Jump to content
  • 0

Burning unkeyed metal minds


MasterK-Bob

Question

Vin mentioned she could feel something when she burned Sazed's metalmind but couldn't access it. It wasn't unkeyed though. What time happen if an alomancer burned an unkeyed metalmind? Could they access that attribute like tapping it, but not store it since they weren't a feruchemist themselves, perhaps enhanced like for a compounder, or would they just get the power of the metal? Like, could the alomancer just like deage while actively burning an atium mind, but only as long as they were burning, or would they just get the power of atium?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 answers to this question

Recommended Posts

  • 2

If it's UnKeyed it is a metalmind that anyone With the Relevant Ability can access.  So for the purposes of Compounding, a kind of specific combination of powers can fill them, but then anyone with the relevant Allomantic ability should be able to burn it and get a burst of the Feruchemical trait.  I dont think that last person still needs to be a proper twinborn, since the UnKeyed metalmind has no Identity to restrict it.  So for example any Gold Misting should be able to burn an Unkeyed Metalmind and heal.  I think....

An UnSealed Metalmind grants you the ability itself, but the other base metal (the Tin or Gold or whatever) is just included in the medallion itself for convenience, and simply holding it gives you the ability to fill other random chunks as metalminds just as any normal Ferring would. So burning a metalmind would work as normal, and burning the metal in the actual coin would be kind of wasteful but might not actually break it functionally.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1
7 hours ago, Dunkum said:

true, which is why I'm still not completely ruling out your position here, but given the WoB above i'm 90+% convinced tat you'd be able to burn an unkeyed metalmind.

I wasn't really sure, but I thought it out and I believe you are right. If I understand it correctly, an unkeyed metalmind is one that was created by someone who was also storing their Identity making it so any Feruchemist with the right ability can also tap it or store in it. The key hurdle with compounding is that you can't compound a Feruchemist's stored attributes not because you're not a Feruchemist, but because you aren't the person who stored it. So if a Feruchemist can use an unkeyed metalmind just like they would one of their own, I don't see a reason why an Allomancer couldn't either. 

The key thing that bothers me about the WoB is that Brandon said he would be able to use it because he'd have a "Spritual Connection" to it and Connection doesn't really fit into this. The WoB was technically before BoM was released where we learn about the whole Identity trick that allows people to make unkeyed metalminds, so maybe he didn't want to spoil things. I get the feeling that if he answered that today, he'd swap in Identity. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Ohhhh. I'm not sure if this is right. So nicrosil let's you store the power of being a feruchemist (investiture) and duralumin connects someone to that. I'm not sure you need the nicrosil cuz you can already burn the metal as an alomancer, but you might need the connection to it through the duralumin. I'm not sure. I think if it's just unkeyed it might work though since you already have the allomantically ability and just need to access the attribute.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
2 hours ago, Frustration said:

it would have to be unselaed not just unkeyed but yes.

I don't think it would have to be unsealed to burn it.  unkeyed, yes we have confirmation that it needs that at minimum, but it seems to me that that should be sufficient, unless you know of  WoB otherwise

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
1 minute ago, Dunkum said:

I don't think it would have to be unsealed to burn it.  unkeyed, yes we have confirmation that it needs that at minimum, but it seems to me that that should be sufficient, unless you know of  WoB otherwise

unkeyed can only be used by someone with the neccesary power, so unless they where a twinborn they would need to be unsealed

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

unkeyed can only be used by someone with the neccesary power, so unless they where a twinborn they would need to be unsealed

right, but we are talking about using allomancy to burn the metalmind, not trying to tap it ferruchemically.  it isn't impossible that it needs to be unsealed as well, but I don't think it obvious that it would need to.  with no access restriction based on identity, I think someone burning it would be OK.  now they couldn't store that power, so unless they have the capacity to handle the big burst they'll get, it may be mostly wasted, but I think they could.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Quantus is right,
 

Kurkistan

If you spiked out Miles' Feruchemical gold, would he be able to burn his Allomantic reserves [read: Feruchemical reserves using Allomancy] and heal it back?

Brandon Sanderson

If you spiked out his ability to heal gold and somehow left him alive?

Kurkistan

Yeah, but still having Allomancy.

Brandon Sanderson

Still has Allomancy...

Kurkistan

And he’s like in the middle of burning a goldmind.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that would still work. It'd still have a Spiritual Connection to him.

Kurkistan

So if you're a Coinshot and you get [spiked] to have Feruchemical steel, and then you lose the spike after making a store, you can still Compound that for speed?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes... Yeah, that should still work.

Kurkistan

Was Paalm doing that?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

Edited by Raphaborn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
50 minutes ago, Raphaborn said:

Quantus is right,
 

Kurkistan

If you spiked out Miles' Feruchemical gold, would he be able to burn his Allomantic reserves [read: Feruchemical reserves using Allomancy] and heal it back?

Brandon Sanderson

If you spiked out his ability to heal gold and somehow left him alive?

Kurkistan

Yeah, but still having Allomancy.

Brandon Sanderson

Still has Allomancy...

Kurkistan

And he’s like in the middle of burning a goldmind.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that would still work. It'd still have a Spiritual Connection to him.

Kurkistan

So if you're a Coinshot and you get [spiked] to have Feruchemical steel, and then you lose the spike after making a store, you can still Compound that for speed?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes... Yeah, that should still work.

Kurkistan

Was Paalm doing that?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

That's his own metalmind, not someone elses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
17 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's his own metalmind, not someone elses.

right, but the relevant fact is that he doesn't have ferruchemy at the time.  for the purposes of this question burning your own metalmind without access to ferruchemy seems like it would be equivalent to burning an unkeyed metalmind without ferruchemy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
Just now, Dunkum said:

right, but the relevant fact is that he doesn't have ferruchemy at the time.  for the purposes of this question burning your own metalmind without access to ferruchemy seems like it would be equivalent to burning an unkeyed metalmind without ferruchemy.

It also has a spiritual connection to him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
7 hours ago, Dunkum said:

true, which is why I'm still not completely ruling out your position here, but given the WoB above i'm 90+% convinced tat you'd be able to burn an unkeyed metalmind.

I agree - using a concrete example, the "unkeyed" goldmind highly invested with health that Wax removes from Kelesina and gives to Wayne to use - just as Wayne could access the health stored in it as a Bloodmaker Feruchemist, any Augur could burn it (it is gold, after all) and access the health as well.

The difference is that Wayne can regulate how much he gets as any Feruchemist tapping a usable metalmind could do, while the Augur Allomancer would get a burst of healing - possibly a low burst, with a low burn, but much less control of it.

I wonder what an "excess of health" would do?

Oh, and somewhere around here I once wondered if you could mix in shavings of an unkeyed metalmind into an Allomancer's metals, like shaving some Identity-free invested F-iron into the iron flakes for a Lurcher and then having their Steelpulling suddenly (and to their POV, randomly) affected by a burst of increased weight (which would throw off their Pull as it would become a lot more effective all of a sudden). Or could an Allomancer sense the specific flakes of metal being a different "flavor" and choosing not to burn them?

Edited by robardin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

I'm not a magic mechanics genius, but I know a couple things, so hopefully this will provide a complete answer to the Original Post.

Allomancy: The ability to burn metals to gain magical effects. Effect varies by metal.

Feruchemy: The ability to use metals as "batteries" to store and tap attributes magically. Attribute varies by metal.

Metalmind: A Feruchemical "Battery" that has an attribute stored within it.

Compounding: The action of an Allomancer burning a metalmind to receive a massively increased portion of the Feruchemical attribute stored therein.

Identity: A Spiritweb attribute that keys metalminds to the Feruchemists that created them. A Feruchemist cannot use a metalmind, and an Allomancer cannot burn a metalmind that is Identity-keyed to someone else.

Unkeyed Metalmind: A metalmind produced by a Feruchemist that has their Identity stored in an Aluminum metalmind. This metalmind is unique because any Feruchemist can access it.

Medallion (Unsealed Metalmind): A construction of Nicrosil, Duralumin, another metal and some process that is implied to be Hemalurgy. Not only is the charge therein accessible by other Feruchemists, its accessible by anyone, because the Nicrosil and Duralumin allow the holder to simulate being a Feruchemist. 

The thing that allows for compounding is Allomancy. Simply burning the metalminds. The only problem is that you can't burn metalminds you didn't make because Identity is in the way. Vin couldn't burn Sazed's earing because it was keyed with his Identity, but otherwise she could've burned it like she burns any other metal. Having an unkeyed metalmind that does not have Identity in the way should allow the Allomancer of the appropriate type (Lurcher for Iron metalminds, Pewterarm for Pewter metalminds, Mistborn for any metalmind) to burn the metalmind, and immediately received the compounded effects, although they would not be able to interact with it like a Feruchemist does in any way. 

That's the best understanding we have at the moment (disclaimer: contested by some, looking at you, Frustration), unless Brandon decides to complicate the Identity shenanigans further in TLM.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
1 hour ago, The Technovore said:

although they would not be able to interact with it like a Feruchemist does in any way. 

You make an excellent point here. Someone would not be able to do certain things like a compounder who has both abilities would. One key thing that requires the ability to store the attribute is TLR's age trick. You need to store the age to use later or you'll reverse age yourself back into a baby or worse. You can get around that by only burning small amounts of the metal relative to the Feruchemical charge. So, there's a decent amount of planning to be done in allocating the metal into specific portions depending on what you do with it. Or you have to make sure you throw up the metal instead of burning it all. But it's definitely less convenient than having the ability to store attributes that you don't need at that moment on the fly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
2 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

You make an excellent point here. Someone would not be able to do certain things like a compounder who has both abilities would. One key thing that requires the ability to store the attribute is TLR's age trick. You need to store the age to use later or you'll reverse age yourself back into a baby or worse. You can get around that by only burning small amounts of the metal relative to the Feruchemical charge. So, there's a decent amount of planning to be done in allocating the metal into specific portions depending on what you do with it. Or you have to make sure you throw up the metal instead of burning it all. But it's definitely less convenient than having the ability to store attributes that you don't need at that moment on the fly.

Precisely, anything involving just Unkeyed metalminds is going to be too limited to grant Compounding; one way or another they'd only have half the Hack.   UnSealed should do it if you get a matched pair, though the nicrosil eventually runs out so it's not as permanent a solution as Spikes.  

For example, somebody had spiked F-Aluminum into Miles, he could then produce essentially infinite UnKeyed Gold Metalminds. 

  • A Gold Ferring could tap them as if the metalminds were their own to Heal, but could not Compound more.
  • A Gold Misting could Burn them to get LOTS of Healing, and could likely learn to throttle and Flair as other metals, but could not ReStore any of that to Compound and keep the supply going.

This implies that cutting the metalmind would not be very viable without additional steps:

 

Quote

 

Questioner

If a coppermind was to be split in half, would the contents of it be destroyed? Or would there be, in the two separate halves, <of different contents?>?

Brandon Sanderson

You should err on the side of being destroyed, though not permanently, is what I would say on that. There are ways to approach it that wouldn't, but generally if you're ruining a metalmind, the Investiture will stay in it, and if you know what you're doing you can make use of that, but in most cases, it's not gonna fare well.

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)

 

 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Answer this question...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...