Jazzman88

The Dilemma of Justice and Choice

106 posts in this topic

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Cultivation didn't change him, shards do not have the ability to do that, she only took memories

16 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Memories make up a person

 “A man is a s of his experiences” right?

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

A soul is left.

Without the context of experience a soul is just a newborn child

 

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Killing Evi? Who wasn't there?

Dalinar would have gone for an assult as planned not burned it to the ground.

Sadeas would have found a way to bring retribution to Rathalas, whether with the thrill or without but that’s a side point that we can come back to later if you want

 

8 minutes ago, theTruthshaper said:

You... did? Here:

That was a misunderstanding I meant Dalinar changed alot

 

9 minutes ago, theTruthshaper said:

I am extremely confused. A man is memories + drive + good stuff?  (Or do you particularly mean Dalinar is?)
Why is his drive what makes him?

Yes a man is his experiences and his drive, without that there is no growth

 

10 minutes ago, theTruthshaper said:

Well, we hardly have any evidence for this either way, so all I can say this that this seems extremely unlikely, but we'll probably have to agree to disagree.

 

You also have no evidence that Dalinar would have changed at all without Cultivation while I have evidence to the counter

 

11 minutes ago, theTruthshaper said:

The thing you call as a "horrible evil look" was Dalinar being Odium's Champion, right? Do you think that is likely without the Thrill?

No

do you have OB on you right now? 
look at page 1076 3/4 down the page right until he sees the Nightwatcher (I can’t copy the whole thing right now) he sees his future in the forest 

2 minutes ago, theTruthshaper said:

That shards cannot do that.

Cultivation took Dalinars memories that is a fact we have known for years

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2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Memories make up a person

 “A man is a s of his experiences” right?

Without the context of experience a soul is just a newborn child

But Cultivation hardly took all of his memories, only a few of them. She took away a part of Dalinar. You cannot say that the sum of Dalinar is Rathalas and his memories with Evi.

 

7 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

You also have no evidence that Dalinar would have changed at all without Cultivation while I have evidence to the counter

I never said that Dalinar would have changed without Cultivation? I am just confused why you consider that being changed by Cultivation and the effect of Thrill is so different. Your argument is that he became a very different person due to Cultivation's infuence Do you think that Dalinar would not have been a wildly different person if not for the effect the Thrill had on him??

 

12 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Cultivation took Dalinars memories that is a fact we have known for years

I think you misunderstood me. Frustration said that shards cannot change people, I said that they did not have any proof for that claim.

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19 minutes ago, theTruthshaper said:

That shards cannot change people

If Shards had that power

MB

Spoiler

Ruin would have done so.

Additionally https://wob.coppermind.net/events/107/#e1375

 

28 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Memories make up a person

 “A man is a s of his experiences” right?

Without the context of experience a soul is just a newborn child

I don't think so, not here and definetly not in the Cosmere, there are patterns, Identity built in to the soul.

29 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Sadeas would have found a way to bring retribution to Rathalas, whether with the thrill or without but that’s a side point that we can come back to later if you want

Again with a standard assault as planned. And honestly Tanalan deserved as much.

30 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

You also have no evidence that Dalinar would have changed at all without Cultivation while I have evidence to the counter

When Jasnah reads WoK Dalinar desideds to change.

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9 hours ago, theTruthshaper said:

But Cultivation hardly took all of his memories, only a few of them. She took away a part of Dalinar. You cannot say that the sum of Dalinar is Rathalas and his memories with Evi.

 

She took away key components of his life 

Rathatlas, his wife, the things he’s done..

Once you take those away he’s not necessarily the same man. (He’s still Dalinar obviously but not evil Dalinar)

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

don't think so, not here and definetly not in the Cosmere, there are patterns, Identity built in to the soul.

9 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

We.Get.Dalinars.Future.

In the Nightwatcher scene (if anybody’s got an E-Book copy they could paste it here) 

He was not going to change into a better man

This was his most probable future, so it is what we are going to work with

I repeate. It implies explicitly in the text Dalinar would not have been a better man without Cultivation. That is the crux of my rebuttal so please don’t ignore it

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

If Shards had that power

Could be that wasn’t Ruins power set Cultivation is growth change Ruin is Decay

If Cultivation can take away some memories that means she can take whatever she wants right? If she takes select memories and only leaves memories that she wants, and takes away all the drives she doesn’t

Doesn’t this mean he is changed? 

But again: Sidepoint

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28 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

She took away key components of his life 

Rathatlas, his wife, the things he’s done..

Once you take those away he’s not necessarily the same man. (He’s still Dalinar obviously but not evil Dalinar)

Only Rathalas and his wife. You can hardly say that they were the key components of his life. At most you can say that she regressed him back to pre-Rathalas in some ways.

 

30 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I repeate. It implies explicitly in the text Dalinar would not have been a better man without Cultivation. That is the crux of my rebuttal so please don’t ignore it

You are ignoring my point that Dalinar wouldn't have been the monster without the Thrill. Indeed, the Alethi might have been much more peaceful. You can hardly say that the Thrill did not have a very very big impact on who Dalinar was.

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2 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

We.Get.Dalinars.Future.

In the Nightwatcher scene (if anybody’s got an E-Book copy they could paste it here) 

He was not going to change into a better man

This was his most probable future, so it is what we are going to work with

That is the same future we see after Cutlivation so that's a moot point.

2 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Could be that wasn’t Ruins power set Cultivation is growth change Ruin is Decay

Ruin is destruction, Ruin is invasive he corrupts. I think it is a flawwed argument to assume that Cultivation can do something Ruin couldn't without evidece to the contrarry. Marsh had 20+ spikes and Ruin was one of the shards that created scadrians so he has more power over them than Cultivation would have over Rosharans, if he coulsn't do it it's unlikely that any shard could.

2 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

If Cultivation can take away some memories that means she can take whatever she wants right? If she takes select memories and only leaves memories that she wants, and takes away all the drives she doesn’t

Doesn’t this mean he is changed? 

She only took part of the rift and Evi. And I think that even without memory if Dalianr had been a bad person he wouldn't have changed and would have been the same person.

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12 hours ago, theTruthshaper said:

I never said that Dalinar would have changed without Cultivation? I am just confused why you consider that being changed by Cultivation and the effect of Thrill is so different. Your argument is that he became a very different person due to Cultivation's infuence Do you think that Dalinar would not have been a wildly different person if not for the effect the Thrill had on him??

A minor change may cause monumental developments, while a huge change may no have no further impact.

I'd say you just cannot take the immediate effect and expect the long term consequences to be proportional.

Quote

 

I think you misunderstood me. Frustration said that shards cannot change people, I said that they did not have any proof for that claim.

Well, it may also depend on the consent of the people to be changed. It is clearly possible to alter memories by arcane means.

(Scadrial)

Spoiler

Every copper Ferring does so, basically

 

On a fundamental level I must say that this discussion ignores that Rathalas was not an outright crime.

A horrible thing, yes, a crime, very debatable. Had Dalinar stood in front of an impartial Rosharan court, he might very well have been acquitted. The Blackthorn is doubtlessly a violent killer, but not necessarily a criminal. The idea that war is bad is not shared among the Rosharans, the Alethi least of all.

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32 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

A minor change may cause monumental developments, while a huge change may no have no further impact.

I'd say you just cannot take the immediate effect and expect the long term consequences to be proportional.

I am not sure about what you are disagreeing with me. My argument is that you cannot simply say the Dalinar did not become a better person, just because he was changed by Cultivation. (I agree with both of your points here, which is also why I am confused)

 

34 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

On a fundamental level I must say that this discussion ignores that Rathalas was not an outright crime.

A horrible thing, yes, a crime, very debatable. Had Dalinar stood in front of an impartial Rosharan court, he might very well have been acquitted. The Blackthorn is doubtlessly a violent killer, but not necessarily a criminal. The idea that war is bad is not shared among the Rosharans, the Alethi least of all.

Legality is not the same as morality. This discussion is focusing on the morality of actions.

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8 hours ago, Frustration said:

She only took part of the rift and Evi

She took the part which was bothering him the most: The Screams She also took most of his guilt

 

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

That is the same future we see after Cutlivation so that's a moot point.

11 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Dalinar never burns another city so I don’t know what your talking about

 

10 hours ago, theTruthshaper said:

You are ignoring my point that Dalinar wouldn't have been the monster without the Thrill. Indeed, the Alethi might have been much more peaceful. You can hardly say that the Thrill did not have a very very big impact on who Dalinar was.

I don’t see the meaning of this...

Dalinar literally accepts that he did the things on Rathalas not the thrill he says no such thing by Cultivation 

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49 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

She took the part which was bothering him the most: The Screams She also took most of his guilt

And?

49 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Dalinar never burns another city so I don’t know what your talking about

Renarin, Odium, Taravangian all saw Dalinar falling so future sight is a moot point

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Just now, Frustration said:

Renarin, Odium, Taravangian all saw Dalinar falling so future sight is a moot point

Future sight is only moot if there is another Shard that interferes which is what happened with the Nohadon visions I believe

 

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

And

This fundamentally changed him

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21 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Future sight is only moot if there is another Shard that interferes which is what happened with the Nohadon visions I believe

I was menaing by an argument standpoint, you can't say that Cultivation was the only reason Dalinar didn't fall because visions of the future showed him doing it, because the same thing was seen afterwards.

22 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

This fundamentally changed him

No more than normal circumstances can.

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51 minutes ago, Frustration said:

you can't say that Cultivation was the only reason Dalinar didn't fall because visions of the future showed him doing it, because the same thing was seen afterwards.

But this just isn’t true that’s the problem

 

52 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No more than normal circumstances can.

Except this wasn’t a normal circumstance in normal circumstances a person does something 

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20 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

But this just isn’t true that’s the problem

What was not true?

21 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Except this wasn’t a normal circumstance in normal circumstances a person does something 

Do you think Cultivation was mind controling Dalinar the whole time?

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9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Do you think Cultivation was mind controling Dalinar the whole time?

No but she single handededly changes him

 

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

What was not true?

That what Dalinar saw happened later on

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Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

No but she single handededly changes him

And?

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

That what Dalinar saw happened later on

You can't say that the future showing Dalinar's downfall before Cultivation counts as him inevitably falling without her aid and then claim that the future after that event showing the same thing doesn't prove that she wasn't the only influence because it didn't happen.

I understand that that doesn't makes a lot of sense so I'll put it this way.

 

You say that Cultivation was the sole reason Dalinar didn't fall to Odium becasue a vision in the valley showed he would.

However, we see multiple uses of Future sight AFTER the Valley that showed Dalinar falling to Odium reguardless.

Therefore Cultivation was not the sole reason, nor should it be infered that Dalinar was doomed without her influence

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Posted (edited)

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You say that Cultivation was the sole reason Dalinar didn't fall to Odium becasue a vision in the valley showed he would.

 

The vision had nothing to do with Odium

 

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And

So...Dalinar want to redeem  was because of Cultivation 

Edited by Bejardin1250
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Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

The visions had nothing to do with Odium

What?

you said

13 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

We.Get.Dalinars.Future.

In the Nightwatcher scene (if anybody’s got an E-Book copy they could paste it here) 

He was not going to change into a better man

This was his most probable future, so it is what we are going to work with

I repeate. It implies explicitly in the text Dalinar would not have been a better man without Cultivation. That is the crux of my rebuttal so please don’t ignore it

How does the visions the Stormfather sent have anything to do with it?

 

2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

So...Dalinar want to redeem  was because of Cultivation 

Did Cultivation offer forgiveness, or did Dalinar ask for it?

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1 minute ago, Frustration said:

How does the visions the Stormfather sent have anything to do with it?

They don’t? 
The vision in the Nightwatcher scene

 

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Did Cultivation offer forgiveness, or did Dalinar ask for it?

His ask of forgiveness was not a sincere ask, all he wanted was to get rid of the voices

Cultivation gave him the want to actually change to a good person

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Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

They don’t? 
The vision in the Nightwatcher scene

So how does them not being from Odium have anything to do with it?

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

His ask of forgiveness was not a sincere ask, all he wanted was to get rid of the voices

Cultivation gave him the want to actually change to a good person

Proof?

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2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Proof

That’s what he implies, he only wants to be forgiven because he can’t take the screams

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So how does them not being from Odium have anything to do with it?

4 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

It doesn’t?

on the subject of proof

Future sight is pretty accurate without intervention

So by all probability Dalinar would not have changed for the goodness 

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Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

That’s what he implies, he only wants to be forgiven because he can’t take the screams

And that's different than guilt?

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

It doesn’t?

Than why did you bring it up?

1 minute ago, Bejardin1250 said:

on the subject of proof

Future sight is pretty accurate without intervention

So by all probability Dalinar would not have changed for the goodness 

Again future showed the same thing before and after so that argument doesn't mean anything.

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Just now, Frustration said:

And that's different than guilt?

Yes guilt is feeling sorry for what you did

not going mad from supernatural screams

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Than why did you bring it up?

I don’t remember bringing up an Odium vision only a Cultivation one

 

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Again future showed the same thing before and after so that argument doesn't mean anything.

When did we get the same vision after

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Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

Yes guilt is feeling sorry for what you did

not going mad from supernatural screams

normal responce to magical events, I don't see anything wrong with it.

1 minute ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I don’t remember bringing up an Odium vision only a Cultivation one

the fact that it wasn't from Odium

17 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

The vision had nothing to do with Odium

there

2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

When did we get the same vision after

The Vision at the begining of OB, Renarin, the Diagram, Odium, The painting in Celebrant etc.

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Ok ok I think I see the problem here 

We are probably talking about 2 Separate visions

let me right it down here

Quote

“Suddenly he saw himself in the Unclaimed Hills, fighting those treacherous Parshmen, he saw himself killing and hacking and murdering. He saw lust eyes wide and teeth clenched in a dreadful grin a skulls grin...It was the only way. If a town resisted you burned it to the ground...this was his future

OB (Paraphrased)

This has nothing to do with Odium I think

 

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

normal responce to magical events, I don't see anything wrong with it.

It’s not guilt

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