DougTheRug

Naming of shard combos

28 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Ok, so we have some ideas about what the name of the shard Odium + Honor could potentially be if Brandon goes down that path. What do we think the names of the other combinations? Meaning what would the following combinations be?
Honor + Cultivation = ?? (Sorry but I just don't think "Tower" is a good name here)
Cultivation + Odium = Mercurial/Volatility (Basically just ever-changing passions)
Honor + Cultivation + Odium = Zealotry/Intensity (I was trying to think of someone who has lots of changing emotions that is dedicated to one cause and came up with religious zealots.)

Grammar edits in this color

Edited by DougTheRug
grammar
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my opinion:

Oduim and Honour should be Conflict or Zealot.

Honour and Cultivation - integrity

Cultivation and Odium - malevolence

Honour/Cultivation/Odium - Synergy

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I doubt Honor + Odium would become "War", since shards never seem to have the same name as their light. I think they may become something like Harmony since they are very different (almost opposite) shards. I think perhaps, the name/form a fused shard has depends partly on the vessel, since I believe there is a a WoB on how Harmony could just as easily have become "Discord", so Honor + Odium could become a Harmony synonym perhaps. Besides that though, Hatred/Passion but with Honor/Integrity makes me think of some sort of idealized war, the sorta glorious think people who haven't been to war think of. Only problem is this seems rather similar to the Shard "Valor".

Honor and Cultivation, I think back to what Navani says when she and the Sibling made Tower Light for the first time, she called it "The Song of Science itself". The issue is, that may have been said because she found out how to do this with science, and not that the Intent of the Rhythm was science. Plus there's already a Ingenuity Shard. Honor/Law with Cultivation/Life makes me think of like Civilization, though that's a weird name for a shard.

Cultivation and Odium, some sort of hateful life? I think I'd call the light "Plaugelight", but idk about the shard itself. Maybe if you think of it like Cultivated (planned/thought out) hatred, you could call the shard something like Revenge or Grudge?

Honor + Odium = "Glory" or "Harmony" with Warlight

Honor + Cultivation = "Civilization" with Tower/Science Light

Cultivation + Odium = "Revenge" with Plaugelight?

All three, I have no idea, maybe that's a better fit for Civilization?

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Sp00ks said:

Well, I doubt Honor + Odium would become "War", since shards never seem to have the same name as their light.

But the shard they come from is the same as their tone.

Honor's tone is Stormlight

Odium's Tone is Voidlight

Warlight was named after it's rhythm

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Frustration said:

But the shard they come from is the same as their tone.

Honor's tone is Stormlight

Odium's Tone is Voidlight

Warlight was named after it's rhythm

Are you sure? The way Navani talks about Honor's Rhythm, it doesnt seem very "Stormy", I'm pretty sure Stormlight is just called Stormlight since in the modern day, people get it from storms. No reason Honor's song couldnt have a name like "The Rhythm of Oaths"

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Sp00ks said:

Are you sure? The way Navani talks about Honor's Rhythm, it doesnt seem very "Stormy", I'm pretty sure Stormlight is just called Stormlight since in the modern day, people get it from storms. No reason Honor's song couldnt have a name like "The Rhythm of Oaths"

Stormlight is named after where it comes from

Warlight is named after it's rhythm

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Frustration said:

Stormlight is named after where it comes from

Warlight is named after it's rhythm

I dont really understand the point you're trying to make. Warlight is called Warlight because thats what the song reminded Raboniel of. The name given to the Rythm doesn't suddenly mean that's the name of the hypothetical shard that could make it

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Sp00ks said:

Are you sure? The way Navani talks about Honor's Rhythm, it doesnt seem very "Stormy", I'm pretty sure Stormlight is just called Stormlight since in the modern day, people get it from storms. No reason Honor's song couldnt have a name like "The Rhythm of Oaths"

 

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Stormlight is named after where it comes from

Warlight is named after it's rhythm

Yeah, when Raboniel refers to Stormlight's rhythm, she refers to it as Honor's Tone, and Voidlight has Odium's Tone. Warlight was named after the Rhythm of War, which is its tone, which would imply that was what they would become of they combined. However, We know that the combination of Ruin and Preservation could have been Discord rather than Harmony, so there is a chance that if the two combined they would be something else than War, like Conflict.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Sp00ks said:

I dont really understand the point you're trying to make. Warlight is called Warlight because thats what the song reminded Raboniel of. The name given to the Rythm doesn't suddenly mean that's the name of the hypothetical shard that could make it

Raboniel didn't know the Rhythm until she touched Warlight, the name was intrensic to it

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Sp00ks said:

I dont really understand the point you're trying to make. Warlight is called Warlight because thats what the song reminded Raboniel of. The name given to the Rythm doesn't suddenly mean that's the name of the hypothetical shard that could make it

Raboniel wasn't reminded of War, the tone meant War. That was the Rhythm's meaning and what the Shard would likely be once made.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Raboniel wasn't reminded of War, the tone meant War. That was the Rhythm's meaning and what the Shard would likely be once made.

I agree. Perhaps it's something a bit more all-encompassing, like Conflict? Since Shards tend to be named after qualities of a god, I doubt it's actually going to be called "War," since that's not a term that could be used to describe somebody.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Sp00ks said:

I think they may become something like Harmony since they are very different (almost opposite) shards.

I disagree on a couple fronts, tbh.

  1. I do not agree they are "almost opposite". They do oppose in certain cases, for sure, but they are nowhere near as opposed as, say, Ruin and Preservation. Channeled anger and passion toward a cause would imo fit, for one, as would the similar vibe of a sort of Vengeance or divine Wrath Shard.
  2. I do not think every combination of opposed Shards would give Harmony. It's not just that they are balanced, but specifically that when balanced a certain way (which seemingly is a way but not the only one), they give the concept of a harmonious cycle. Old things break, new things last. (I don't really get where the "together Ruin and Preservation can create" thing comes from, but Brandon sees it and it's important to the plot, which influences how a combination of Ruin and Preservation will turn out.) Honor and Odium is not likely to give anything remotely like that, though I could see it if you add Cultivation into the mix.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I disagree on a couple fronts, tbh.

  1. I do not agree they are "almost opposite". They do oppose in certain cases, for sure, but they are nowhere near as opposed as, say, Ruin and Preservation. Channeled anger and passion toward a cause would imo fit, for one, as would the similar vibe of a sort of Vengeance or divine Wrath Shard.
  2. I do not think every combination of opposed Shards would give Harmony. It's not just that they are balanced, but specifically that when balanced a certain way (which seemingly is a way but not the only one), they give the concept of a harmonious cycle. Old things break, new things last. (I don't really get where the "together Ruin and Preservation can create" thing comes from, but Brandon sees it and it's important to the plot, which influences how a combination of Ruin and Preservation will turn out.) Honor and Odium is not likely to give anything remotely like that, though I could see it if you add Cultivation into the mix.

These are some good points, though I'd still argue that the two are more opposed than two shards would normally be. The way Raboniel talked about it, the Rhythms were pretty hard to imagine fitting together. Though you're right, Ruin and Preservation are certainly more diametrically opposed. 

Though, Preservation would probably have problems with a lot of shards, there's a WoB about how he wouldn't have gotten along at all with Cultivation, and I'd imagine Ingenuity would too

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Sp00ks said:

though I'd still argue that the two are more opposed than two shards would normally be

I would agree there, yeah.

6 minutes ago, Sp00ks said:

Preservation would probably have problems with a lot of shards

Definitely lmao. I do think Ruin and Cultivation are the two it'd be most opposed to, because those are directly about modifying existing things while to me the name Invention implies more a focus on new things, but this is basically "white is more opposed to black than super dark grey", lol. Invention and Odium are probably very high on the "Preservation hates you" list, as is Whimsy. Though there's some like Honor, Dominion, and Autonomy that sound like they might combine decently with it ("decent" as in "compatible", not as in "nice to exist near" necessarily, lol).

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also agree that Cultivation + Odium would be Malice or Malevolence - growing, nurturing hatred. Freaking terrifying, I hope this isn't what Taravangian does! 

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Quick Ben I totally see how Odium + Honor = Zealotry as zealots are characterized by their passion/hatred plus their strictness to their code. I don't see the Synergy one though. Could you provide your thought process there?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, DougTheRug said:

@Quick Ben I totally see how Odium + Honor = Zealotry as zealots are characterized by their passion/hatred plus their strictness to their code. I don't see the Synergy one though. Could you provide your thought process there?

My thought process on that was a bit abstract.

When take 2 shards and combine them, we or at least I, tend to add them or substract them, hence why ruin + preservation becomes harmony (subtracted) or odium + honour becomes conflict/zealot, (addition) its like 1 - 1 = 0, or 1 + 1 = 2. Its linear.

When comes to Odium + Honour + Cultivation if you follow along that line, you would find yourself at treachery, malice or abhorrence maybe.

But the sum of the individual parts doesn't necessarily equal the combination of shards intent.

So 1 + 1 + 1 ≤/≥ 3

Which is pretty much the definition of synergy. This could apply to any groupings of shards however. I guess its more how i think the interaction one work rather then a name for a shard itself really.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The whole Harmony/Discord thing indicates that the actual result of a merging of Shards depends heavily on the Vessel's impression of each part and their relationship to each other. One is the result of them acting together, the other the result of opposition - both are possible, and the result isn't necessarily greater than the sum of the parts.

You'd also expect that as Shards combine they would get closer and closer to divinity, but it's difficult to name them without narrowing their Intent, rather than widening it.

So War as the combination of Honor and Odium makes sense in the cooperative mode - conflict and hatred bound by rules, directed rather than wild, channelled. What does the opposed mode look like? Hatred placing binds on people, hateful rules; it could be Tyranny?

With Honor and Cultivation it feels harder to guess because "Cultivation" already implies some kind of curated, rule-bound change in the direction of growth. Rule-bound growth, or rules that grow... Culture? Direction? Evolution? Science works nicely, too.

Cultivation & Odium: Hateful growth, or progressing hates. Nemesis? It's also awkward because there's already a shard for Change in the negative direction: Ruin. Perhaps passionate change... Revolution?

Honor/Cultivation/Odium: I think this is where Roshar is heading. Difficult to say without knowing the other combos, but if War is H/O then we can thinking about progression through directed conflict, or conflict through progression. Makes me think of exercise, training, or games. Competition? Escalation?

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

I agree. Perhaps it's something a bit more all-encompassing, like Conflict? Since Shards tend to be named after qualities of a god, I doubt it's actually going to be called "War," since that's not a term that could be used to describe somebody.

"War" is a narrow name for a combo of 2 shards. Odium kind of covers Conflict though. Sja-Anat thinks to herself that the power Odium loves conflict and being argued with, while Rayse did not. War is a conflict with a wider scope and more "rules" that may or may not actually be followed. I don't like it for a the Shard name though.

I like Justice. You follow the rules, you're fine, you break the rules you get God's righteous anger. Basically Honor, but he'll wreck you if you break your word, the rules, the law etc. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Child of Hodor said:

"War" is a narrow name for a combo of 2 shards. Odium kind of covers Conflict though. Sja-Anat thinks to herself that the power Odium loves conflict and being argued with, while Rayse did not. War is a conflict with a wider scope and more "rules" that may or may not actually be followed. I don't like it for a the Shard name though.

I like Justice. You follow the rules, you're fine, you break the rules you get God's righteous anger. Basically Honor, but he'll wreck you if you break your word, the rules, the law etc. 

"Justice" is interesting, but I don't think it covers the entirety of Odium's intent. Odium is all about deep, passionate hatred, not just for people who have broken their word.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

12 minutes ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

"Justice" is interesting, but I don't think it covers the entirety of Odium's intent. Odium is all about deep, passionate hatred, not just for people who have broken their word.

Yeah, Justice / Vengeance. I see it as that hatred tethered to a code of law, morals, ethics. It will only unleash that hatred under certain circumstances. 

It's hard to see how each Shards full domain of meaning can be preserved and represented in a new name when they combine. Honor has to do with natural laws of physics as well as societal laws and oaths, but War and Justice don't touch on that at all. Frankly, the shard name Honor doesn't hint at it either. 

 

 

Edited by Child of Hodor
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Child of Hodor said:

Yeah, Justice / Vengeance. I see it as that hatred tethered to a code of law, morals, ethics. It will only unleash that hatred under certain circumstances. 

It's hard to see how each Shards full domain of meaning can be preserved and represented in a new name when they combine. Honor has to do with natural laws of physics and such, but War and Justice don't touch on that at all. Frankly, the shard name Honor doesn't hint at it either. 

Odium dictionary definition is hatred towards someone as a result of their action. It does involve a prior act. The Shard encompasses more than the dictionary definition, of course. 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/odium

Definition of odium

1: the state or fact of being subjected to hatred and contempt as a result of a despicable act or blameworthy circumstance

 

 

The dictionary definition of odium is not necessarily the Intent of Odium. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/3/2021 at 0:26 PM, Sp00ks said:

Honor and Cultivation, I think back to what Navani says when she and the Sibling made Tower Light for the first time, she called it "The Song of Science itself". The issue is, that may have been said because she found out how to do this with science, and not that the Intent of the Rhythm was science. Plus there's already a Ingenuity Shard. 

The name could be Logic, perhaps? I don't think it's close enough to Ingenuity to be a problem, as one could argue that logic is following tried and true paths or using what you already know to solve a problem, while ingenuity is coming up with something new and creative.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Liahona said:

The name could be Logic, perhaps? I don't think it's close enough to Ingenuity to be a problem, as one could argue that logic is following tried and true paths or using what you already know to solve a problem, while ingenuity is coming up with something new and creative.

Logic could work too, but I just don't like the name, maybe Logos.  Honor is about natural laws, codes of law, bonds, and agreements. When added to another Shard it brings a structure and discipline to it. Honor + Invention could be Science or the Scientific method which is a terrible name, but kind of fits.

 

15 hours ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

The dictionary definition of odium is not necessarily the Intent of Odium. 

Yeah I know. Like I said above you can't really encapsulate all that a Shard represents in one word, much less two combined. Honor adds structure and rules to whatever it combines with.

Odium didn't want to pick up another Shard because that would change what it's nature and it would be less focused on going around destroying things. Odium will inevitably be mellowed out or diluted by adding back the other attributes that gave it context.  That all consuming anger becomes directed toward something more specific when it merges with another Shard. 

Quote

Nepene

I have a question, if you are willing. Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him- Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people.

Brandon Sanderson

Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view.

That said, Ruin would have been one of the 'safer' of the sixteen for Rayse to take, if he'd been about that. Odium is by its nature selfish, however, and the combination of it and Rayse makes for an entity that fears an additional power would destroy it and make it into something else.

General Reddit 2013 (March 14, 2013)

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

The whole Harmony/Discord thing indicates that the actual result of a merging of Shards depends heavily on the Vessel's impression of each part and their relationship to each other. One is the result of them acting together, the other the result of opposition - both are possible, and the result isn't necessarily greater than the sum of the parts.

You'd also expect that as Shards combine they would get closer and closer to divinity, but it's difficult to name them without narrowing their Intent, rather than widening it.

So War as the combination of Honor and Odium makes sense in the cooperative mode - conflict and hatred bound by rules, directed rather than wild, channelled. What does the opposed mode look like? Hatred placing binds on people, hateful rules; it could be Tyranny?

With Honor and Cultivation it feels harder to guess because "Cultivation" already implies some kind of curated, rule-bound change in the direction of growth. Rule-bound growth, or rules that grow... Culture? Direction? Evolution? Science works nicely, too.

Cultivation & Odium: Hateful growth, or progressing hates. Nemesis? It's also awkward because there's already a shard for Change in the negative direction: Ruin. Perhaps passionate change... Revolution?

Honor/Cultivation/Odium: I think this is where Roshar is heading. Difficult to say without knowing the other combos, but if War is H/O then we can thinking about progression through directed conflict, or conflict through progression. Makes me think of exercise, training, or games. Competition? Escalation?

I love Tyranny being the combo of Honor and Odium especially if it was done by the wrong person. For C+H, I was thinking Civilization, Refinement or Perfection being the positive version of growth within rules. C+O could be something like Colonization, Revolution or Debate. 

Quote
  On 5/3/2021 at 5:33 PM, Szeth_Pancakes said:

I agree. Perhaps it's something a bit more all-encompassing, like Conflict? Since Shards tend to be named after qualities of a god, I doubt it's actually going to be called "War," since that's not a term that could be used to describe somebody.

"War" is a narrow name for a combo of 2 shards. Odium kind of covers Conflict though. Sja-Anat thinks to herself that the power Odium loves conflict and being argued with, while Rayse did not. War is a conflict with a wider scope and more "rules" that may or may not actually be followed. I don't like it for a the Shard name though.

I like Justice. You follow the rules, you're fine, you break the rules you get God's righteous anger. Basically Honor, but he'll wreck you if you break your word, the rules, the law etc. 

The reason I like War so much is that it requires passion bound to rules. Not like the Geneva Convention rules but military discipline. Dalinar at some points in his life fits this perfectly. I don't have the passage on me but when he talks about how he gets the reward of the Thrill after bunches of logistical planning? That's what I'm thinking of when I was saying War = Honor + Odium.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.