Odium's trap for Dalinar - "have you ever heard the tragedy of Cú Chulainn the geased?"

[Ixthos]

I can't chat for long, I've got a lot to do and also have to continue discussing another theory later (I will be getting back to you @mathiau, I haven't forgotten  I'm still working on the specific 2^4 = 16 Dawnshard-Shard relations theory, and about Conquest vs Dominion for Order), but I have to write this now or I will have a lot of trouble focusing on what I have to do. I will be brief, and I apologise if anyone else has covered this idea already.

 

The nature of the true plan of Odium, though not its details, has, to me, been obvious for a long time, tied up to the weakness and fundamental flaw of Honour - making promises you can't keep, BECAUSE TO KEEP THEM WOULD BE TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE.

I am not Irish - though apparently I do have Irish blood and I would like to learn the language, so please excuse any errors here in content or spelling, but I believe I have the core idea correctly. There is a famous Irish legend about Cú Chulainn and the idea of being under geas - basically a compulsion, being bound to do or not do a certain thing, in Cú Chulainn's case, one of those restrictions was not to eat dog meat. So far so good. However, he was also bound never to reject hospitality - that is, never to refuse to eat what his host presented him. I think you can see where this is going.

 

So, the trick to defeating Dalinar, as Odium himself noted: 

Quote

There was so much to do. He sorted through Odium’s previous plans and saw all their flaws. How had he let himself be maneuvered into this particular deal with Dalinar? How had he let himself rely so much upon a contest of champions? Didn’t he know? The way to win was to make sure that, no matter the outcome, you were satisfied. Odium should never have entered a deal he could not absolutely control.

 

Chapter 114: Broken Gods

 

Therefore Odium will need to bind Dalinar such that, do defeat his champion, Dalinar would have to break another vow he had made, perhaps one already tied into the nature of the contest - that to win the contest, Dalinar would have to take actions that would make him loose the contest - Honour demands that Dalinar do A, but to do A would require Dalinar to violate B, and upholding B is something else which Honour also demands, and to do B would require Dalinar violate A. And the irony of THAT is, unless Stormlight 5 ends on a massive down note - not just bittersweet, but actually "we lost, and now the whole planet is Odium's" note - is that I think Odium's own deal with himself - when he was Taravangian, about Kharbranth - will be what defeats him, his own technique of using an oath to bind someone and defeat them being applied to himself.

 

For those interested, here are the wikipedia entries for Cú Chulainn and for Geasa:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cú_Chulainn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geas

Edited May 7, 2021 by Ixthos
Corrected pluralisation of Geas

[AquaRegia]

Opinion is strongly divided on the agreement made between Taravangian and Odium:

I'm with you, @Ixthos - I believe the terms of that deal were upheld and that it is still in effect, and that it WILL have an important influence on what TOdium will be able and/or unable to do in the future.

[ElMonoEstupendo]

Absolutely. I think this is one of the few confirmed ways we've seen so far of "safely" killing a Vessel, and why Odium seems to have gone after dishardic systems first - the agreements between shards are mortally binding, and a third party affords some leverage.

It probably also explains why Tanavast slowly went mad and died shortly after the Recreance - something about those events caused him to break his word, and for him in particular that must have caused incredible tension between him and his Shard's Intent on top of the baseline "hole in [his] soul".

[RedBlue]

7 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Therefore Odium will need to bind Dalinar such that, do defeat his champion, Dalinar would have to break another vow he had made, perhaps one already tied into the nature of the contest - that to win the contest, Dalinar would have to take actions that would make him loose the contest - Honour demands that Dalinar do A, but to do A would require Dalinar to violate B, and upholding B is something else which Honour also demands, and to do B would require Dalinar violate A.

I like this theory. It makes a lot of sense, given the rules of oaths as we already understand them. 

The one note I have is that, if this is what Taravangian is going for with his loophole, then the outcome of the contest of champions becomes moot. It wouldn’t matter if Dalinar won or lost - Taravangian only needs to manipulate him into a position where he is bound by contradictory oaths, or absolutely cannot keep his agreement for Honor reasons. 

If that’s the case, then the entire contest could be a big distraction from the real danger. Don’t look at the promises being made - look at the fight! 

 

6 hours ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

I think this is one of the few confirmed ways we've seen so far of "safely" killing a Vessel, and why Odium seems to have gone after dishardic systems first - the agreements between shards are mortally binding, and a third party affords some leverage.

Agreed. This may well be the method Rayse used to go after the Vessels he managed to kill.

Which raises the question of what exactly happens after the Vessels are trapped by contradictory oaths. Do they all ‘go mad’ and die slowly like Tanavast? Is that what Ambition’s injury was?

And if that’s how Dalinar et al end up dealing with Odium ... will Odium have a similar period of decline? That would be very bad news for anyone in the vicinity.

[Ixthos]

Glad there is support for this theory  now, the question is, has Odium already manoeuvred Dalinar into making those two promises, or only one, or does he still have to make Dalinar abide by both, assuming the contest isn't one of them? 

 

On 5/7/2021 at 6:22 PM, AquaRegia said:

Opinion is strongly divided on the agreement made between Taravangian and Odium:

I'm with you, @Ixthos - I believe the terms of that deal were upheld and that it is still in effect, and that it WILL have an important influence on what TOdium will be able and/or unable to do in the future.

I think there are some interesting views in that discussion, but I think its important to remember that certain contracts and covenants don't absolve one of the parties of responsibility just because the second doesn't follow through - there can be consequences, but that doesn't mean the contract is automatically overthrown. You an I on this are in complete agreement. I think Taravangian kept his end of the bargain perfectly, not breaking his word, so even if that didn't apply the contract would still be in effect, but even if his actions did break the contract I don't recall Odium being allowed to deny fulfilling his role in it. I do wonder though if Taravangian even CAN break the contract now? As in, if someone told him that he was setting himself up for destruction because of it, could he, as both parties in the agreement, release himself?

 

On 5/7/2021 at 6:56 PM, ElMonoEstupendo said:

Absolutely. I think this is one of the few confirmed ways we've seen so far of "safely" killing a Vessel, and why Odium seems to have gone after dishardic systems first - the agreements between shards are mortally binding, and a third party affords some leverage.

It probably also explains why Tanavast slowly went mad and died shortly after the Recreance - something about those events caused him to break his word, and for him in particular that must have caused incredible tension between him and his Shard's Intent on top of the baseline "hole in [his] soul".

This is only partially related to the theory, but have you seen my post on theorising about why Odium is so effective against multi-shard planets? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that 

 

 

On 5/8/2021 at 2:09 AM, RedBlue said:

I like this theory. It makes a lot of sense, given the rules of oaths as we already understand them. 

The one note I have is that, if this is what Taravangian is going for with his loophole, then the outcome of the contest of champions becomes moot. It wouldn’t matter if Dalinar won or lost - Taravangian only needs to manipulate him into a position where he is bound by contradictory oaths, or absolutely cannot keep his agreement for Honor reasons. 

If that’s the case, then the entire contest could be a big distraction from the real danger. Don’t look at the promises being made - look at the fight! 

Fully agreed!