Mid Range 50: The Northern Wind II

[---]

I haven't fully read the rules, but my first thought I'm gonna put out there for now, is that I don't think the Doctors are that important, and I think giving up your voice and vote for a cycle to revive someone isn't a good trade. I also think that going to the hospital at all isn't a very good trade for talking to the dead people either.

[Mat]

I swear the rules are more complicated now then when I signed up for this game.

Uhhh |TJ|! I haven't voted on you with the |'s before. That is my reasoning, you're welcome. Obviously that will change once something happens.

In the mean time, allow me time to try to digest the rules again. I also need to mow the lawn today so I'll probably be absent for a few hours starting in a few minutes.

Should be fun though  

[DeTess]

Everyone should have received their role PM's by now. If you haven't, please ping me or Striker and we'll fix it as soon as possible

[Quintessential]

Oh shoot this game starts today??? smh maybe I shoulda read that bit before I agreed to be a full player. 

Anyway uh yeah lemme go reread the rules and in the meantime, Biplet, long time no see!  

[Ookla of Colors]

Tani

[Szeth_Pancakes]

Heeeey everyone!

Szeth

[Azmine_king]

Second game!

Illwei

[---]

21 minutes ago, Azmine_king said:

Second game!

Illwei

Whoa whoa whoa

Azmine

[Experience]

Sweet, only 10 replies so far.  

I guess I need to read the rules again, since it's been a whole week. 

No point in voting rn cause its all going to change so i just wont

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Just now, Experience said:

No point in voting rn cause its all going to change so i just wont

interesting position to take, because initial voting is half of what we use to make later votes on.

Also I notice everyone saying they're going to go read the rules and then not coming back. Anyone wanna talk about anything they found from that? :P.

Az did start off with a comfortable vote, and Tani and Szeth both voted...themselves, which doesn't quite accomplish much :P.

[Experience]

3 minutes ago, Illwei said:

interesting position to take, because initial voting is half of what we use to make later votes on.

If I voted it would have probably been detess or striker. They seem the most sus to me as of now.

[Ookla of Colors]

14 minutes ago, Illwei said:

interesting position to take, because initial voting is half of what we use to make later votes on.

[1] Also I notice everyone saying they're going to go read the rules and then not coming back. Anyone wanna talk about anything they found from that? :P.

Az did start off with a comfortable vote, and [2] Tani and Szeth both voted...themselves, which doesn't quite accomplish much :P.

[1] @Gears! You have been paged!

[2] You're welcome.

[|TJ|]

Yellow! First game in a while and first game with the shortened name! (what is it with forums and mandatory minimum 3 character display names? -.-)

1 hour ago, Illwei said:

I haven't fully read the rules, but my first thought I'm gonna put out there for now, is that I don't think the Doctors are that important, and I think giving up your voice and vote for a cycle to revive someone isn't a good trade. I also think that going to the hospital at all isn't a very good trade for talking to the dead people either.

I don't completely agree with this tbh. Cycles with one kill other than elimination are guaranteed to be the elim kill so we'll have an almost confirmed villager involved in the discussion. Also, it's the compromise of one cycle of silence of the doctor to get a player back to talk permanently (well, until they're killed again at least). Docs gotta be smart to choose which cycle/whom to revive and which they cycle they need to speak but writing off docs as unimportant is a no for me. Also, roles are revealed on hospitalization so players can be revived if their roles are deemed too important too. 

Now about visiting the hospital, I feel like dead people will have something important to say (like I would have revealed you were a Messenger had the hospital not been sabotaged in the last rerun of the game :P) but I think the best way to go about is everyone who enters the hospital to leave their thoughts until they're dismissed permanently, and for us to visit the hospital in mid-game to see what's posted so far and let the thread know. Visiting the hospital also has another use in that we can narrow the elim kill if one of them uses it to kill someone else permanently (@StrikerEZ @DeTess, rules show only Trapper kills and Doctor heals as actions to be taken in the hospital, but I assume elim kill is one too? Or is it not?)

[Mat]

Ah yes. This is an excellent reminder that I always read Exp as elim. Alright :P.

51 minutes ago, Azmine_king said:

Second game!

(On this site, you should add)

6 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Anyone wanna talk about anything they found from that? :P.

I still haven't read them again in depth; was mowing lawn. But off of quick skim:

I'm leaning on disagreeing that Doctors aren't that helpful. The elims can win by hospitalizing too so every villager brought back is prolonging a loss. I wouldn't do it every time, but I don't think it should be ignored.

I do think though that going to the Hospital if you're not a Doctor is useless though. Maybe there'll be something about it that isn't though that we'll see later, idk.

Questions: @DeTess @StrikerEZ

The airship parts- can we use actions to go to places? There's things about them like 'players can go here to do this' and I don't know what that means

If the Agent wins does the game end? If not, and say they have 5 parts improved, and the elims kill all the villagers, then it's just a fake out for the elims and the Agent is the only winner? And same for if all the elims die when there's 5 improved parts? Is the list of the number of improved parts public to the thread?

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Idk how the elim wincon being different upsets the distro. With 16 players and 1 agent, I'd probably say it's 11-4-1 though I wouldn't be entirely surprised if it were 10-5-1.

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

2 hours ago, Illwei said:

I haven't fully read the rules, but my first thought I'm gonna put out there for now, is that I don't think the Doctors are that important, and I think giving up your voice and vote for a cycle to revive someone isn't a good trade. I also think that going to the hospital at all isn't a very good trade for talking to the dead people either.

The doctor gives up their vote for in cycle, and in exchange returns someone else's vote and role for as long as they live. That seems like a good trade so long as the person dehospitalised is actually a villager and not an elim who was attacked by their own teammates. If the game gets close into hammer range the doctor can't afford to give up their vote, but we should be several cycles away from that. The luxury of having multiple people visit the hospital every cycle to cover for a doctor is less affordable. Visiting the hospital to talk to people looks like it would be the most valuable for biologists, who can learn one person who targeted the elim kill but may very well be hospitalised as they do so.

[---]

2 minutes ago, |TJ| said:

I don't completely agree with this tbh.

1 minute ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I'm leaning on disagreeing that Doctors aren't that helpful.

@Devotary of Spontaneity too:

My thought is that, yes, they revive someone who might almost be confirmed good, but that just puts a target on both them and you. You go to the hospital and you might get NKd, is why thought. that basically gives you a) a cycle with one less vote, with less discussion, b.) a 1-1 trade for a doctor-almost confirmed good, and then that person most likely dies again.

sure, this can be maybe avoided by multiple people going, but that, again, means that we lose votes and discussion.

 

[DeTess]

11 minutes ago, |TJ| said:

Now about visiting the hospital, I feel like dead people will have something important to say (like I would have revealed you were a Messenger had the hospital not been sabotaged in the last rerun of the game :P) but I think the best way to go about is everyone who enters the hospital to leave their thoughts until they're dismissed permanently, and for us to visit the hospital in mid-game to see what's posted so far and let the thread know. Visiting the hospital also has another use in that we can narrow the elim kill if one of them uses it to kill someone else permanently (@StrikerEZ @DeTess, rules show only Trapper kills and Doctor heals as actions to be taken in the hospital, but I assume elim kill is one too? Or is it not?)

yeah, the elim kill can take place in the hospital if they wish to.

9 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

 

Questions: @DeTess @StrikerEZ

The airship parts- can we use actions to go to places? There's things about them like 'players can go here to do this' and I don't know what that means

 the parts that you can go to do something requires you to take an action (and so you can't do that and use a role action). So if you want to go to the bunks for the PM, that's an action you can submit, same for going to tthe aviary to get a bird and the like.

9 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

If the Agent wins does the game end? If not, and say they have 5 parts improved, and the elims kill all the villagers, then it's just a fake out for the elims and the Agent is the only winner? And same for if all the elims die when there's 5 improved parts? Is the list of the number of improved parts public to the thread?

The agents win-con does not end the game, but if the game ends for some other reason (such as all villager or elims being taken out) while there are five improved parts, the agent wins instead of whoever would normally win. The number of parts improved is public, which parts are improved is not.

And because we had some discussion on whether to include them because of the number of players, I can confirm that the agent is in the game.

[The Unknown Ajah]

I will say that I will be going to the hospital to give the doctor cover if an important role dies. If we have the Agent, engineers just went from important to super important. 

38 minutes ago, Experience said:

No point in voting rn cause its all going to change so i just wont

I might be having the same problem as Mat, but this reads so sus to me. I don't vote because I rarely form suspicions, but if you're gonna vote in the first place, do a poke or pure gut vote to get the discussion going. This probably won't stick after I get a reply, but Experience .

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

19 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

 

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Idk how the elim wincon being different upsets the distro. With 16 players and 1 agent, I'd probably say it's 11-4-1 though I wouldn't be entirely surprised if it were 10-5-1.

The elim wincon is pretty much the same as the normal one since the elims outnumbering the village makes it extremely likely they'll be able to entirely wipe out the village, it just gives the agent a little bit longer to win. I wouldn't expect the number of elims to be higher to compensate; though four seems reasonable with people being able to come back from the dead.

14 minutes ago, Illwei said:

My thought is that, yes, they revive someone who might almost be confirmed good, but that just puts a target on both them and you. You go to the hospital and you might get NKd, is why thought. that basically gives you a) a cycle with one less vote, with less discussion, b.) a 1-1 trade for a doctor-almost confirmed good, and then that person most likely dies again.

sure, this can be maybe avoided by multiple people going, but that, again, means that we lose votes and discussion.

A village doctor getting attacked isn't great, but doesn't lose any more votes than any other villager being attacked. Assuming 11-4-1 for this and counting in terms of votes:

Scenario 1: Villager gets exed, villager gets attacked C1. 9-4-1 Doctor does nothing. C2, villager gets exed, villager gets attacked. 7-4-1. C3, same thing. 5-4-1
Scenario 2: Same as above, but Doctor visits hospital in time for C2 8-4-1. C2 - doctor revives player, gets attacked while villager exed. 8-4-1 C3, same as above, except revived player gets attacked 6-4-1

Not an incredible use of a village doctor, but it is an improvement unless the elims purposefully attacked one of their own C1 to provoke a doctor into saving them. Which is entirely possible, especially if the elims have a doctor they can use if the village doctor won't or doesn't exist.

[Ookla of Colors]

So... random question here...

If we had to choose between the elims winning or the agent winning, which would you each choose? (Village winning is NOT an option in this hypothetical situation!)

I think I'd choose the agent.

[Quintessential]

3 minutes ago, Tani said:

So... random question here...

If we had to choose between the elims winning or the agent winning, which would you each choose? (Village winning is NOT an option in this hypothetical situation!)

I think I'd choose the agent.

I'd choose the elims; more people would win that way xD basically the Trolley Problem but with less dire consequences  

Edited May 6, 2021 by Quintessential

[Mat]

1 minute ago, Quintessential said:

I'd choose the elims

|TJ|

Quinn

[---]

I think it doesn't matter to me personally. If the Elims have an engineer and they lose, then good for the Agent I guess. If I was an Elim I wouldn't very much care if I was declared the winner or not, because technically I would have won. Same way I feel about village. If we catch all the Elims I'll feel the same if it's declared an Agent win or a Village win.

[The Unknown Ajah]

I would choose the Agent simply because neutral wins are pretty rare in Mafia games. 

I will be going to the Aviar holding center this turn. If anyone else is going there you should probably declare in-thread to prevent more than three people visiting there.

[Archer]

I’ve decided I jinxed myself in the last airship game by trying to play a lucky character. This time, I’m embracing the completely opposite approach and will hopefully survive longer for it.

First of the Red Dawn was late for work. Again. He held his canoe steady, waiting for the fishing boat ahead of him to pick of the pace so he could get to the mainland. “There isn’t even lanes in the ocean. Why do you keep getting in my way??”

The captain of the vessel waved cheerfully at him. “Steady as she goes, son. There’s a right interesting fish a-head of us, just taking a wee break to admire her.”

*

There’s a lot of rules, but most of them can be ignored until they become relevant.

I’m interpreting the eliminators’ strange win-condition, needing to eliminate ALL of the villagers, as being intended to give the neutral opportunities to affect the outcome. Even if the elims have a majority, the neutral may side with the village to give them control of the exe. Additionally, it gives the neutral more cycles to make improvements. This game isn’t over until it’s over.

As far as I can tell, the hospital doc is not anonymous. That leaves the doctor, who can undo the NK, vulnerable to being identified and attacked. But as we saw last game, it’s a NAI role. If you’re not visiting the hospital, please try to say something in thread so we don’t mistake inactivity for hospital visiting. And if you are in the hospital, please talk! It’s no fun visiting and finding no one wants to chat in the doc.

The Trapper’s packing some heat. The ability to attack on player per round is powerful. I suspect there’s only one of them, or there’s multiple doctors. The Trapper is almost certainly village, and will also be a high priority target. If everyone shoots at once, we can have as many as four attacks in a single cycle, so expect things to get crazy at some point.

The Messenger role allows communication with the spectator doc, so until an elim is killed and the GMs have to decide how to deal with the competing goals of the dead who want to send messages, that should be a valuable source of information for the crew/elims who will get to laugh at their efforts. A bunch of confirmed villagers sharing their notes is a powerful force to be reckoned with.

I can’t imagine there’s less than four elims. This feels like a role madness game, but it would be weird to have one of each of the nine roles and then seven more engineers. There’s probably four or five of them, and then double of three other roles.   

2 hours ago, |TJ| said:

Now about visiting the hospital, I feel like dead people will have something important to say 

That's an absolutely TJ thing to say.  Until you mentioned it, I hadn't realized you'd dropped Shade from you name. My brain played the same trick with Quinn's name change, I totally forgot she had numbers originally. If Mat ever dropped the Dice part of his name, I swear it wouldn't even register. Life is wild