The Dilemma of Justice and Choice

[Jazzman88]

Warning: wall of text, privilege, systemic social issues

Spoilers: complete Cosmere works, up to and including Rhythm of War

I’m going to lay out what I see as an underlying thesis and theme of the various depictions of anger/vengeance/redemption/justice in the Stormlight Archive. My positionality in approaching this issue is that of a well-off, well-educated, cis-het white male, so keep that in mind any time I make an assertion that contradicts your lived experience. I expect that to happen, and can and should be challenged for it where warranted.

I’d like to start with the concept of redemption, which is a strong theme of the Stormlight Archive, and more broadly speaking Brandon’s works in general. It’s important to separate our extra-textual understanding of Brandon as a religious person, because while that can inform his writing, it’s important to treat the text on its own explicit and meta-narrative levels without resorting to ‘because the writer is ___________’. All text has its own purpose the writer intends, as well as possibly contradictory understandings some or many readers form as they engage with the text.

So, many characters of the Stormlight Archive are either in some process of redemption or have the ability to undergo a process of redemption: Dalinar, Moash, Szeth, Shallan (amongst many others) have either explicit harmful actions in their backstory or some kind of ‘low point’ to climb from. Whether that is specifically due to their own conscious choices varies, but the idea of redemption is present throughout the whole text. I was struck by the assertion in the latest Shardcast that ‘redemption is not something you deserve’, which I think is apropos here. To reduce it to its simplest form: you cannot ‘make up’ for killing someone. There is no price you can pay that is worth the pain of that cut-off life to those who are left behind. Questions of fairness cannot enter into a discussion of ‘redemption’.

I teach a variety of subjects to middle school students, both music (my specialty), as well as religious studies, ethics, and health education (all kind of wrapped up in one course). One of the ideas we discuss frequently is that it is really problematic to answer the question ‘what is good?’ or ‘what does it mean to be a good person?’ No one would think positively of someone who walks into a room and says ‘Yes, I am a good person!’ We would interpret that as bragging, covering for hidden flaws, and various other negative connotations.

So, then, what is ‘good’? What does it mean to be in the process of redemption? In judging this, we can take some textual evidence for what the Stormlight Archive envisions. Dalinar at one point states that ‘a hypocrite is just someone who is in the process of changing’ (paraphrase mine). I think this is perhaps the most obvious lampshading of the text’s understanding of redemption. Dalinar acknowledges that inconsistency is not a flaw of the process, it is an integral sign that redemption is possible. Only by acting counter to the way one used to can you demonstrate a true change - after all, if it’s not visible and clear to understand, you haven’t really changed.

Another element to this process is the importance of choice. The Stormlight Archive, in spite of the strong ties to the typical ‘prophecy/future-sight’ approach of much epic fantasy, goes to significant lengths to show the critical impact of the free will of individuals. The fact that Elhokar is cut down at the very beginning of his journey towards what we might consider (potential) heroism by an individual who has begun a downwards arc of villainy demonstrates that choice matters. An individual has far-reaching and irreversible consequences on the lives they touch. Once freed from the blind obedience to the Oathstone, Szeth could easily have chosen to end his life permanently in dealing with the trauma of acknowledging his pain and the consequences of his actions. But he did not. 

I think this goes a long way towards contextualizing why we react so differently to the various characters (who are or have been pretty terrible people). Dalinar is someone who was, objectively speaking, a monster. He was a war criminal, a sadist, and a butcher, responsible for hundreds of deaths at his own hands, and thousands more committed under his direct orders, including all manner of non-combatants, who were bystanders in an aggressive war of conquest where their families were trying to resist what they saw as an invader. This is the kind of person that anyone would be justified in taking pleasure or relief if they were to be executed for their crimes. The amazing thing about Dalinar as a character is that the easy path would be one where he continues to drink himself into oblivion, especially once he regains his memories. We almost get that in Oathbringer. Having gone through all that he has gone through, knowing what he knows about the person he used to be, he could abdicate his positions, insist he be jailed or executed, and attempt to go for what we might consider a typical form of accountability. But he doesn’t. He chooses to live with his pain, and chooses in spite of that pain to attempt better. There is no forgiveness. He can’t and doesn’t expect it. Forgiveness is a demonstration by the wronged that they are strong in spite of the pain, not an absolution for the guilty.

Now we can contrast this with Moash. Moash is justified in feeling anger towards Roshone and Elhokar for the injustices committed against his family. He has experienced a similar loss to Kaladin, Teft, and others who have all suffered at the hands of the nobility. He feels incredible pain, and seeks methods to redress those wrongs. And so he chooses to attempt (and of course, eventually succeed) at taking the lives of those who have taken so many others. What is interesting about Moash is that his choice is one that in fact copies what was done to him. The way it is written makes it clear that Moash is another tragic event in an endless cycle of tragic events. His choice continues the cycle, in contrast to Dalinar’s, which attempts to alter the cycle. It’s worth noting that although Moash succeeds in ending Elhokar’s life, he does nothing himself to address the possibility of another ‘Moash’ happening in the future. Jasnah talks a good game about changing the way the monarchy works, but that cannot be laid at Moash’s feet (we’re not here to take away her agency). After getting his vengeance, Moash goes on to experience the result of giving up his emotion to Odium, feeling vacant, and outwardly pursuing a course of extreme nihilism, attempting to encourage others to seek oblivion. It wouldn’t be hard to imagine Moash’s ideal end goal becoming the nothingness that we might remember from Ruin’s viewpoints in Mistborn. So Moash chooses a path that brings him some kind of warped form of peace, but certainly drastically alters how others perceive him, as well as inflicting another cycle of pain on those left behind (we can already seen the results of this in how Gavinor envisions his future as a warrior in Rhythm of War). But, for better or (especially in this case) worse, Moash’s choice matters.

From the comparison of these two viewpoints, let’s turn towards Kaladin and the Knights Radiant in general. The text has gone out of its way to show that the Radiants are flawed. Both in past and current incarnations, oaths have been broken, injustice has been allowed to continue, and even those chosen for Radiance almost by necessity exhibit near-fatal flaws. Kaladin suffers from mental health issues, trauma, and an almost crippling inability to let others take responsibility instead of him. Syl is constantly trying to work with him on how to take that drive, that pain, and turn it into action to help and protect others. And he frequently fails - boy, how does he fail! In spite of that failure, we get great moments where he chooses the hard way, standing up for his beliefs in spite of his failure. Nowhere is this more obvious than the scene in Words of Radiance where he defends Elhokar (from Moash, no less). Kaladin up to this point has actively chosen courses of action that make Elhokar’s death at the hands of his friend more likely. His key realization is a version of the statement earlier on that no price is sufficient for a lost life! He realizes that people are people, and someone murdering the king would be in many ways identical to his brother being killed. He explicitly calls out that what matters is that Elhokar is trying. Elhokar’s choice matters, and if his choice matters, then Kaladin’s matter, too. And he swears the second oath as a result. We are shown through the relations between Kaladian/Syl, and the Radiants and their spren that that is not what matters. What matters is that they try. What matters is their choices.

I face this issue a lot when trying to teach students about social justice and systemic oppression. The problems confronted by any imperfect society are monolithic, and the reproduction of those systems is buried deep in the patterns of how we are raised from a very young age. And so it can seem daunting to contemplate changing it. In fact, it is actually impossible that any one person will effect enough change to see the results in their lifetime. It would be easy in that situation to throw one’s hands up and say ‘I can’t change the world, so I might as well not go through the heartache.’ I think that the text is saying that that is no excuse. Just because you can’t change the way the world works by yourself is not an excuse to not choose to try. If enough people make that choice, that is what changes the world. As the text says “What is the most important step a man can take? It’s the next one.”

So what is good, or justice, in the Stormlight Archive? Good means choosing to do better. Not best, but better. Anyone is capable of this at any time. Is it justice that they are not killed for their crimes? Not precisely. It is justice that the attempt is made, and it is justice that the wrongs are acknowledged. Dalinar’s story so far has done a better job of showing us that acknowledgement than, say, Szeth’s. Although everyone else acknowledges what Moash has done, critically, he has not. He has not chosen the path that leads to redemption yet. Is it possible? If what truly matters is the person’s choice, as I would argue the text believes, then it is possible that Moash may make the choice at some point to pursue that road. It will be painful. It will be unpleasant. Readers and in-text bystanders alike will have a hard time stomaching it.

But, and this is why we love those stories, it reminds us that none of us are so imperfect that we cannot, too, choose redemption.
 

[Bejarden]

There are two things required for redemption

1: The Want

2: putting in the work and sticking to it 

Moash has neither of these so he will not be redeemed as of this moment, but that can change

Dalinar is...interesting he does not ‘deserve’ what he has, if he was the same person as he was during the Rift it would not have been given  to him, but due to Shardic intervention he got his redemption without the Want, but he put in the work after the Forest scene in OB 

I do think this will be dealt with in KoW

 

 

[Aspiring Writer]

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Dalinar is...interesting he does not ‘deserve’ what he has, if he was the same person as he was during the Rift it would not have been given  to him, but due to Shardic intervention he got his redemption without the Want, but he put in the work after the Forest scene in OB

Dalinar had already changed by the time he went to the forest, feeling terrible for all he had done. That is why Cultivation helped him. her interference wasn't the first change that was made, he made the first one, and asked for help when the trauma he was facing wouldn't let him continue, so she relieves him of the trauma until he is strong enough to accept it. It is still all Dalinar, he just needed some help to keep from stumbling.

[Bejarden]

4 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Dalinar had already changed by the time he went to the forest, feeling terrible for all he had done. That is why Cultivation helped him. her interference wasn't the first change that was made, he made the first one, and asked for help when the trauma he was facing wouldn't let him continue, so she relieves him of the trauma until he is strong enough to accept it. It is still all Dalinar, he just needed some help to keep from stumbling.

Dalinar did not put in the work for Redemption

Going to the Nightwatcher does not make you worthy l. Being a Drunk does not make you worthy

Sacrifice makes you worthy, and I felt that Dalinar did not make any of those until after Cultivation had changed him

Cultivation pruned him and he grew back stronger but it was still Cultivation that made it at all possible 

[Aspiring Writer]

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

Dalinar did not put in the work for Redemption

Going to the Nightwatcher does not make you worthy l. Being a Drunk does not make you worthy

Sacrifice makes you worthy, and I felt that Dalinar did not make any of those until after Cultivation had changed him

Cultivation pruned him and he grew back stronger but it was still Cultivation that made it at all possible 

I never said worthy, I said he made the first changes, he had the want. Cultivation made it possible, but it was still him that chose to go to her and accept the boon. 

[Bejarden]

1 minute ago, Aspiring Writer said:

I never said worthy, I said he made the first changes, he had the want. Cultivation made it possible, but it was still him that chose to go to her and accept the boon. 

He wanted to change, but he didn’t care how 

He hated who he was but didn’t know who he wanted to be

To Want is to want to be better

I haven’t read OB in awhile if anyone could find the what Dalinar said to Cultivation that would be great

[Honorless]

This is technically not really in keeping with the topic you started (and I'm really sorry about that! And I'm afraid it might be very... basic, and it's probably not going to cultivate a lot of discussion, and it's basically just a point raised about rhetoric) but I find it really curious that when people talk about killing in relation to the justice system, the victim themselves is kind of sidelined, in relation to the people they left behind. The value of someone's life isn't just about their value to others (though obviously we should all aspire to be better than scum-on-Earth). Someone just suddenly... isn't because of another's action. Like, a person isn't just services rendered, or is defined by their so-and-so relationship with other people. They are also themselves. And there is some inherent value to that, imo.

~tangent end~ sorry to bring that up here but people just always phrased things this way and I kept noticing it like ◐.̃◐

[Aspiring Writer]

10 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He wanted to change, but he didn’t care how 

He hated who he was but didn’t know who he wanted to be

To Want is to want to be better

I haven’t read OB in awhile if anyone could find the what Dalinar said to Cultivation that would be great

He wanted to be better, he just did not know how. Him not knowing what he wanted to be doesn't disclude that he wanted to be better. Otherwise, why would he feel guilty, and why would he go to seek help?

[Bejarden]

He took the easy way out

He could have made amends for the first 10 years after the Rift or maybe not abuse his children or maybe not have become a drunkard

If you go to a magical creature to artificially change you that demonstrates to me that you don’t have enough want to change on your own

[Aspiring Writer]

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He took the easy way out

He could have made amends for the first 10 years after the Rift or maybe not abuse his children or maybe not have become a drunkard

If you go to a magical creature to artificially change you that demonstrates to me that you don’t have enough want to change on your own

He was traumatized by his experiences, he could hear storming voices in his head, he was not in a state of mind to try and do that.
 

Also, he was neglectful of his children, not abusive. 

mate, he heard voices, are you going to blame him for trying? He mentioned trying other ways to give himself peace, like going to the Vorin chruch, and it didn't work. Now he's trying to ask this being for help, a being he considered heresy to meet. He clearly had the want, he was just struggling too much with the memories he held.

[Quick Ben]

7 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Also, he was neglectful of his children, not abusive. 

 

Neglect is abuse, 

8 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

He was traumatized by his experiences, he could hear storming voices in his head, he was not in a state of mind to try and do that.
he heard voices, are you going to blame him for trying? He mentioned trying other ways to give himself peace, like going to the Vorin chruch, and it didn't work. Now he's trying to ask this being for help, a being he considered heresy to meet. He clearly had the want, he was just struggling too much with the memories he held.

People always seem to be too willing to cut Dalinar slack, Dalinar wasn't seeking to redeem himself or atone for what he had done, what he wanted was forgiveness without redeeming or atoning for what he done (not that he can)

If he had been offered the same thing as Moash, he would of took it then. 

[Bejarden]

He wanted forgiveness, but not for the sake of forgiveness.

he wanted the voices to stop, and the only way he could think of it was ‘forgiveness’ devoid of all its meaning because forgiveness must be given by the ones you have hurt

[Leuthie]

19 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He wanted forgiveness, but not for the sake of forgiveness.

he wanted the voices to stop, and the only way he could think of it was ‘forgiveness’ devoid of all its meaning because forgiveness must be given by the ones you have hurt

Intentions don't matter. Actions and their consequences matter. It doesn't matter WHY Dalinar took the first step, or even what he hoped that first step would lead to. The simple fact is, he took the first step. He wanted to change. There's your want. His actions from that point on have been toward becoming better.

You wanting to take all of that away from him because the journey didn't start with perfectly pure intentions is hateful.

Quote

This is technically not really in keeping with the topic you started (and I'm really sorry about that! And I'm afraid it might be very... basic, and it's probably not going to cultivate a lot of discussion, and it's basically just a point raised about rhetoric) but I find it really curious that when people talk about killing in relation to the justice system, the victim themselves is kind of sidelined, in relation to the people they left behind. The value of someone's life isn't just about their value to others (though obviously we should all aspire to be better than scum-on-Earth). Someone just suddenly... isn't because of another's action. Like, a person isn't just services rendered, or is defined by their so-and-so relationship with other people. They are also themselves. And there is some inherent value to that, imo.

~tangent end~ sorry to bring that up here but people just always phrased things this way and I kept noticing it like ◐.̃◐

The victim is dead. The value lost is completely determined by those left behind. Funerals aren't for the dead, they're for those left behind. We don't bury our dead and have ceremonies because it adds value to the dead. We do so because it's important to the community grieving process. These processes have often been codified using religious wrappings, like sending the dead off to Valhalla or making sure they rest easy, but that's all just created stories to make grieving easier. The value of the dead is entirely within those left behind. And maybe as fertilizer.

When I die, I won't care about anything. I'll be dead. The people that will matter will be my wife, my kids, my friends. If I didn't have those, my death wouldn't matter in the least, nor would my life. My experiences, memories, joys, sorrows are my own and disappear when my brain stops firing. There's no lasting value to those things. All of the value I represent is in what I add to the lives of others.

In short: there's no internal value to a person, only the value they bring to others.

Of course, this results in an ultimate "ponzi scheme" of value where all of the created value of experience is lost with the death of the last person. Humans have been dealing with that and will continue dealing with that until that last person dies.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Leuthie

[Jazzman88]

On 5/9/2021 at 0:17 PM, Bejardin1250 said:

Dalinar is...interesting he does not ‘deserve’ what he has, if he was the same person as he was during the Rift it would not have been given  to him, but due to Shardic intervention he got his redemption without the Want, but he put in the work after the Forest scene in OB 

I agree - the larger point I'd like to make here is that 'deserving' redemption is just another way of categorizing people into who you have chosen to empathize with and who you have chosen not to. Making redemption about deserving it or making amends is a lost cause, because it's inherently impossible to make amends for the kind of bad things that have been done. What matters is trying to be better (and sometimes failing!). I believe that's a really important theme of Stormlight.

 

1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

Intentions don't matter. Actions and their consequences matter. It doesn't matter WHY Dalinar took the first step, or even what he hoped that first step would lead to. The simple fact is, he took the first step. He wanted to change. There's your want. His actions from that point on have been toward becoming better.

Also seconded. You can even flip it on its side to use the opposite case as a good example of why this is the case. If I say a racist thing, even as a joke, and someone is hurt by that language, the fact that I meant it as a joke is of no consequence. My intention to be funny is irrelevant, because someone experienced pain from my actions and choices. What I do next matters. Brushing it off as being too sensitive is choosing to not acknowledge the other's pain. Choosing to apologize and do better the next time attempts (but does not guarantee!) to make the future a better one. Again, making the choice is the critical factor.

[AquaRegia]

Thank you for this thought-provoking topic.  

We all have ideas which are shaped by our own experiences.  Some things I have learned on my journey so far:

1)  None of us is worthy of anything.  I'm not personally religious, but I see value in many religious tenets, and this is definitely one.  Many religious traditions stress the idea of "undeserved gifts from God", and things like "grace", "serenity", "forgiveness" and "redemption" are often among them.  I didn't do anything to deserve the country I was born into, or the loving parents I had.  I didn't build the modern hospital I was born in or any of schools I attended.  I was not and CANNOT be "worthy" (or "unworthy") of these gifts I received.

To assert that any person is "worthy" or "unworthy" of the things they have strikes me as dangerously presumptuous... and leads to meritocracy and other unsavory worldviews.

2)  The benefit of forgiveness is experienced by the one doing the forgiving.  If you wrong me, the way YOU experience that event is entirely up to you.  You are also responsible for how you experience my forgiveness.  But I have two choices for ME: I can remain angry and hurt and harbor a resentment for my whole life, or I can forgive you your flaws and mistakes, and thus be able go on with my life without that emotional burden.  This quote was specifically about Dalinar, but it applies to all of us:

On 5/9/2021 at 2:03 PM, Jazzman88 said:

There is no forgiveness. He can’t and doesn’t expect it. Forgiveness is a demonstration by the wronged that they are strong in spite of the pain, not an absolution for the guilty.

Jesus taught "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."  As imperfect, flawed humans, we spend all day, every day, stepping on each other's toes.  Forgiveness is the only way to live without being consumed by resentment.  I saw a quote recently along the lines of "anger is a punishment we give to ourselves because someone else made a mistake."  

[Bejarden]

7 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Intentions don't matter. Actions and their consequences matter. It doesn't matter WHY Dalinar took the first step, or even what he hoped that first step would lead to.

This is in fact the only thing that matters

Forgiveness means nothing given at the hands of a outside entity, asking for forgiveness from that means that you don’t care about the people you hurt, all you care about is you

If at the end it worked out, fine that’s ok

But it doesn’t mean that you should have gotten forgiveness or redemption because without that Want the Work is meaningless

Maybe I should rephrase what I meant originally when I said Want

It means you truly feel bad about what you did and want to make up for it, in your heart of hearts you regret it and you are ready to sacrifice to redeem yourself 

putting in the work is a direct correlation to this, you can want something to be done but if you don’t do it it is worthless 
Dalinar wasn’t interested in doing any work, but after the Want was instilled in him, he started trying 

[Aspiring Writer]

3 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Forgiveness means nothing given at the hands of a outside entity, asking for forgiveness from that means that you don’t care about the people you hurt, all you care about is you

Remember that he didn't go there planning to ask for forgiveness, it was a very spur-of-the-moment thing after hearing and seeing things and being in a very bad state in mind, and I'm referring to literally before he asks the Nightwatcher, he sees and hears things. Oh, and he doesn't ask for forgiveness from the Nightwatcher, he asks, "Can I ever be forgiven", a line I guarantee you have forgotten because it disproves your entire argument. He is asking whether or not he is capable or ever will be capable of being forgiven for what he had done, if it was even possible, which is reasonable to ask when you do not think you are a good person yourself. So yes, he does care.

 

3 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

But it doesn’t mean that you should have gotten forgiveness or redemption because without that Want the Work is meaningless

But as I have proven, he had the want. He went all the way to a being he considered heresy to meet. When given the choice of keeping or losing the memories, he decided he didn't deserve the memories of her and allowed the process to finish. he had the want.

 

3 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

It means you truly feel bad about what you did and want to make up for it, in your heart of hearts you regret it and you are ready to sacrifice to redeem yourself 

You mean like allowing a Shard to take your memories of a person you cherish? And trying to get peace of mind so he can become a better person?

 

3 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

putting in the work is a direct correlation to this, you can want something to be done but if you don’t do it it is worthless 
Dalinar wasn’t interested in doing any work, but after the Want was instilled in him, he started trying 

No, he was trying, like I said, e mentioned doing things like going to the Vorin church to get peace, which he dies need if he's going to improve, you can expect someone whose depressed and lazy to not be lazy without fixing the depressed part, and he can't fix that on his own, he needs help, and the Alethi were never going to give him that help. SO he went to his last resort, a heretical being that his wife had mentioned.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Aspiring Writer

[Frustration]

On 5/9/2021 at 0:17 PM, Bejardin1250 said:

Dalinar is...interesting he does not ‘deserve’ what he has, if he was the same person as he was during the Rift it would not have been given  to him, but due to Shardic intervention he got his redemption without the Want, but he put in the work after the Forest scene in OB 

I do think this will be dealt with in KoW

He did want it, he saught out Cultivation on his own. And on top of that his memories returned and he choose to stop drinking and do better.

 

 

Redemption is the overcoming of a past failing.

 

Repentence is improving yourself so you do not repeat past failure

 

Forgiveness is not holding past failure against someone who has achived repentence.

 

On 5/9/2021 at 0:03 PM, Jazzman88 said:

I face this issue a lot when trying to teach students about social justice and systemic oppression. The problems confronted by any imperfect society are monolithic, and the reproduction of those systems is buried deep in the patterns of how we are raised from a very young age. And so it can seem daunting to contemplate changing it. In fact, it is actually impossible that any one person will effect enough change to see the results in their lifetime. It would be easy in that situation to throw one’s hands up and say ‘I can’t change the world, so I might as well not go through the heartache.’ I think that the text is saying that that is no excuse. Just because you can’t change the way the world works by yourself is not an excuse to not choose to try. If enough people make that choice, that is what changes the world. As the text says “What is the most important step a man can take? It’s the next one.”

One man can change the wolrd and in fact many have. Alexander the Great, Hitler, Gahndi, Stalin, Krustchev, Kennedy.

[LordFlea]

On 10/05/2021 at 7:50 AM, Bejardin1250 said:

Dalinar did not put in the work for Redemption

Going to the Nightwatcher does not make you worthy l. Being a Drunk does not make you worthy

Sacrifice makes you worthy, and I felt that Dalinar did not make any of those until after Cultivation had changed him

Cultivation pruned him and he grew back stronger but it was still Cultivation that made it at all possible 

I think what you mean to say is that Cultivation gave Dalinar an opportunity. Dont forget that Renarin saw Dalinar fall. In that one moment he made the choice that mattered, his choice.

 

Saying that Dalinar would be nothing without cultivation is true, but the same could be said of Kaladin and Syl. Kale would long be dead at the bottom of a chasm if Syl hadnt given him that poison leaf.

 

In the end it was that they both made the right choice when given the opportunity to that defined them.

[Bejarden]

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

Redemption is the overcoming of a past failing.

 

Repentence is improving yourself so you do not repeat past failure

 

Forgiveness is not holding past failure against someone who has achived repentence.

All of these can only be granted by the person you hurt

If I hurt you I cannot ask someone else to forgive me

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

All of these can only be granted by the person you hurt

If I hurt you I cannot ask someone else to forgive me

You can ask God.

[AquaRegia]

We seem to be having a fundamental disconnect about forgiveness.

Some of us see forgiveness as something to be ASKED FOR by the perpetrator, and GIVEN to the perpetrator by the victim.

Others (myself included) do not see forgiveness as a transaction.  It is a powerful spiritual remedy which happens completely within the one who was wronged.  I forgive those who wrong me not to benefit them, but so that I can live my life free from anger and resentment.  If my forgiveness helps someone else, that's a wonderful side effect, and it does sometimes happen - but it's not the purpose.  Forgiving ALWAYS helps me.

Dalinar did not seek the Nightwatcher for forgiveness; he is wise enough to not expect forgiveness.  Nor does he require forgiveness in order to be "worthy" of redemption.  We are all worthy, all the time.  No one has gone so far into darkness that they may not turn back toward the light.

[Aspiring Writer]

5 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

All of these can only be granted by the person you hurt

If I hurt you I cannot ask someone else to forgive me

Did you ignore my post? He did not ask for forgiveness from the Nightwatcher or Cultivation, he asked, "Can I ever be forgiven", which is very different, your argument is pointless.

[Leuthie]

20 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

This is in fact the only thing that matters

Forgiveness means nothing given at the hands of a outside entity, asking for forgiveness from that means that you don’t care about the people you hurt, all you care about is you

If at the end it worked out, fine that’s ok

But it doesn’t mean that you should have gotten forgiveness or redemption because without that Want the Work is meaningless

Maybe I should rephrase what I meant originally when I said Want

It means you truly feel bad about what you did and want to make up for it, in your heart of hearts you regret it and you are ready to sacrifice to redeem yourself 

putting in the work is a direct correlation to this, you can want something to be done but if you don’t do it it is worthless 
Dalinar wasn’t interested in doing any work, but after the Want was instilled in him, he started trying 

Then let's fast forward to when the memories were returned and start the journey there. Let's bring in another character:

"There's not a day goes by I don't feel regret. Not because I'm in here, because you think I should. I look back on the way I was then: a young, stupid kid who committed that terrible crime. I want to talk to him. I want to try to talk some sense to him, tell him the way things are. But I can't. That kid's long gone, and this old man is all that's left. I got to live with that." - Red, Shawshank Redemption

THAT'S where redemption starts. Want doesn't mean anything. Regret doesn't mean anything. Work doesn't mean anything. You accept what you were, accept where you are, and go forward. When Dalinar's memories returned, the gift was removed. He could have failed at that point. He didn't. He continued moving forward. He even let everyone know everything about his past. Not because he was proud of the change or proud of the journey, but because he knew it was all bu**s**t if people weren't aware of the wrongs he did.

So you're entirely right, but you're ignoring the journey because you don't like how it started. 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Leuthie

[Frustration]

11 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

THAT'S where redemption starts. Want doesn't mean anything. Regret doesn't mean anything. Work doesn't mean anything. You accept what you were, accept where you are, and go forward. When Dalinar's memories returned, the gift was removed. He could have failed at that point. He didn't. He continued moving forward. He even let everyone know everything about his past. Not because he was proud of the change or proud of the journey, but because he knew it was all bu**s**t if people weren't aware of the wrongs he did.

Just for clarification because I think this can be said clearer.

Redemption starts by accepting and confessing that you did x, and x is wrong, and then by choosing to be someone else, forsaking who you were in exchange for being someone better