How Odium might try to get Dalinar to break the contract

[+mdross81]

I know there's a contingent on the forums who think that Todium will choose a child-champion and that this will cause Dalinar to either break the contract or lose the contest of champions by refusing to fight/kill the child.

But let's set that aside for a minute, and consider what I think is a simpler and more likely way that Todium might manipulate events so that Dalinar breaks the contract.

First, here are the three key contractual terms with which the parties must comply:

1. On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour, each side must send a willing champion
2. The champions must be allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side's forces
3. The champions participate in a contest to the death

These are the terms that, if violated, would constitute a breach of contract.

Now, if you're Todium looking for a way to maneuver Dalinar into breaking the contract, which of these would you try to exploit? Number 1 doesn't seem likely. It's pretty hard to see how Todium could arrange things so that Dalinar either doesn't show up to be his own champion or fails to send an appointed champion.

To maneuver Dalinar into violating number 3, Todium would have to find a way to ensure that either Dalinar's champion doesn't participate in the contest at all, or that his champion quits the contest before one champion dies. Again, I struggle to see how Todium can arrange things in a way where he can be sure that Dalinar's champion will violate this provision. (Please let's not go down the child champion rabbit hole; there are enough other threads where folks have been through those arguments ad nauseam)

That leaves number 2, which I think has the most wiggle room and the most factors that Todium might be able to control. The reason for this is that the terms forbid either side's forces from harming either champion. Dalinar would violate this provision if someone from his forces harmed Todium's champ. But it would also be a violation if someone from his forces harmed Dalinar (or his champion, if he changes his mind about being his own champ). So Todium can plot on two fronts - manipulating someone into harming Dalinar (or his champ) and also manipulating someone into harming his own champ. If he's successful with either, that's a violation of the contract.

For Dalinar, I imagine there are plenty of folks out there with a lingering grievance against him from his Blackthorn days. Or, perhaps there's a religious zealot who hates Dalinar for his blasphemy against the Vorin church. I'm sure there are other options as well, but suffice it to say that I imagine there are a significant number of folks out there who might, given the opportunity, take a shot at Dalinar.

For Todium's champ, who's the most hated person you can think of on his side, someone that a number of characters would probably like to harm? Storming Moash. Todium can make him his champion, then try to manipulate Gavinor, or someone from Bridge Four into taking him out. Again, there are probably lots of other folks out there that might want a piece of Moash. And if the scheme doesn't work, with Moash now blind, there's still the possibility that Dalinar's champion may think that it's not a fair or honorable fight.

Alternatively, depending on how his story plays out in Book 5, Szeth might be another option for a Todium champ that lots of folks would probably like vengeance against. Actually, Szeth is also a prime candidate for someone that Todium might try to manipulate into harming one of the champs. Manipulating Szeth is, after all, T's go-to move.

There are two main problems I can think of with this theory.

One is that I may just be reading the language of the agreement too technically. Dalinar says "otherwise unharmed by either side's forces" but it could be that what he meant - and what Odium understood him to mean - was "unharmed by the other side's forces." But the terms of the contest of champions seem like the type of thing where Brandon would be very intentional in his word choice. And reading the terms the way I suggest fits with Todium's realization of the subtle opportunities available to him.

Another problem with this theory is that I'm not entirely certain who is considered to be part of Dalinar's forces. Further, would a person be considered to have defected if they moved against Dalinar's champ or harmed Todium's champion against Dalinar's will? I don't think these issues kill the theory; they're more things that would have to be addressed and sorted out.

In conclusion, this seems to me like a much more straightforward route to arranging things so that Dalinar's forces cause him to break the contract. What do y'all think?

[Leuthie]

Would definitely be narratively difficult to have a contract issue determine the results of the Contest. Fighting over whether or not Dalinar or Todium was actually responsible for harming one or both Champions on the way to the top of Urithiru would most likely turn into an anti-climactic mess.

Not that it isn't possible, and maybe that's the challenge Brandon wants to take on with this Contest.

[+mdross81]

27 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Would definitely be narratively difficult to have a contract issue determine the results of the Contest. Fighting over whether or not Dalinar or Todium was actually responsible for harming one or both Champions on the way to the top of Urithiru would most likely turn into an anti-climactic mess.

Not that it isn't possible, and maybe that's the challenge Brandon wants to take on with this Contest.

You’re right it would be a huge letdown if contract law decided the outcome. I would very much hope that such a ploy by Todium would not succeed. Just seems like the kind of thing he would try. 

[ElMonoEstupendo]

The big issue I have with this is that it has to be Dalinar or Odium that break their word. The whole point of it would be to put one in the other's power, by "creating a hole in their soul" according to Rayse. For a gambit like this to work, it would have to be Dalinar himself Intentionally breaking the agreement.

We saw in Oathbringer that trickery and deceit don't work with these kind of divine agreements. There has to be Intent. A solider from one side acting out might be an excuse to hold off or modify the agreement, but not to beat the other side.

Plus, Taravangian wants the agreement to go ahead, one way or another. He wants peace on Roshar. I think he doesn't care which side wins - he'll be scheming to make sue he's happy whatever the outcome, not rolling dice in the hearts of men like Rayse.

[Aspiring Writer]

12 hours ago, mdross81 said:

One is that I may just be reading the language of the agreement too technically.

Do remember that Odiums says that it's the intent of the agreement that matters, not the wording. I'm pretty sure BS added that so reader and theorists wouldn't be looking for loopholes in the wording. He hasn't had much luck, it appears.

[Bejarden]

That was before Taravangian ascended

Tododium doesn’t seem to interested in the spirit of the contract when he excises some of Hoids Breath

[NotEnoughTime]

I believe that the whole Odiums champion is a red herring from Brandon Sanderson. I think i all comes down to part in the contract that says

"otherwise unharmed by either side's forces"

There are plenty of other factions that don't side with Odium or Dalinar, that would be willing to harm Dalinar's "champion".

Take for example Ishar. He already believes that Dalinar is Odium's ally/champion. All Odium has to do is trick Ishar into attacking Dalinar and boom, instant advantage.

This is of course just a simple theory, but I like it

[Olmund]

I believe Taravodium will put pressure on Dalinar by making it difficult to meet all of the terms of the contract. Things will happen in Shinovar which make it extremely difficult for Dalinar to return to Urithiru (i.e., someone close to him like Navani/Jasnah/Adolin/Renarin will be captured, so to leave Shinovar will mean abandoning someone he loves). Taravodium will riot Dalinar's forces (and possibly send them fake orders) to attack Odium's champion (he won't do the same for his own forces, because he doesn't want the Odium shard to be weakened by breaking the contract). Finally, he will send a champion that he foresees Dalinar won't be willing to kill -- whether it's Gavilar, Gavinor, or someone else.

Why all the terms of the contract? Mainly for narrative tension -- Dalinar needs the champion duel to happen, so threatening the duel is an excellent way for the author to build suspense.

[Thanatos]

Can Odium leave Roshar without destroying the system? Given its now invested there. Settled.

Or just Braise?

The new vessel is a king of a nation, whats stopping Taravangian appointing a crap champion to lose so his people dont suffer?

How long does it take for the vessel to be corrupted by the Shard?

Sazed is a bad example given his circumstance, as it does not seem his corrupted by the Shard but torn between two intents. 

The story could go anywhere.

Still think this is all apart of Cultivation's plan. 

[DiePie]

This definitely seems like something Taravodium would do, but I don't think it would work. Rayse agreed to the spirit of the contract, and so that's what Taravodium is bound to. Besides I don't think that Dalinar could unknowingly breach the contract if one of his soldiers were to assault Odium's champion, both of them had already agreed that they did not have total control over their followers.

Anyways, I am biased here since it's always seemed to me that both Rayse and Dalinar intended on choosing themselves as champions, and that the final fight would resemble [spoilers for WoT]

Spoiler

the beginning of the Final battle between Rand and the dark one, where they both create visions of what could be to try and convince the other.

under this assumption Odium wouldn't really be able to get any Radiant to hurt his champion, because you can count the number of people on one hand who could hurt Odium who currently inhabit Roshar.

I'm currently favorable towards Taravodium trying to get what he wants by just smiting Dalinar ASAP, pulling him into a vision, and basically saying "hi, hello, I'm a shard now. You work for me, we can discuss things like paternity leave and insurance later. Right now, I'm going to send you back there, and we're going to have this big impressive battle that you're going to 'win'".

[Lunu’anaki]

On 5/3/2021 at 6:26 PM, Leuthie said:

Would definitely be narratively difficult to have a contract issue determine the results of the Contest. Fighting over whether or not Dalinar or Todium was actually responsible for harming one or both Champions on the way to the top of Urithiru would most likely turn into an anti-climactic mess.

Not that it isn't possible, and maybe that's the challenge Brandon wants to take on with this Contest.

I do think if book 5 ended or climaxed with that being the case, then yes it would be a huge narrative hurdle... If it happens in chapter one and is simply the inciting incident... It could work narratively... idk.

On 5/4/2021 at 4:21 AM, ElMonoEstupendo said:

We saw in Oathbringer that trickery and deceit don't work with these kind of divine agreements. There has to be Intent. 

I think trickery and deceit could still be used to cause Dalinar to do something with Intent...

[dbulick]

A more maybe macabre outcome would be that Dalinar/Dalinar's Champion defeat Odium's, but don't kill them.  Instead keep them in an incapacitated state for eternity binding Odium to Roshar?

[+mdross81]

Since my post is seeing some recent action just thought I’d chime in.

On 3/2/2022 at 0:06 PM, Olmund said:

I believe Taravodium will put pressure on Dalinar by making it difficult to meet all of the terms of the contract.

….

Why all the terms of the contract? Mainly for narrative tension -- Dalinar needs the champion duel to happen, so threatening the duel is an excellent way for the author to build suspense.

This seems in exactly line with what I think Todium might do. Put pressure on Dalinar that could cause him to doubt whether or not he’s living up to various oaths.

On 3/2/2022 at 3:02 PM, Thanatos said:

Still think this is all apart of Cultivation's plan. 

Definitely possible and would, in my opinion, set things up nicely for the back five. You have to figure the other Shard in residence will figure prominently in the back half given the first arc has been so Honor-focused.

On 3/6/2022 at 10:27 AM, DiePie said:

I'm currently favorable towards Taravodium trying to get what he wants by just smiting Dalinar ASAP, pulling him into a vision, and basically saying "hi, hello, I'm a shard now. You work for me, we can discuss things like paternity leave and insurance later. Right now, I'm going to send you back there, and we're going to have this big impressive battle that you're going to 'win'".

This is so audacious and hilarious. I love it.

4 hours ago, Lunu’anaki said:

I do think if book 5 ended or climaxed with that being the case, then yes it would be a huge narrative hurdle... If it happens in chapter one and is simply the inciting incident... It could work narratively... idk.

On 5/4/2021 at 4:21 AM, ElMonoEstupendo said:

We saw in Oathbringer that trickery and deceit don't work with these kind of divine agreements. There has to be Intent. 

I think trickery and deceit could still be used to cause Dalinar to do something with Intent...

Agree that - IF this were to happen - the only way to make it work would be to frontload it. And yes, 100%, Dalinar could end up doing something by Intent based on trickery/deceit.

3 hours ago, dbulick said:

A more maybe macabre outcome would be that Dalinar/Dalinar's Champion defeat Odium's, but don't kill them.  Instead keep them in an incapacitated state for eternity binding Odium to Roshar?

This is where I think we get into a potential breach by Dalinar or his champ. It’s explicitly a “contest to the death.”  Were Dalinar’s side to trap/incapacitate the opposing champ and be in a position where it is possible for them to kill the opponent, but he/they refuse to do so, I could see that being a breach. Which would actually potentially free Odium by putting Dalinar in his power.

[Morningtide]

I like this theory. I agree with the people who said that having the contest being over on a technicality would be anticlimactic, but Brandon Sanderson would find a way to make it work. There could still be a climactic battle and contest of champions if the contract was voided.