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I was doing some research about different Surges the other day, and when I read about the surge of stone shaping, I started wondering about it. Specifically, when a Willshaper or a Stoneward uses their Stormlight to shape a stone, does it become like clay and they have to mold it? Or (this would be way cooler) would they be able to sort of command it with their mind so they don't have to actually dig tunnels through rock, etc. I may simply have this question because I missed a part in the descriptions in both the book and the info pages. But if the latter is tue for Willshapers and Stonewards, it would be wicked cool! 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I believe- so don't take my word for it- that the second is more accurate, at least for higher ideal or masterful stonewards/willshapers. Now we see Venli using her cohesion to mould the bars of the cell someone's in (I forget who's) the urithuru occupation by the fused, but the legends of radiants changing the landscape at will and the vision dalinar had of the stone changing shape to stairs under the radiants feet I think shows that your second option is correct. Amaram when fused with that unmade in the battle of thalen field also changed the ground to essentially liquid when he fought kaladin, so I'm pretty sure I'm right on the fact that either tension or cohesion can be used with mental or verbal commands, and without the intervention of the user (using their hands to shape it etc)

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I agree with @Phlipz1's analysis. The fact that Venli can talk to the stone seems to hint that stoneshaping follows the same rules as Sanderson's other "intuitive magics". The wonderful thing about his Realmatic Theory is that it provides a rational reason for magics like Awakening to be so intuitive that you can just say "fetch keys" and the little straw figure is going to figure out how to fetch the keys. You don't have to do all the programming, because everything has a level of sentience and can figure out Intent and Command. It stands to reason that Venli will progress from having to think really hard to perform Stoneshaping to being able to intuitively give Commands and have them be followed, just like how in WoR Kaladin had to think about all his Lashings, and in RoW he can just fly. (obviously there's a difference in mechanics between the two but the point--"Magic users progress from intentional use to intuitive use" is there)

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DThanks! Yeah everything Technovore said I agree with. In later books Venli will likely progress to the stonewards radiant (assuming he wasn't using tension which Im pretty sure he wasn't) level that I mentioned from dalinars vision. Since they are taking a larger interest in the heralds we may see Venli take training from the willshaper one and finally use transportation as well. I'm thinking it will be smoother than jasnahs as she seems more intuitively soulcasting, and as some radiant orders appear better at using shared surges than others, maybe we will finally have a true teleporter on our hands who can get in and out of the cognative realm at will, not search for a perpendicularity or else be stuck there

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On 22/05/2021 at 9:07 PM, Phlipz1 said:

I believe- so don't take my word for it- that the second is more accurate, at least for higher ideal or masterful stonewards/willshapers.

Making the ground so soft it's basically liquid would be Tension, not Cohesion :)

On 23/05/2021 at 1:27 AM, The Technovore said:

It stands to reason that Venli will progress from having to think really hard to perform Stoneshaping to being able to intuitively give Commands and have them be followed, just like how in WoR Kaladin had to think about all his Lashings, and in RoW he can just fly. (obviously there's a difference in mechanics between the two but the point--"Magic users progress from intentional use to intuitive use" is there)

So basically learning magic is like learning how to ride a bicycle? Seems legit

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37 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Making the ground so soft it's basically liquid would be Tension, not Cohesion :)

So basically learning magic is like learning how to ride a bicycle? Seems legit

Well, for some magic systems, it's really not intuitive, like Forgery and Aons that require specific mastery and attention to detail. But contrast that with the more intuitive Feruchemy and Awakening--especially Awakening, where Intent and Command are intrinsically connected and it requires little skill to make things happen if you have the knowledge and ability--although the nature of Breaths may help that. Surges seem to be toward the softer side, where Stoneshaping and Soulcasting are accomplished with stormlight and a friendly conversation with the object being targeted. I guess I'm saying some Cosmere magics are that easy, and I'd wager Surges are one of those easier magics.

Edited by The Technovore
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with allomancy of course being the easiest to get a basic grasp of in my opinion. i apologise for getting the tension thing wrong though i would have said that the liquid was cohesion, making the grounds bonds weaken to allow formation of structures after, like the stairs. thats my head anyways, not trying to argue :)

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On 5/23/2021 at 7:38 PM, mathiau said:

Making the ground so soft it's basically liquid would be Tension, not Cohesion :)

Actually, they were correct in saying it was cohesion:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

The Willshapers have to have Cohesion, because Cohesion is the "grab something solid and melt it and push it in any direction you want..." it's the weak atomic force.

It's, you can take this and push your hand into it and leave a hand print, or things like that, and that's a Willshaper thing, not a Bondsmith thing.

Footnote: In the context of looking at the Radiant chart
Words of Radiance Seattle signing (March 8, 2014)

 

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Pagerunner's wonderful thread can come in handy with figuring out what exactly Tension and Cohesion are supposed to do:

Though it's an older thread and doesn't contain the new stuff like Commands within the Surge of Cohesion, and the ancient Dawnsingers having access to some similar ability. I don't think we got anything new regarding Tension. Didn't see the Dustbringers in action either.

 

Since Cohesion acting as the Surge of Stoneshaping (I phrased it as "acting" because Cohesion unchained would be as glorious as Microkinesis) apparently functions via Commands, similar to Awakening via BioChromatic Breath, you should be able to use it without needing to mold the stone with your hands. It functions via Connection to the very stones of Roshar, so it shouldn't require physical contact to use either.

Edited by Honorless
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On 5/23/2021 at 7:38 PM, mathiau said:

Making the ground so soft it's basically liquid would be Tension, not Cohesion :)

Speaking of, I remember they explained on the 3rd Shardcast episode on the Radiants that there was some confusion about which surges the Willshapers and Bondsmiths have. With Rhythm of War, we've seen Venli change stone, my question is if that on its own solves the problem with what the Stormfather said, or if that's a continuity problem. 

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13 minutes ago, Cheyenne Sedai said:

Speaking of, I remember they explained on the 3rd Shardcast episode on the Radiants that there was some confusion about which surges the Willshapers and Bondsmiths have. With Rhythm of War, we've seen Venli change stone, my question is if that on its own solves the problem with what the Stormfather said, or if that's a continuity problem. 

That question comes up a lot actually, here you go:

Quote

Pagerunner

I was at the Houston signing, and Brandon referred me to you on a few technical questions that I was asking him, since he he was quite "brain dead."

First was what Surges the Bondsmiths have. Based on the ordering in the Ars Arcanum in WoR and OB, they should have Tension. But the application of the shared Surge we saw for both Stonewards and Bondsmiths in OB looks to line up more with Brandon's previous description of Cohesion from the Words of Radiance tour. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/223/#e6061, although he did identify it as a Willshaper Surge there.) Brandon believed it was an error in the Ars Arcanum, and that Bondsmiths do have Cohesion, but he told me to confirm that with you.

Peter Ahlstrom

What power did you see in the book that Bondsmiths and Stonewards share?

Pagerunner

In Chapter 38:

The Shardbearer pressed his hand against the incline leading up to the Voidbringer, and again the stone seemed to writhe. Steps formed in the rock, as if it were made of wax that could flow and be shaped.

...

"And that Shardbearer I saw? A Herald?"

No. Merely a Stoneward. The Surge that changed the stone is the other you may learn, though it may serve you differently.

Which seems to align with how Brandon has previously described Cohesion in the past, as opposed to Tension.

I assume this Surge is what Dalinar used to repair the temple of Talenel in Chapter 59, but that's not actually essential to the point.

Peter Ahlstrom

I think this has to be an error in the text.

Pagerunner

Sorry, which do you think is the error? The order of Surges in the Ars Arcanum? Or the Stormfather's statement to Dalinar?

Peter Ahlstrom

The Stormfather's statement.

Peter Ahlstrom

I have verified with Brandon that what the Stormfather said here is wrong and will be corrected in the future.

General Reddit 2017 (Dec. 14, 2017)

 

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