The Night of Sorrows

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

I think most people will agree that the Night of Sorrows is not a synonym for the Everstorm or the True Desolation.  Here's my new take on what the Night of Sorrows could be.

 

In Stormlight 5, Dalinar loses the contest of champions.  How exactly?  Not important.  However, after losing the contest, Dalinar is now sworn to serve Odium.  Taravangian is a smart dude, and he's almost certainly going to find a way off of Roshar.  Well actually, if Dalinar serves Odium, Odium can simply make Dalinar release him, so that's that.

 

SO.  Odium now owns Dalinar, and Odium decides he wants to go somewhere else in the Cosmere and do some exploring.  He firgures why not take my new Bondsmith servant with me?  Dalinar leaves Roshar too, and along with Dalinar, the Stormfather.  

 

So what happens if the Stormfather is no longer on Roshar?  I think that results in the loss of Stormlight.  Maybe highstorms still happen, but they no longer replenish Stormlight.  This is the Night of Sorrows.  Roshar now loses its primary resource for Investiture, and is forced into finding it someway else.  Not only would this have catastrophic consequences for Roshar, but it could lead very nicely into the Kelsier/Ghostbloods plot.  Kelsier wants to figure out how to transfer Investiture across worlds, and Roshar would all of sudden be VERY interested in that too.  Era 2 of Stormlight could become a much more Cosmere-wide series, with multiple characters from multiple worlds interacting with each other on a regular basis.  Finding and saving Dalinar could be of utmost importance, among tons of other stuff Brandon has in store for us.  

[Bejarden]

Odium cannot make Dalinar release him. It has to be done willingly and with Intent

 

[mathiau]

41 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Odium cannot make Dalinar release him. It has to be done willingly and with Intent

I don't know, Ruin was able to have Marsh want to do the thing he made him do.

And anyway BaF's idea for the Night of Sorrow doesn't require Odium to be free, just Dalinar to be away

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

2 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Odium cannot make Dalinar release him. It has to be done willingly and with Intent

 

Yeah, that part of theory is pretty weak.  Regardless, I don't see any scenario where Odium isn't released from Roshar by the end of book 5.

[Infinity Sliver]

10 hours ago, mathiau said:

I don't know, Ruin was able to have Marsh want to do the thing he made him do.

That's different I'm pretty sure,Ruin's was a prison,Odium's an oath or contract basically. 

[mathiau]

1 hour ago, Infinitysliver said:

That's different I'm pretty sure,Ruin's was a prison,Odium's an oath or contract basically. 

I don't see why it has anything to do with what I've just said

[Infinity Sliver]

3 hours ago, mathiau said:

I don't see why it has anything to do with what I've just said

Oh,because you said Ruin was able to make Marsh do stuff. He was controlling Marsh to try to get out of his prison,but even he controls Dalinar,it wouldnt be willing. Basically what I was trying to say

[WandererNearby]

Another weak part of theory is that the Stormfather would leave Roshar. It's my understanding that Stormfather = Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow + a super spren. I don't see how either of the SF's parts can leave as we know that Kelsier can't leave Scadrial and other spren can't leave the Rosharan system. 

[+Oltux72]

On 3.5.2021 at 3:02 AM, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

In Stormlight 5, Dalinar loses the contest of champions.  How exactly?  Not important.  However, after losing the contest, Dalinar is now sworn to serve Odium.  Taravangian is a smart dude, and he's almost certainly going to find a way off of Roshar.  Well actually, if Dalinar serves Odium, Odium can simply make Dalinar release him, so that's that.

 

SO.  Odium now owns Dalinar, and Odium decides he wants to go somewhere else in the Cosmere and do some exploring.  He firgures why not take my new Bondsmith servant with me?  Dalinar leaves Roshar too, and along with Dalinar, the Stormfather.  

Death breaks the Nahel bond. See the shock that saved Sylphrena. Odium would have Dalinar, but not the Stormfather. Hence Dalinar would no longer be a Bondsmith.

 

[mathiau]

1 hour ago, DougTheRug said:

Another weak part of theory is that the Stormfather would leave Roshar. It's my understanding that Stormfather = Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow + a super spren. I don't see how either of the SF's parts can leave as we know that Kelsier can't leave Scadrial and other spren can't leave the Rosharan system. 

It's not that he can't leave, it's that he doesn't know how too

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

3 hours ago, DougTheRug said:

Another weak part of theory is that the Stormfather would leave Roshar. It's my understanding that Stormfather = Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow + a super spren. I don't see how either of the SF's parts can leave as we know that Kelsier can't leave Scadrial and other spren can't leave the Rosharan system. 

Have you read the chapter from the sequel to Sixth of the Dusk?  

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Death breaks the Nahel bond. See the shock that saved Sylphrena. Odium would have Dalinar, but not the Stormfather. Hence Dalinar would no longer be a Bondsmith.

 

I highly doubt that Rayse or Taravangian would care about Dalinar if they couldn't exploit his incredible abilities as a Surgebinder.

[Quick Ben]

6 minutes ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

I highly doubt that Rayse or Taravangian would care about Dalinar if they couldn't exploit his incredible abilities as a Surgebinder.

Consodering Rayse was grooming Dalinar long before radiants started appearing in Roshar again that isn't true. Rayse would of took him with or without the stormfather.

Taravangian on the other hand ? Wouldn't of even made the deal with Dalinar so don't think he cares either way

[Green chicken]

6 minutes ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

I highly doubt that Rayse or Taravangian would care about Dalinar if they couldn't exploit his incredible abilities as a Surgebinder.

Spren can break nahel bonds, the stormfather will almost certianly break the bond with Dalinar if he becomes a fused. Here's a wob that supports this:

  

Aradanftw

If you were to use Hemalurgy on a Surgebinder, would it steal the Surge or the actual spren bond?

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to steal the spren bond, but you've got to remember the spren has power over that bond. So what you're doing is (1) incredibly evil, even more evil, but (2) you may not end up with what you want, because that spren has free will in most cases. You may go through all this trouble and then they may break the bond, and you would be left without it. So you would need something else to force them to be unable to break the bond, which would be even more evil, but it is possible in Hemalurgy.

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

2 hours ago, Green chicken said:

Spren can break nahel bonds, the stormfather will almost certianly break the bond with Dalinar if he becomes a fused. Here's a wob that supports this:

  

Aradanftw

If you were to use Hemalurgy on a Surgebinder, would it steal the Surge or the actual spren bond?

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to steal the spren bond, but you've got to remember the spren has power over that bond. So what you're doing is (1) incredibly evil, even more evil, but (2) you may not end up with what you want, because that spren has free will in most cases. You may go through all this trouble and then they may break the bond, and you would be left without it. So you would need something else to force them to be unable to break the bond, which would be even more evil, but it is possible in Hemalurgy.

"In most cases"....

Why would Ishar even attempt to steal Dalinar's Bond with the Stormfather if the Stormfather could just sever the Bond immediately?  I thinks it's obvious that Spren can be forced into a Bond in some way shape or form.

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

2 hours ago, Quick Ben said:

Consodering Rayse was grooming Dalinar long before radiants started appearing in Roshar again that isn't true. Rayse would of took him with or without the stormfather.

Taravangian on the other hand ? Wouldn't of even made the deal with Dalinar so don't think he cares either way

I'm gonna have to just disagree on that.

[Green chicken]

1 hour ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

I'm gonna have to just disagree on that.

If Dalinar doesn't follow his ideals, he loses his bond. His third ideal would prevent him from being a good fused, since he would constantly have to "take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man." 

 

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

2 minutes ago, Green chicken said:

If Dalinar doesn't follow his ideals, he loses his bond. His third ideal would prevent him from being a good fused, since he would constantly have to "take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man." 

 

Ok, but you don't know that... Brandon said that the Spren has free will "in most cases".  If it were impossible to maintain a Bond through sheer force, then why would he say that?  And what use would Dalinar be to Odium without his abilities?  At that point, he'd just be another man.

[mathiau]

45 minutes ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

Ok, but you don't know that... Brandon said that the Spren has free will "in most cases".  If it were impossible to maintain a Bond through sheer force, then why would he say that?  And what use would Dalinar be to Odium without his abilities?  At that point, he'd just be another man.

2 hours ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to steal the spren bond, but you've got to remember the spren has power over that bond. So what you're doing is (1) incredibly evil, even more evil, but (2) you may not end up with what you want, because that spren has free will in most cases. You may go through all this trouble and then they may break the bond, and you would be left without it. So you would need something else to force them to be unable to break the bond, which would be even more evil, but it is possible in Hemalurgy.

 

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

5 minutes ago, mathiau said:

It's going to steal the spren bond, but you've got to remember the spren has power over that bond. So what you're doing is (1) incredibly evil, even more evil, but (2) you may not end up with what you want, because that spren has free will in most cases. You may go through all this trouble and then they may break the bond, and you would be left without it. So you would need something else to force them to be unable to break the bond, which would be even more evil, but it is possible in Hemalurgy.

I could definitely see Odium using Hemalurgy on Dalinar.

[Green chicken]

53 minutes ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

Ok, but you don't know that... Brandon said that the Spren has free will "in most cases".  If it were impossible to maintain a Bond through sheer force, then why would he say that?  And what use would Dalinar be to Odium without his abilities?  At that point, he'd just be another man.

If Dalinar breaks his oaths, he kills the Stormfather. 

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

Just now, Green chicken said:

If Dalinar breaks his oaths, he kills the Stormfather. 

I feel like you're not listening lol.  Brandon literally said that Hemalurgy could be used to force a Nahel bond if "something else" was included.

[Green chicken]

Just now, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

I feel like you're not listening lol.  Brandon literally said that Hemalurgy could be used to force a Nahel bond if "something else" was included.

Did you even read my post? I'm not talking about the Stormfather breaking the bond, I'm talking about the fact that if Dalinar breaks his ideals, he kills the Stromfather. 

[mathiau]

4 minutes ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

I could definitely see Odium using Hemalurgy on Dalinar.

Me too

Just now, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

I feel like you're not listening lol.  Brandon literally said that Hemalurgy could be used to force a Nahel bond if "something else" was included.

Brandon didn't say whether you still had to follow the Oaths

3 minutes ago, Green chicken said:

If Dalinar breaks his oaths, he kills the Stormfather. 

Not if Dalinar's 3rd oath get superseded by his 5th and his 5th is compatible with him being a fused, if only in a twisted way

[Green chicken]

Just now, mathiau said:

Me too

Brandon didn't say whether you still had to follow the Oaths

Not if Dalinar's 3rd oath get superseded by his 5th and his 5th is compatible with him being a fused, if only in a twisted way

First of all that is baseless speculation. Second of all, Dalinar is two whole oaths from the 5th ideal. Finally, the ideals are artificial, they were put in place by Ishar. This means that Ishar would never give such a dangerous order the ability to get away with practically anything.