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The Night of Sorrows


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33 minutes ago, Green chicken said:

Did you even read my post? I'm not talking about the Stormfather breaking the bond, I'm talking about the fact that if Dalinar breaks his ideals, he kills the Stromfather. 

1. Spren don't die when Radiants break their Oaths, they become deadyes. 

2. Ba-Ado-Mishram's imprisonment is what caused this to happen.  So yes, at this current time, Dalinar would severely hurt Stormfather if he broke his Oath.  However, Ba-Ado-Mishram will certainly be released in Stormlight 5, which would prevent Stormfather from becoming a deadeyes from broken oaths.

3. Once again, Hemalurgy could be used to maintain a Nahel bond, regardless of Oaths upheld or Sprens' will.

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32 minutes ago, Green chicken said:

First of all that is baseless speculation. Second of all, Dalinar is two whole oaths from the 5th ideal. Finally, the ideals are artificial, they were put in place by Ishar. This means that Ishar would never give such a dangerous order the ability to get away with practically anything. 

Baseless? The Highspren literally told Seth it worked that way.

Why (and how) would Ishar stop Dalinar from swearing to become an embodiment of unity?

Just now, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

1. Spren don't die when Radiants break their Oaths, they become deadyes. 

Come on, as if you hadn't understood what they meant

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2. Ba-Ado-Mishram's imprisonment is what caused this to happen.  So yes, at this current time, Dalinar would severely hurt Stormfather if he broke his Oath.  However, Ba-Ado-Mishram will certainly be released in Stormlight 5, which would prevent Stormfather from becoming a deadeyes from broken oaths.

That is very possible, yes

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3. Once again, Hemalurgy could be used to maintain a Nahel bond, regardless of Oaths upheld or Sprens' will.

I have already given my objection about that, do I need to to give it again?

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3 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Come on, as if you hadn't understood what they meant

The distinction between a deadeyes and a dead Spren is important enough to point out.

 

4 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I have already given my objection about that, do I need to to give it again?

Wasn't even talking to you.

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6 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Baseless? The Highspren literally told Seth it worked that way.

Why (and how) would Ishar stop Dalinar from swearing to become an embodiment of unity?

Come on, as if you hadn't understood what they meant

That is very possible, yes

I have already given my objection about that, do I need to to give it again?

Different orders have different oaths.  

11 minutes ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

1. Spren don't die when Radiants break their Oaths, they become deadyes. 

That's what death to a spren means.

2. Ba-Ado-Mishram's imprisonment is what caused this to happen.  So yes, at this current time, Dalinar would severely hurt Stormfather if he broke his Oath.  However, Ba-Ado-Mishram will certainly be released in Stormlight 5, which would prevent Stormfather from becoming a deadeyes from broken oaths. 

3. Once again, Hemalurgy could be used to maintain a Nahel bond, regardless of Oaths upheld or Sprens' will.

Hemalurgy can only prevent the spren from breaking the bond, if the radiant breaks their oaths, then they are the ones breaking the bond. This is why breaking oaths broke pre recreance bonds. 

 

Edited by Green chicken
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6 minutes ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

The distinction between a deadeyes and a dead Spren is important enough to point out.

Not when everyone understand what we're talking about

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Wasn't even talking to you.

I fail to see why that allows you to ignore my arguments

4 minutes ago, Green chicken said:

Different orders have different oaths. 

I fail to see your point

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That's what death to a spren means.

Not anymore

Edited by mathiau
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15 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Not when everyone understand what we're talking about

I fail to see why that allows you to ignore my arguments

I fail to see your point

There is no evidence to suggest that the 5th ideal for skybreakers, has the same effects as the 5th bondsmith ideal.

Edited by Green chicken
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Just now, Green chicken said:

Why does it matter? Everyone knows what I mean, when I say that breaking oaths kills spren.

As of the events of RoW, that is not the case.  Killing spren requires anti-Investiture, not broken Oaths.  Don't fault me for making that distinction, as it's a pretty important one.

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5 minutes ago, Green chicken said:

There is no evidence to suggest that the 5th ideal for skybrekers, has the same effects as the 5th bondsmith ideal.

There's the fact that Lightweavers' second Oath can be something relatively transient, like Shallan's "I'm affraid"

6 minutes ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

What are you even talking about lmao?  All you did was paste a WoB that supported my argument...

It's just that you missed it then

1 hour ago, mathiau said:
1 hour ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

I feel like you're not listening lol.  Brandon literally said that Hemalurgy could be used to force a Nahel bond if "something else" was included.

Brandon didn't say whether you still had to follow the Oaths

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4 minutes ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

I think the WoB has been posted in this thread multiple times, so I'll let you figure it out.

here is the wob:

Aradanftw

If you were to use Hemalurgy on a Surgebinder, would it steal the Surge or the actual spren bond?

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to steal the spren bond, but you've got to remember the spren has power over that bond. So what you're doing is (1) incredibly evil, even more evil, but (2) you may not end up with what you want, because that spren has free will in most cases. You may go through all this trouble and then they may break the bond, and you would be left without it. So you would need something else to force them to be unable to break the bond, which would be even more evil, but it is possible in Hemalurgy.

Read the last sentence, the wob states that is possible to prevent the spren from breaking the bond. The wob doesn't state that the radiant doesn't have to follow oaths. 

1 minute ago, mathiau said:

There's the fact that Lightweavers' second Oath can be something relatively transient, like Shallan's "I'm affraid"

The skybreaker 4th Ideal is about fulfilling quest, the windrunner 4th ideal is completely different, therefore the different orders have relatively difrent ideals.

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Just now, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

and you inserted yourself into the discussion

Isn't that the concept of a forum? If it's not it's high time someone said it.

7 minutes ago, Green chicken said:

The skybreaker 4th Ideal is about fulfilling quest, the windrunner 4th ideal is completely different, therefore the different orders have relatively difrent ideals.

How is this relevant to me saying it's possible that more than one Order get the "the 5th Oath superseded Oaths 2 to 4" treatment?

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8 hours ago, mathiau said:

Not if Dalinar's 3rd oath get superseded by his 5th and his 5th is compatible with him being a fused, if only in a twisted way

This is a good point.

Seems likely enough that, in some cases a radiants 5th ideal will supercede the other oaths. This is definetly the case with Szeth, so Dalinars could follow suit, if he makes it to the 5th that is. 

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@Ba-Ado-Fisherman regarding the Sixth of the Dusk sequel, yes I have read it but I don't believe that that necessarily proves the point.

Spoiler

It has voidlight off of Roshar. To me, there is a difference between some investiture leaving the planet and the spren of the highstorm leaving the planet. Granted it would help the TCS leave the planet per WOB but it is a little weird to think about the spren of the highstorm leaving Roshar. Wouldn't that radically change the ecology of Roshar? 

Basically, my argument is this. One, it's hard to get a Cognitive Shadow that is as invested in a planet as Kelsier's is to Scadrial or Tanavast's to Roshar but it is almost certainly possible given the abovementioned voidlight on FotS. Two, the spren of the highstorm is heavily invested in the highstorm. It seems weird/impossible to believe that you could divorce the spren of the highstorm or the highstorm and its spren from Roshar.

 

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16 hours ago, mathiau said:

How is this relevant to me saying it's possible that more than one Order get the "the 5th Oath superseded Oaths 2 to 4" treatment?

A lot of things are possible, for example it's possible that Taravangians loophole is to bond with Dalinar, and release himself from Roshar. The problem with baseless speculation is that it can get ridiculous very quickly. I already provided an example on what baseless speculation could lead to. When ever you are having a logical discussion, speculation must be supported by a reasonable amount of evidence. If we knew the 5th ideal for multiple orders, and all of them negated the 4 previous ideals, then it would be safe to say that the 5th ideal negates the the first 4. One data point is nowhere near enough to to extrapolate from. 

That's not the only reason why the 5th Bondsmith ideal probably doesn't negate the 4 previous ideals. The 5 ideals have to make thematic sense. For example, the reason that the 5th ideal negates the previous 4 ideals for a Skybreaker, is that the theme of the Skybreaker ideals is following codes to insure that you do the right thing. Once a Skybreaker reaches the 5th ideal, they can change their code, because they understand codes well enough. Thematically it would make zero sense for the 5th Edgedancer ideal, to allow the Edgedancer to forget those who have been forgotten. Same thing with the Bondsmiths, how would it make thematic sense for the 5th Bondsmith ideal to allow them to divide people? It's literally the antithesis of the entire order.          

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18 hours ago, Green chicken said:

Finally, the ideals are artificial, they were put in place by Ishar.

I strongly disagree with this assertion.

Quote

Blightsong

Were the ideals of the Knights Radiant consciously chosen, or did they happen naturally?

Brandon Sanderson

*apprehension*. This is one of those vague ones in that yes and no. They are a natural outgrowth of the spren, but the spren are a natural outgrowth of human's perception of natural forces, but the spren are sentient, so I would say it's a little more by instinct than not. For example two Knights Radiant in the same Order might speak the words differently, but the concept is the same. You will see this happen in a future book, where a Windrunner will speak the oaths. It's a slightly different take on the same concept. Some are moreso, like Shallan's oaths are very individualized truths, so.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)
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18 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I strongly disagree with this assertion.

Taln believes the radiants to be "ishar's knights". Not only that, surgebinders predate the orders. The ideals were created by Ishar, however they were a natural outgrowth of the spren.  

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1 minute ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Do you have a source stating this?

"But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws." - Words of Radiance chapter 42 epigraphs.

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