Who is Paalm Talking To?

[vonnegut]

Sorry if this is something that has already been discussed a lot, I did a search but didn't turn up anything.

In Shadows of Self, chapter 16.  Wax is stalking Paalm down the street while they are having an earring-aided mental conversation.  At one point, Paalm says "You know he's just another pawn."  And Wax says "I don't know that."  Paalm responds "I wasn't talking to you that time, Waxillium."

It's been bothering me since I first read it.  If she's not talking to Wax, who is she talking to?

It has to be someone with a hemalurgic spike, correct?

Could it be Kelsier?  

It just makes me think of all of the little hints and weirdness that didn't make sense (like Vin suddenly deciding not to go talk to Hoid-the-informant), that were explained in Secret History as Kelsier moving behind the scenes.  

If it is Kelsier-- what is the context of that line?  "You know he's just another pawn."  Could we assume that she's referring to Wax himself?  Discussing Wax with Kelsier?  In which case, Kelsier would be on the scene and interested in Wax (or, at least, interested in Sazed's interest in Wax).

Thoughts?

 

[Frustration]

I think she's talking to Trell there

[Kingsdaughter613]

25 minutes ago, vonnegut said:

Sorry if this is something that has already been discussed a lot, I did a search but didn't turn up anything.

In Shadows of Self, chapter 16.  Wax is stalking Paalm down the street while they are having an earring-aided mental conversation.  At one point, Paalm says "You know he's just another pawn."  And Wax says "I don't know that."  Paalm responds "I wasn't talking to you that time, Waxillium."

It's been bothering me since I first read it.  If she's not talking to Wax, who is she talking to?

It has to be someone with a hemalurgic spike, correct?

Could it be Kelsier?  

It just makes me think of all of the little hints and weirdness that didn't make sense (like Vin suddenly deciding not to go talk to Hoid-the-informant), that were explained in Secret History as Kelsier moving behind the scenes.  

If it is Kelsier-- what is the context of that line?  "You know he's just another pawn."  Could we assume that she's referring to Wax himself?  Discussing Wax with Kelsier?  In which case, Kelsier would be on the scene and interested in Wax (or, at least, interested in Sazed's interest in Wax).

Thoughts?

 

I’m with you that it’s Kell. I think he set up events with Tan, then gave PaAlm her spike.

Worth noting that she does recreate the mood of the night the Final Empire was overthrown, and that’s definitely the kind of thing Kelsier would play with. Although WHY he would do it is the question...

My theory (that I’ve had for awhile) is that Kell is pushing the Basin to the edge of open war, then tugging them back. In doing so he creates a Cold War-like scenario which encourages innovation. And he wanted this innovation to occur BEFORE North and South met.

I also think he’s been manipulating everyone: Saze, Autonomy, the Set, the Trellists, the Survivorists, the Pathians, the Southerners, the >redacted<, and everyone else to achieve his goals. And those eggs he’s juggling are starting to get out of his control. And will come crashing down in a giant mess sometime around or in Era 3.

28 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I think she's talking to Trell there

This does not necessarily mean she wasn’t talking to Kelsier...

The odds of him being Trell or being directly involved with whatever Trell is went up tremendously the minute Brandon revealed that we’d know just who Trell is by the end of TLM. The SoS, BoM, TLM trilogy have had an overlying arc leading to the Survivor’s return and an underlying thread of the dangers of his philosophies. So knowing the mystery of ‘who is Trell’ is going to be resolved in TLM means the answer is almost certain to dovetail with Kelsier’s return to the main stage.

Not to mention that Kelsier has had dealings with Autonomy, which is VERY suspicious considering the only other place we’ve seen Trell mentioned. And he has definitely been keeping important information from Saze. (And possibly murdering Sazed’s agents...)

[Aspiring Writer]

4 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Not to mention that Kelsier has had dealings with Autonomy, which is VERY suspicious considering the only other place we’ve seen Trell mentioned. And he has definitely been keeping important information from Saze. (And possibly murdering Sazed’s agents...)

WoB please?

Also, Trell being Kell this is highly unlikely seeing as Kell made the bands and then sent his agents to get them without providing the information they would need and then seems to be actively threatening Scadrial with how his Kandra act. And again, tell has been confirmed to have been one of the Shards we know, or at least an avatar of one, and Kell is neither a shard nor an avatar. That WoB saying we'd know who they were is probably foreshadowing that it will be someone not from Scadrial that we know.

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

I think she's talking to Trell there

yeah, what I believe is happening is that tell or someone representing Trell is trying to make her kill Wax and she is pushing back. Or perhaps Sazed? I believe Sazed said he could still speak to her with the one spike, so maybe Sazed is trying to tell her something and she's saying accusingly, you know he's just another pawn in your schemes'. But that is far less likely.

[Kingsdaughter613]

3 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

WoB please?

Also, Trell being Kell this is highly unlikely seeing as Kell made the bands and then sent his agents to get them without providing the information they would need and then seems to be actively threatening Scadrial with how his Kandra act. And again, tell has been confirmed to have been one of the Shards we know, or at least an avatar of one, and Kell is neither a shard nor an avatar. That WoB saying we'd know who they were is probably foreshadowing that it will be someone not from Scadrial that we know.

yeah, what I believe is happening is that tell or someone representing Trell is trying to make her kill Wax and she is pushing back. Or perhaps Sazed? I believe Sazed said he could still speak to her with the one spike, so maybe Sazed is trying to tell her something and she's saying accusingly, you know he's just another pawn in your schemes'. But that is far less likely.

I can’t give you the word of Brandon here because it’s major RoW spoilers. I’ll pm it in a bit.

There are actually two WoB: one says Trellium is from a Shard we know and that it isn’t Ruin, Preservation or Harmony. The other says the entity calling itself Trell is a Shard. Which also eliminates any avatars, because those aren’t Shards. However that question was worded really oddly and got a simple yes, so its  accuracy is questionable.

Either way, I still think the Kelsier meta-narrative and the Trell meta-narrative will converge and be resolved together. I’ll add that I don’t think he’s Trell, but I do think he’s involved.

The Set is 100% NOT Kelsier’s. They’re very clearly not a crew he’d build.

Kelsier talking to Lessie is fairly likely though.

[Quantus]

4 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The Set is 100% NOT Kelsier’s. They’re very clearly not a crew he’d build.

Id say that is not guarentee'd if/where he is not directly overseeing things:

 

Quote

[snip for relevance]

And it's the same thing with Kelsier, in an immediate organization of Kelsier's you're gonna find a well bonded crew of people hand picked who are going to work together as a team, and you aren't going to have to worry about too much about backstabbing - less than average for the type of organization that they are. But if his structure is outside of his direct manipulation, the type of people who would be attracted to the organization he makes...

Chaos

...are not gonna be nice.

Brandon Sanderson

...you're gonna have some problems.

 

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Quantus

[Kingsdaughter613]

4 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Id say that is not guarentee'd if/where he is not directly overseeing things:

 

 

One of Kelsier’s very strict rules is that members of his crew don’t harm other members of his crew. (Which is what pinged me to certain things way back when.) This rule is strong enough that it stands on foreign planets. On Scadrial, where Kelsier actually is, that rule is definitely enforced.

Not to mention that if you read the whole thing Brandon notes that members of Kelsier’s crews aren’t flunkies. Kell runs a very loose organization. The Set is too hierarchical for him. It’s too rigid.

Crews run by Kelsier will be loosely structured pods with semi-autonomous agents, all of whom are fiercely loyal to him, the cause, and, by-and-large, each other. You will not have Telsin shooting a fellow crew member for a con. You will not have Suit’s casual disdain for the people working with him.

You will have a loose master-apprentice type hierarchy. You will not have a strict hierarchy with everyone’s tasks and roles defined. You will have a specific goal that everyone is working toward, but that goal will not be control.

Control is not a very Kelsier thing. Manipulation is. Challenging people, pushing them, is. But he doesn’t want to control Scadrial. He can do that any time he wants.

[Quantus]

Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said:

One of Kelsier’s very strict rules is that members of his crew don’t harm other members of his crew. (Which is what pinged me to certain things way back when.) This rule is strong enough that it stands on foreign planets. On Scadrial, where Kelsier actually is, that rule is definitely enforced.

Not to mention that if you read the whole thing Brandon notes that members of Kelsier’s crews aren’t flunkies. Kell runs a very loose organization. The Set is too hierarchical for him. It’s too rigid.

Crews run by Kelsier will be loosely structured pods with semi-autonomous agents, all of whom are fiercely loyal to him, the cause, and, by-and-large, each other. You will not have Telsin shooting a fellow crew member for a con. You will not have Suit’s casual disdain for the people working with him.

You will have a loose master-apprentice type hierarchy. You will not have a strict hierarchy with everyone’s tasks and roles defined. You will have a specific goal that everyone is working toward, but that goal will not be control.

Control is not a very Kelsier thing. Manipulation is. Challenging people, pushing them, is. But he doesn’t want to control Scadrial. He can do that any time he wants.

Right, and the whole point of that part of the WOB is that the organization is loose and semi-autonomous enough that it can attract some far less savory and disciplined when they are outside the radius of his immediate manipulation.  He would not be the first or last leader to loose his grip on the office culture when his organization grows and spreads, and as his attention is diverted elsewhere.

 

But Im getting nervous at the direction of this conversation, given we're in the Mistborn section. 

 @vonnegut, where are you in the spoiler-spectrum of the rest of the Cosmere?  Would you be open to moving this conversation to a broader, more spoilery section?  I dont want to derail your thread, and certainly dont want to spoil anything for you.  

[vonnegut]

I've read Rhythm of War and everything... but... I didn't know if this should go there (because it's really mostly about Mistborn and not Stormlight)... I would be open to moving this conversation broader...

[Kingsdaughter613]

4 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Right, and the whole point of that part of the WOB is that the organization is loose and semi-autonomous enough that it can attract some far less savory and disciplined when they are outside the radius of his immediate manipulation.  He would not be the first or last leader to loose his grip on the office culture when his organization grows and spreads, and as his attention is diverted elsewhere.

 

But Im getting nervous at the direction of this conversation, given we're in the Mistborn section. 

 @vonnegut, where are you in the spoiler-spectrum of the rest of the Cosmere?  Would you be open to moving this conversation to a broader, more spoilery section?  I dont want to derail your thread, and certainly dont want to spoil anything for you.  

This is true. But I think he maintains a fairly direct control of things on Scadrial itself.

[Quantus]

1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

This is true. But I think he maintains a fairly direct control of things on Scadrial itself.

Entirely possible, though sometimes the place that you think is locked down the most is the one you loose sight of.  I cant wait to get a look at his side of the curtain, and what's he's really up to... 

[Kingsdaughter613]

5 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Entirely possible, though sometimes the place that you think is locked down the most is the one you loose sight of.  I cant wait to get a look at his side of the curtain, and what's he's really up to... 

TLM canNOT come fast enough.