibling ended the bond prior to the Recreance. From RoW 87:

I hadn't really noticed the part about a "matter of dispute" before, though. I wonder what exactly the differing sides of that dispute think about how the Sibling knew to end the bond?

That's pretty solid, thank you. It means all those sources and wiki entries saying nine Orders abandoned their oaths in the Recreance are straight-up wrong, though I suppose they could be mistaken in-universe. On the other hand, the current honorspren were definitively not around at the time, and have been shown to not be too in-the-know regarding the whole affair. Maybe the only people who would know for sure are the Heralds, the Sibling themselves, and the newly-revived deadeyes.

3 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

I think the answer to the question is "no".  The Sibling was never a deadeye.

They CHOSE to remain hidden and thought dead.  Dabbid didn't seek out The Sibling.  How could he?  No one in the tower even knew they existed.  THEY chose to contact him, which indicates that they were awake, aware, and capable of action.  I'd argue that The Sibling helped to rehabilitate Dabbid, rather than the other way around.

The two aren't mutually exclusive - people and spren help each other heal.

Adolin started connecting with Maya long before there was any communication between them. The process of taking care of his Blade, making use of it, spending time with it, all of these processes could be applied to a thousand people making oneself their home.

5 hours ago, Crucible of Shards said:

I believe the Sibling says outright that after they bound BAM they intentionally ended their bond with Melishi. No oaths were broken. They lost their light as an unintentional consequence of BAM’s capture. As the Radiants were already abandoning Urithiru, and subsequently breaking their oaths, there was no one either willing or able to check up on the Sibling, so it was assumed that the Sibling became a deadeye.

Ah, if it's from the horse's mouth that's the end of the matter. I think it probably also puts paid to my pet theory that the Recreance was the very same day as the Binding. Oh well!

[+Harrycrapper]

24 minutes ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

That's pretty solid, thank you. It means all those sources and wiki entries saying nine Orders abandoned their oaths in the Recreance are straight-up wrong, though I suppose they could be mistaken in-universe. On the other hand, the current honorspren were definitively not around at the time, and have been shown to not be too in-the-know regarding the whole affair. Maybe the only people who would know for sure are the Heralds, the Sibling themselves, and the newly-revived deadeyes.

The two aren't mutually exclusive - people and spren help each other heal.

Adolin started connecting with Maya long before there was any communication between them. The process of taking care of his Blade, making use of it, spending time with it, all of these processes could be applied to a thousand people making oneself their home.

Ah, if it's from the horse's mouth that's the end of the matter. I think it probably also puts paid to my pet theory that the Recreance was the very same day as the Binding. Oh well!

Another possibility I thought of is that the Sibling's Bond was broken as a result of or during the process of binding BAM. So, the Sibling wasn't made into a deadeye because the full scope of the damage that binding BAM caused wasn't in full effect. 

[ElMonoEstupendo]

15 hours ago, Crucible of Shards said:

I believe the Sibling says outright that after they bound BAM they intentionally ended their bond with Melishi. No oaths were broken. They lost their light as an unintentional consequence of BAM’s capture. As the Radiants were already abandoning Urithiru, and subsequently breaking their oaths, there was no one either willing or able to check up on the Sibling, so it was assumed that the Sibling became a deadeye.

Hang on. Spren can end their bonds! That seems like a much cleaner solution to dangerous Surgebinding than the Recreance...

A relevant WoB:

Quote

Aradanftw

If you were to use Hemalurgy on a Surgebinder, would it steal the Surge or the actual spren bond?

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to steal the spren bond, but you've got to remember the spren has power over that bond. So what you're doing is (1) incredibly evil, even more evil, but (2) you may not end up with what you want, because that spren has free will in most cases. You may go through all this trouble and then they may break the bond, and you would be left without it. So you would need something else to force them to be unable to break the bond, which would be even more evil, but it is possible in Hemalurgy.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

I wonder if a spren breaking the bond damages the human the way the opposite does. Would that make Melishi a "deadeye"? And if it doesn't, why the hell did all those Radiants simultaneously break their bonds? They knew it would at least be very painful to their spren, if not as-good-as lethal. It was done by the spren's choice, per Maya.

If that all adds up, there must be something else entirely going on with the Recreance. A reason for the drama, the timing, more than just not-Surgebinding-for-the-sake-of-the-planet.

[+mdross81]

15 hours ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

That's pretty solid, thank you. It means all those sources and wiki entries saying nine Orders abandoned their oaths in the Recreance are straight-up wrong, though I suppose they could be mistaken in-universe. On the other hand, the current honorspren were definitively not around at the time, and have been shown to not be too in-the-know regarding the whole affair. Maybe the only people who would know for sure are the Heralds, the Sibling themselves, and the newly-revived deadeyes.

Good point about the honorspren not being reliable sources. And even with them saying that the Sibling ended their bond, Melishi may still have been a part of it. It may have been a mutual thing, in which case it could still be accurate to say that the order of Bondsmiths abandoned its oaths.

You're also right that the Sibling seems to know more than they've told us so far. Here they are speaking with Navani in RoW 40:

Quote

You know too much, the Sibling said. It makes me uncomfortable. You know and do things that weren't possible before.

"They were possible, they simply weren't known," Navani said. "That is the nature of science."

What you do is dangerous and evil, the Sibling said. Those ancient Radiants gave up their oaths because they worried they had too much power - and you have gone far beyond them.

Right there at the end it seems like the Sibling knows at least part of the story of the Recreance.

(Side note: Could hemalurgy somehow be used to trap a bonded Radiant spren in a fabrial? I wonder if that's what Brandon is hinting at in the WoB you referenced above, when he says "you would need something else to force them to be unable to break the bond, which would be even more evil, but it is possible in Hemalurgy").

But then the Sibling is not the most reliable source either. Take this passage earlier in the same chapter:

Quote

I have avoided your kind. You were supposed to think I was dead. Everyone was supposed to think I was dead.

"I'm glad you're not. You said you were the soul of the tower. Can you restore its functions?"

No, the voice said. I really was asleep. Until ... a Bondsmith. I felt a Bondsmith. But the tower is not functional, and I have not the Light to restart it.

On the one hand, the Sibling says that they really were asleep until they felt a Bondsmith and awakened, which seems to suggest an involuntary slumber. But on the other the Sibling admits that their slumber was a ruse intended to make people think they were dead.

5 hours ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

Hang on. Spren can end their bonds! That seems like a much cleaner solution to dangerous Surgebinding than the Recreance

...

If that all adds up, there must be something else entirely going on with the Recreance. A reason for the drama, the timing, more than just not-Surgebinding-for-the-sake-of-the-planet.

Yeah, there's definitely some big piece of the puzzle that we're still missing with the Recreance. I've come to suspect that Honor knew he was dying, and that was why he ranted about the dangers of Surgebinding. He knew that upon his death the limits he had imposed on the powers would be lifted. Why that caused the Radiants and the spren to decide that a coordinated abandonment of oaths was the right move, however, I don't know.

[Could Be Fire]

On 5/11/2021 at 11:00 AM, mdross81 said:

During Adolin's trial, the honorspren mention that the Sibling ended the bond prior to the Recreance. From RoW 87:

I hadn't really noticed the part about a "matter of dispute" before, though. I wonder what exactly the differing sides of that dispute think about how the Sibling knew to end the bond?

This makes the timeline super interesting though because if binding BAM causes the sibling to lose power which causes them to break their bond with Melishi then it wasn't just BAM's binding that caused every bond broken after it to form deadeyes, there must have been some other factor (maybe Honor's death?). 

Of course, the alternative explanation is a timeline like:

Honor's death --/-- Melsihi Decides to Imprison BAM --> Sibling gets Mad and Breaks Bond --> BAM Bound --> Deadeyes

So it is just BAM-binding that causes Deadeyes and the sibling was 'lucky' enough to break their bond early because of extenuating factors (Melsihi's crazy plan and/or Honor's death). But I would think if Honor died first, the Honorspren would comment on it and assume that's why the Sibling rejected Melshi and it wouldn't be a "matter of dispute". 

[+mdross81]

4 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

This makes the timeline super interesting though because if binding BAM causes the sibling to lose power which causes them to break their bond with Melishi then it wasn't just BAM's binding that caused every bond broken after it to form deadeyes, there must have been some other factor (maybe Honor's death?). 

Of course, the alternative explanation is a timeline like:

Honor's death --/-- Melsihi Decides to Imprison BAM --> Sibling gets Mad and Breaks Bond --> BAM Bound --> Deadeyes

So it is just BAM-binding that causes Deadeyes and the sibling was 'lucky' enough to break their bond early because of extenuating factors (Melsihi's crazy plan and/or Honor's death). But I would think if Honor died first, the Honorspren would comment on it and assume that's why the Sibling rejected Melshi and it wouldn't be a "matter of dispute". 

I still think it's possible that it was just BAM's binding (plus a Radiant forsaking their oaths) that caused the deadeyes.

But you're absolutely right that this makes the timing super interesting. Melishi must have still had his powers, and therefore must still have been bonded when BAM was imprisoned. And then sometime between the imprisonment and the Recreance, Melishi and the Sibling agree to mutually end the bond. I think that the Sibling wasn't deadeyed because it was a mutual severing, as opposed to Melishi forsaking his oaths.

Hard to say when Honor started the process of dying (death is a long process for a shard), but we do know from the Sibling that he still lived in some way - although he was going mad - when BAM was imprisoned:

Quote

That terrible act touched the souls of all who belong to Roshar. Spren too.

"How have no spren mentioned this?"

I don't know. But I lost the rhythm of my Light that day. The tower stopped working. My father, Honor, should have been able to help me, but he was losing his mind. And he soon died...

So the timeline has to go: Melishi binds BAM --> Singers are lobotomized; the Sibling loses the ability to make Towerlight (Melishi also loses this ability because he was only able to do it through his bond with the Sibling); and Urithiru begins to shut down --> Sibling ends the bond with Melishi --> Recreance --> Honor "dies"

Edit: clarified that it wasn't just BAM being imprisoned that caused the deadeyes but a Radiant forsaking their oath after BAM's capture

Edited May 17, 2021 by mdross81

[Could Be Fire]

1 hour ago, mdross81 said:

So the timeline has to go: Melishi binds BAM --> Singers are lobotomized; the Sibling loses the ability to make Towerlight (Melishi also loses this ability because he was only able to do it through his bond with the Sibling); and Urithiru begins to shut down --> Sibling ends the bond with Melishi --> Recreance --> Honor "dies"

I think the key point here is the last two points. Do we know that the Recreance happens before Honor dies?

Since you showed that Sibling clearly ends bond after the BAM is imprisoned then if it was just the binding that caused deadeyes, wouldn't they have become one? Unless you think that's because the Sibling is a unique spren, but the comments at Adolin's Trial suggest that even Stormfather/Sibling are as vulnerable to what happened. 

It seems to me that we're missing something, and to me, the simplest answer is that it was Honor dying on top of BAM being bound that combined to create the situation were breaking a bond creates deadeyes instead of just temporarily injuring the spren. 

[+Bzhydack]

15 minutes ago, Could Be Fire said:

Since you showed that Sibling clearly ends bond after the BAM is imprisoned then if it was just the binding that caused deadeyes, wouldn't they have become one? Unless you think that's because the Sibling is a unique spren, but the comments at Adolin's Trial suggest that even Stormfather/Sibling are as vulnerable to what happened. 

I have very specific theory about all thos events.

 

[+Oltux72]

On 12.5.2021 at 1:05 AM, ElMonoEstupendo said:

That's pretty solid, thank you. It means all those sources and wiki entries saying nine Orders abandoned their oaths in the Recreance are straight-up wrong,

Well, not nevessary. Melishi could still have abandoned his oaths, though without killing the Sibling as the bond had already been broken.

On 12.5.2021 at 11:01 AM, ElMonoEstupendo said:

If that all adds up, there must be something else entirely going on with the Recreance. A reason for the drama, the timing, more than just not-Surgebinding-for-the-sake-of-the-planet.

The timing suggests that it was a reaction to the consequences of the capture of B-A-M

 

On 12.5.2021 at 4:48 PM, mdross81 said:

But then the Sibling is not the most reliable source either. Take this passage earlier in the same chapter:

On the one hand, the Sibling says that they really were asleep until they felt a Bondsmith and awakened, which seems to suggest an involuntary slumber. But on the other the Sibling admits that their slumber was a ruse intended to make people think they were dead.

Again that the choice of going to sleep was voluntary does not mean that the choice of waking up early was voluntary.

 

 

3 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

This makes the timeline super interesting though because if binding BAM causes the sibling to lose power which causes them to break their bond with Melishi then it wasn't just BAM's binding that caused every bond broken after it to form deadeyes, there must have been some other factor (maybe Honor's death?). 

We do not know that a mere breakage of the bond caused it, as opposed a breakage by abandoning oaths. In fact we do know that the death of a Radiant does not make a deadeye.

3 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

Of course, the alternative explanation is a timeline like:

Honor's death --/-- Melsihi Decides to Imprison BAM --> Sibling gets Mad and Breaks Bond --> BAM Bound --> Deadeyes

The capture required a Bondsmith's power. Hence Melishi must still have been bound.

3 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

So it is just BAM-binding that causes Deadeyes and the sibling was 'lucky' enough to break their bond early because of extenuating factors (Melsihi's crazy plan and/or Honor's death). But I would think if Honor died first, the Honorspren would comment on it and assume that's why the Sibling rejected Melshi and it wouldn't be a "matter of dispute". 

What exactly is the dispute? If you take the wording literally they were in disagreement about how the bond was broken or even how The Sibling had learned how to break bonds, not the reason.

22 minutes ago, Could Be Fire said:

I think the key point here is the last two points. Do we know that the Recreance happens before Honor dies?

He included it in his recordings.

[+mdross81]

26 minutes ago, Could Be Fire said:

Since you showed that Sibling clearly ends bond after the BAM is imprisoned then if it was just the binding that caused deadeyes, wouldn't they have become one?

 

4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

We do not know that a mere breakage of the bond caused it, as opposed a breakage by abandoning oaths. In fact we do know that the death of a Radiant does not make a deadeye.

@Oltux72 has it right here. It's not just the binding of BAM but also having a Radiant forsake their oaths after BAM's capture that led to a spren being deadeyed. So the Sibling did not become a deadeye because they ended their bond of their own volition - as opposed to Melishi forsaking his oaths.

7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Again that the choice of going to sleep was voluntary does not mean that the choice of waking up early was voluntary.

Fair point.

11 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

He included it in his recordings.

Also, there's this WoB:

Quote

Questioner

Dalinar's visions are the memories of Honor, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Yes, they are things specifically created by Honor...

Questioner

Does that mean that the Recreance happened before Honor's death... since Dalinar sees it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. But Honor's death, like Preservation's death, is a protracted event.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

From that I think it's pretty clear that the end of the protracted event that was Honor's death occurred after the Recreance. It's anybody's guess as to when the process of dying started.