SwordNimiForPresident

Another Dawnshard to Shard of Adonalsium thread

6 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

I was fascinated by the idea that the Shards are grouped based on the Dawnshard that they relate to. To that end, I decided to group the Shards (and take a stab at identifying our two missing Shards and three unidentified Dawnshards).

Here goes nothin.

Change - This one is easy because it’s already in the text. It’s also easy because there are four obvious Shards to go with it.

- Preservation: The lack of change.

- Cultivation: Ordered change.

- Whimsy: Chaotic change.

- Ruin: Absolute change.

Feel - I chose this because there are four Shards related to emotion. One of the Shards I assume exists because it is the complement of the idea represented by one of the existing Shards.

- Devotion: Love.

- Odium: Hate.

- Valor: Bravery or Courage seem to fit this best.

- Cowardice: One of our missing Shards presumably. Fear and Terror complete the idea of Valor in the same way that Preservation and Ruin are a complete idea. They aren’t opposites, but rather they’re complements to each other. This also fills the role of everyone’s favorite “Survival” Shard, as it would almost certainly be hiding from the others.

Think - This could also be something like Reason, Learn or Know.

- Invention: This one feels obvious for obvious reasons.

- Endowment: The complement of Invention. Where Invention is starting with the pieces and working towards the whole. Endowment is starting with the whole and giving away the pieces.

- Honor: The fundamental rules that govern all interactions. Navani showed us how Honor isn’t just about oaths, but also natural law.

- Ambition: Honor’s complement. Where Honor is about oaths and bounds, Ambition is about striving to find new bounds.

Rule - This could also be Master or Organize.

- Dominion: The domain of any governing entity. I think of it as the Shard of Kings (or Emperors or Gods or God Emperors.. you get the point).

- Autonomy: Dominion’s complement. It represents freedom. I think of it as the Shard of rebels, heroes (the Kelsier kind, not the Elend kind) and terrorists (the Kelsier kind or the Kelsier kind).

- Mercy: This Shard is here because in order to take mercy on someone, you have have power over them.

- Cruelty: As the natural complement to Mercy, I assume this is our second missing Shard. Similar to Mercy, you would have to have power over others in order to be cruel to them. I see Mercy/Cruelty as modifiers of Dominion/Autonomy. You can be a cruel king or a merciful one, just like you can be a cruel rebel or a merciful hero.

Well that’s my list. Let me know what you guys think.

Edited by SwordNimiForPresident
Grammar
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I like the direction you are going with this grouping but I don't think of "Cowardice" or "Cruelty" as divine attributes... which is what the Shards are.

Based on the way you are grouping the two alone... Cruelty's place could be taken by something like "Punishment" or "Justice" much better. As for Cowardice, maybe just "Fear"? I could see Fear being described by Brandon as a "Divine" attribute. Fear is both smart and useful. Cowardice, by definition, isn't.

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6 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said:

I like the direction you are going with this grouping but I don't think of "Cowardice" or "Cruelty" as divine attributes... which is what the Shards are.

Based on the way you are grouping the two alone... Cruelty's place could be taken by something like "Punishment" or "Justice" much better. As for Cowardice, maybe just "Fear"? I could see Fear being described by Brandon as a "Divine" attribute. Fear is both smart and useful. Cowardice, by definition, isn't.

I can see where you’re coming from, but I think Cruelty or Fear are no less divine than Hate or Destruction.

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1 minute ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I can see where you’re coming from, but I think Cruelty or Fear are no less divine than Hate or Destruction.

Right, but they are not simply "hate" or "destruction" are they? 

Odium is specifically defined as hatred toward someone because of their actions... It's wrath a la "The Wrath of God". It's not pure Hatred, but hatred with purpose, one that would be directed better if aligned with its 15 counterpart intents.

Ruin is typically paired with definitions that refer more closely to decay and collapse than outright destruction... (though it definitely has that as an aspect as well) I think there is more of a case for destruction to be a godly attribute though, because either way it serves the purpose of perpetuating change.

The problems I find with the Cruelty and Cowardice intents is that they are typically purposeless... cowardice is an overextension of fear... where fear can be good or bad, cowardice is always bad. The same goes, I think for Cruelty... Cruelty is just bad... something like Judgement or Punishment have less negative connotations.

 

Besides the two Shard speculations though... I really like the direction you take with your Dawnshard groupings. Putting Preservation in the "Change" category is a great idea imho.

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Posted (edited)

Firstly, I love your pseudo :)

7 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

- Preservation: The lack of change.

I'll have to say it everytime, won't I? The will of God for thing not to change cannot be a part of God's order to thing to change, that's simply absurd

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Feel - I chose this because there are four Shards related to emotion. One of the Shards I assume exists because it is the complement of the idea represented by one of the existing Shards.

Yes but why did you put Valour here instead of Mercy?

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- Cowardice: One of our missing Shards presumably. Fear and Terror complete the idea of Valor in the same way that Preservation and Ruin are a complete idea. They aren’t opposites, but rather they’re complements to each other. This also fills the role of everyone’s favorite “Survival” Shard, as it would almost certainly be hiding from the others.

I have a bad news about that

Quote

Seonid

I've heard about a Shard that just wants to survive, hiding off-- it doesn't have a planet it doesn't--

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Seonid

--out there in space, trying to survive. Does it have the intent of like Fear, or something like that?

Brandon Sanderson

The intent is related but only tangentially. Mostly it just knows what's going on and is smart enough to get out of there.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

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- Endowment: The complement of Invention. Where Invention is starting with the pieces and working towards the whole. Endowment is starting with the whole and giving away the pieces.

I think she's more about giving pieces to other so they figure out how to work toward the whole, not that it'd change her Dawnshard

Quote

- Honor: The fundamental rules that govern all interactions. Navani showed us how Honor isn’t just about oaths, but also natural law.

I don't remember her doing it, I remember her saying that Cultivation was nature and adding Honour to it made science which is the opposite of what you're saying

Even if he was I also don't see why that'd be enough to kick Honour out of the Rule Dawnshard

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- Ambition: Honor’s complement. Where Honor is about oaths and bounds, Ambition is about striving to find new bounds.

Ambition is about becoming greater, there's nothing about bounds with her. And while Honour is about bounds, there's nothing in him that forbid the zone you're bound in to be infinite (think to half-lines)

Quote

Rule - This could also be Master or Organize.

That'd be the Dawnshard from the Poem of Ista I assume? A bit weird to have none of Roshar's Shards in it

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- Dominion: The domain of any governing entity. I think of it as the Shard of Kings (or Emperors or Gods or God Emperors.. you get the point).

Of conquest actually, still a Rule Dawnshard of course.

Quote

- Autonomy: Dominion’s complement. It represents freedom. I think of it as the Shard of rebels, heroes (the Kelsier kind, not the Elend kind) and terrorists (the Kelsier kind or the Kelsier kind).

From what little we've seen of Autonomy's aspects, this doesn't to really be what she is

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- Mercy: This Shard is here because in order to take mercy on someone, you have have power over them.

Or just the power to help them

Quote

- Cruelty: As the natural complement to Mercy, I assume this is our second missing Shard. Similar to Mercy, you would have to have power over others in order to be cruel to them. I see Mercy/Cruelty as modifiers of Dominion/Autonomy. You can be a cruel king or a merciful one, just like you can be a cruel rebel or a merciful hero.

I don't see why that'd be a Rule Shard, yes a king can be Cruel but he can also be devoted, honourous or valorous

 

Have I missed something or do none of these Dawnshards work as Hoid's one?

6 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I can see where you’re coming from, but I think Cruelty or Fear are no less divine than Hate or Destruction.

Ruin is not destruction, he's Irreversibility

Edited by mathiau
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9 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

- Preservation: The lack of change.

The problem I always have with this is that the Dawnshards aren't just vague themes, they're Commands. If you Command something to Change, why would you end up with the total lack of Change?

10 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

- Autonomy: Dominion’s complement. It represents freedom. I think of it as the Shard of rebels, heroes (the Kelsier kind, not the Elend kind) and terrorists (the Kelsier kind or the Kelsier kind).

Similar issue to with Preservation, I just don't see why Commanding something to rule would end up with something opposing ruling.

9 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

- Ambition: Honor’s complement. Where Honor is about oaths and bounds, Ambition is about striving to find new bounds.

Interesting, never thought about this pairing before. I do have to say, after this

Quote

Storms, she thought. What have I done?

What you needed to, another part of her thought. You have adapted. You have Remade yourself.

It was then that she grasped, in the smallest way, the nature of the Command inside her. The will of a god to remake things, to demand they be better.

The power to change.

and this

Quote

The rhythm whispered that she could not do only easy things. Dark times were coming, the hollow skulls warned. And the vibrations of that place. Encouraging. Demanding. Be better. You must be better.

I have a hard time seeing Ambition as anything besides Change, because it feels like it just fits so perfectly. Adonalsium demands things Be Better, and Ambition runs with that hard.


8 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Destruction

I do have to note that "Destruction" isn't really a great name for Ruin. It describes the effects, but misses the cause.

Quote

Ruin shook its head. “I keep trying to explain. This process we are engaged in, the end of all things—it’s not a fight, but a simple culmination of inevitability. Can any man make a pocket watch that won’t eventually wind down? Can you imagine a lantern that won’t eventually burn out? All things end. Think of me as a caretaker—the one who watches the shop and makes certain that the lights are turned out, that everything is cleaned up, once closing time arrives.

Quote

This force was time infinite. It was the winds that weathered, the storms that broke, the timeless waves running slowly, slowly, slowly to a stop as the sun and the planet cooled to nothing.

It was the ultimate end and destiny of all things.

Quote

Questioner

I  never understood why Vin couldn't hold the Ruin Shard.

Brandon Sanderson

I could see a world where Vin maybe could have done it. But the trajectory she was on was opposed to it. Vin could have understood and become it. But what are the things that are keeping her? Vin, I don't think accepts, number one, that decay has to happen. She's experienced it a lot. But there's that piece inside her that doesn't want that to happen, doesn't want things to change, does not want people to leave her. I think that would be--if you read through, that's the soul, sort of, center event is, "Don't leave me, don't go away, don't change." And this is diametrically opposed to Ruin. People focus on the fact that she's good at killing and she is. But that heart, that soul...Ruin is more about things changing and decaying, than even about destroying.

Questioner

And I guess that's the reason why she can hold Preservation very easily?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)
Quote

Kelsier stood in awe of the way they combined. He’d always seen these powers as opposites, yet as they swirled around Sazed it seemed that they actually belonged to one another. “How?” he whispered. “How is he Connected to them both, so evenly? Why not just Preservation?”

“He has changed, this last year,” Elend said. “Ruin is more than death and destruction. It is peace with these things.”

Even moreso than it is about destruction, Ruin is about change and acceptance of the fact all things must break down and end. On its own, this manifests as destruction, but the Intent behind it is very different from that. It's an interpretation much more befitting of a Deity and of the powers of creation, as Brandon so commonly refers to Adonalsium and the Shards as.

8 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Hate

Odium is... complicated. It is Hate, yes, and this is its deepest attribute. But it's not just Hate.

Quote

You question? Do not question.

“I will not question.” However, she felt a surging to the power that moved within him. The mind did not like being questioned, but the power … It liked questions. It liked arguments. It was passion.

Quote

But the power was anything but frail. It was the power of life and death, of creation and destruction. The power of gods. In his specific case, the power of emotion, passion, and—most deeply—the power of raw, untamed fury. Of hatred unbound.

Quote

It killed the person holding that power, however, which left a hole. A need. A … vacuum, like a gemstone suddenly without Stormlight. It reached out, and Taravangian felt a distinct Connection to it.

Passion. Hatred. Today, Taravangian was only passion. Hatred, fear, anger, shame, awe. Bravery. The power loved these things, and it surged around him, enveloping him.

His soul vibrated.

Take me, the power pled, speaking not in words, but in emotion. You are perfect. I am yours.

And of course, one of my favorite scenes:

Quote

Then everything went white. Dalinar found himself standing on a speck of nothingness that was the entire world, looking up at an eternal, all-embracing flame. It stretched in every direction, starting as red, moving to orange, then changing to blazing white.

Then somehow, the flames seemed to burn into a deep blackness, violet and angry.

This was something so terrible that it consumed light itself. It was hot. A radiance indescribable, intense heat and black fire, colored violet at the outside.

Burning.

Overwhelming.

Power.

It was the scream of a thousand warriors on the battlefield.

It was the moment of most sensual touch and ecstasy.

It was the sorrow of loss, the joy of victory.

And it was hatred. Deep, pulsing hatred with a pressure to turn all things molten. It was the heat of a thousand suns, it was the bliss of every kiss, it was the lives of all men wrapped up in one, defined by everything they felt.

Even taking in the smallest fraction of it terrified Dalinar. It left him tiny and frail. He knew if he drank of that raw, concentrated, liquid black fire, he’d be nothing in a moment. The entire planet of Roshar would puff away, no more consequential than the curling smoke of a snuffed-out candle.

And look at the Unmade, Splinters of Odium. Nergaoul is the thrill of battle, the joy of it. Ashertmarn is an overwhelming hunger and desire, driving out thoughts of all else. Re-Shephir is driven by an insatiable curiosity, trying so desperately to understand those she kills. There are elements of hate, yes (mostly manifesting as an attraction to violence, rather than directly hate), but it covers so many other things too.

And even were this not the case, Hate would have a place. Divine hatred and wrath and fury feels very fitting, and there are times where hate is necessary to effect change.

Meanwhile, as @Lunu’anakisaid,

9 hours ago, Lunu’anaki said:

The problems I find with the Cruelty and Cowardice intents is that they are typically purposeless... cowardice is an overextension of fear... where fear can be good or bad, cowardice is always bad. The same goes, I think for Cruelty... Cruelty is just bad... something like Judgement or Punishment have less negative connotations.

I do think that, again as they mentioned, the ideas behind them can be reworked into things like Fear and Punishment, which, like Destruction vs what Ruin actually represents and Hate vs what Odium actually represents, have their place and are not inherently just the crappy versions of the concepts.

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