Are cognetive shadows not the only type? [cosmere] [discuss]

[something]

Hi, this is my first post so im not realy sure how to write this, sory if its not very clear. Secend, sorry if my spelling is ronge English is not my first language.

Now for my theory, i was just reding elantris for the second time, and i noticed the similarity between the herold Taln matra and the ones of the hoed in elantris. both are repetitive and both are caused partially by pain and partly by magic, in the hoed case, by being frozen in time,and i think that in Taln case, by only remembering the time on braze and loosing anything else just like we saw hapening to the other herolds, that loose most of there memoris just biger becase of the torture. i think that the fact taln was alone on braze for so long, made him forget enything else and become just pain just like the hoed resulting no longer capble of holding th oath pact. on both cases we also see that the mantra is talking about somthing tht was very importent to the person before just like taln mantra about the desolations or Raodens about how he failed his love.

But what does this even mean?

I think this are evidence for the existence of another type of shadows in the cosmere. after all cognetive shadows are either copys of the memory or the memory after the soel left, so i think the hoed are "spiricual shadows" where the mind left and the soel staed. i do not think it is a permenent situation as we see both the hoed heal and Taln healing for moment becase of dalanars bondsmith oath. we see more evidence in the fact that when Raoden was a hoed his mind was just floting around afraid to go back to his body becase of the pain. i akso wonder if the bondsmith oaths are not giving a moment of clarity but the power to forget the pain for a small amount of time. i also think that lifeless without exstra braeth could  be phisical shadows where the mind and soel left but something(a form of Investiture) is mooving the body. a simuler thing i think can be said about the shades of Threnody that dont sem to reamember anything but still act. Im not sure what could be the implications but i just wanted to share my theroy and see if anyone implicationd before me and what does evryone thinks about the posebility.

+ which type do you think the reternd are?

Edited April 26, 2021 by something

[mathiau]

Welcome the the Shard

1 hour ago, something said:

Now for my theory, i was just reding elantris for the second time, and i noticed the similarity between the herold Taln matra and the ones of the hoed in elantris.

That's an interesting connection. Lera said the Ire was made of people who died but did not, he also said it was different from what Kelsier had done though I think the difference is Elantrians have a body while Kelsier is basically a Spren

Of course that add the issue that we've seen Elantrians out of Sel but since we've also seen Seons I don't think it's that much of an issue, and Devotion being the goddess of Love it'd make sense for her gifts to have less strings attached than averaged (but probaly still more than Endowment's gifts)

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I think this are evidence for the existence of another type of shadows in the cosmere. after all cognetive shadows are either copys of the memory or the memory after the soel left, so i think the hoed are "spiricual shadows" where the mind left and the soel staed.

There are two in world hypothesis on the nature of CSs (and Brandon won't ever tell us which one is true) which are "it's an imprint of when the mind left" (Vasher's theory) and "it's the mind and the soul of the person" (Kelsier's theory)

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+ which type do you think the reternd are?

Returned are explicitly CSs

For the Spren vs Body question obviously Returned and Herald are in the body category while Shades are in the Spren one, I would say Fused are in the Spren category as they need another person's body to go in the physical (and as I said a bit before Elantrian would be in the body category if they are indeed CSs)

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 hours ago, mathiau said:

That's an interesting connection. Lera said the Ire was made of people who died but did not, he also said it was different from what Kelsier had done though I think the difference is Elantrians have a body while Kelsier is basically a Spren

Brandon's confirmed that Elantrians are not Cognitive Shadows.

3 hours ago, mathiau said:

Devotion being the goddess of Love it'd make sense for her gifts to have less strings attached than averaged (but probaly still more than Endowment's gifts)

Definitely disagree, I'd expect Devotion to result in more strings the way Honor does, because it's heavily based around ties and bonds. If you're Devoted to something, you're not just gonna leave it or give it to someone else very easily. (Imo, whatever is going on with seons being able to leave Sel is something odd and different, not the normal state of Devotion's Investiture.)

[elisium]

8 hours ago, something said:

Hi, this is my first post so im not realy sure how to write this, sory if its not very clear. Secend, sorry if my spelling is ronge English is not my first language.

Now for my theory, i was just reding elantris for the second time, and i noticed the similarity between the herold Taln matra and the ones of the hoed in elantris. both are repetitive and both are caused partially by pain and partly by magic, in the hoed case, by being frozen in time,and i think that in Taln case, by only remembering the time on braze and loosing anything else just like we saw hapening to the other herolds, that loose most of there memoris just biger becase of the torture. i think that the fact taln was alone on braze for so long, made him forget enything else and become just pain just like the hoed resulting no longer capble of holding th oath pact. on both cases we also see that the mantra is talking about somthing tht was very importent to the person before just like taln mantra about the desolations or Raodens about how he failed his love.

But what does this even mean?

I think this are evidence for the existence of another type of shadows in the cosmere. after all cognetive shadows are either copys of the memory or the memory after the soel left, so i think the hoed are "spiricual shadows" where the mind left and the soel staed. i do not think it is a permenent situation as we see both the hoed heal and Taln healing for moment becase of dalanars bondsmith oath. we see more evidence in the fact that when Raoden was a hoed his mind was just floting around afraid to go back to his body becase of the pain. i akso wonder if the bondsmith oaths are not giving a moment of clarity but the power to forget the pain for a small amount of time. i also think that lifeless without exstra braeth could  be phisical shadows where the mind and soel left but something(a form of Investiture) is mooving the body. a simuler thing i think can be said about the shades of Threnody that dont sem to reamember anything but still act. Im not sure what could be the implications but i just wanted to share my theroy and see if anyone implicationd before me and what does evryone thinks about the posebility.

+ which type do you think the reternd are?

Interesting theory, I would just have assumed that both of their madness and mantras come from just being driven insane from pain, not necessarily anything deeper realmatically. In most cases, I think, when the mind or something else "leaves" within the cosmere, it is gone for good, and can only be replaced by a "spiritual patch", (think Kaladin healing from a shardblade wound, his original arm in his spiritweb is replaced by something similar). If, say, the mind were to leave, I doubt it can be simply brought back with something else other than a fake, so Raoden returning and the other hoed healing without outside interference are likely impossible. That being said, it's got me thinking about the implications of this and Emperor's Soul, where the emperor's mind has departed and a new one must be made. This could be something similar to what you suggest, I think.

[Palantir Watcher]

On 4/26/2021 at 10:47 AM, something said:

Now for my theory, i was just reding elantris for the second time, and i noticed the similarity between the herold Taln matra and the ones of the hoed in elantris. both are repetitive and both are caused partially by pain and partly by magic, in the hoed case, by being frozen in time,and i think that in Taln case, by only remembering the time on braze and loosing anything else just like we saw hapening to the other herolds, that loose most of there memoris just biger becase of the torture. i think that the fact taln was alone on braze for so long, made him forget enything else and become just pain just like the hoed resulting no longer capble of holding th oath pact. on both cases we also see that the mantra is talking about somthing tht was very importent to the person before just like taln mantra about the desolations or Raodens about how he failed his love.

You made a very interesting connection. Given this connection, I wonder if the Heralds might be permanently cured of their madness if/when BAM is released. We know that a Bondsmith swearing an ideal can momentarily cure their madness (maybe any KR would do, at least that's what Ishar seems to say in ROW), which seems to point towards a magical reason for it.

Kalak also seems to believe that BAM's capture wounded Roshar and was likely the reason for the existence of deadeyes. I think some people here on the Shard theorize that deadeyes will be healed after she's released, similar to how Elantrians' seons were healed after the chasm line was drawn. Maybe the Heralds will also be healed, just like the Hoed? It'd be interesting to see if that's the case.

On 4/26/2021 at 10:47 AM, something said:

Hi, this is my first post so im not realy sure how to write this, sory if its not very clear. Secend, sorry if my spelling is ronge English is not my first language.

Welcome to the Shard!

[+Oltux72]

On 26.4.2021 at 5:11 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Brandon's confirmed that Elantrians are not Cognitive Shadows.

That leaves a question, though. What happens to dead Elantrians? They are highly Invested after all.

[Lunu’anaki]

On 4/26/2021 at 5:47 AM, something said:

I think this are evidence for the existence of another type of shadows in the cosmere. after all cognetive shadows are either copys of the memory or the memory after the soel left, so i think the hoed are "spiricual shadows" where the mind left and the soel staed.

This is a very interesting idea. It lines up quite nicely with Deadeyes as well, which we know to be under a condition similar to the Reod.

[Weltall]

10 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That leaves a question, though. What happens to dead Elantrians? They are highly Invested after all.

They're not Cognitive Shadows normally but if/when they die they would presumably be similar to Kelsier at the start of Secret History, persisting in the Cognitive Realm after death and likely for a relatively long span. Whether the way they're affected by their Investiture makes them similar to Slivers in their ability to persist indefinitely, we don't know.

Of course, being dropped into Sel's Cognitive Realm isn't necessarily conducive to a long unlife so whether anyone on Sel could last longer than a few minutes as a Cognitive Shadow is up for debate.

[+Harrycrapper]

On 4/26/2021 at 2:47 AM, something said:

Hi, this is my first post so im not realy sure how to write this, sory if its not very clear. Secend, sorry if my spelling is ronge English is not my first language.

Now for my theory, i was just reding elantris for the second time, and i noticed the similarity between the herold Taln matra and the ones of the hoed in elantris. both are repetitive and both are caused partially by pain and partly by magic, in the hoed case, by being frozen in time,and i think that in Taln case, by only remembering the time on braze and loosing anything else just like we saw hapening to the other herolds, that loose most of there memoris just biger becase of the torture. i think that the fact taln was alone on braze for so long, made him forget enything else and become just pain just like the hoed resulting no longer capble of holding th oath pact. on both cases we also see that the mantra is talking about somthing tht was very importent to the person before just like taln mantra about the desolations or Raodens about how he failed his love.

But what does this even mean?

I think this are evidence for the existence of another type of shadows in the cosmere. after all cognetive shadows are either copys of the memory or the memory after the soel left, so i think the hoed are "spiricual shadows" where the mind left and the soel staed. i do not think it is a permenent situation as we see both the hoed heal and Taln healing for moment becase of dalanars bondsmith oath. we see more evidence in the fact that when Raoden was a hoed his mind was just floting around afraid to go back to his body becase of the pain. i akso wonder if the bondsmith oaths are not giving a moment of clarity but the power to forget the pain for a small amount of time. i also think that lifeless without exstra braeth could  be phisical shadows where the mind and soel left but something(a form of Investiture) is mooving the body. a simuler thing i think can be said about the shades of Threnody that dont sem to reamember anything but still act. Im not sure what could be the implications but i just wanted to share my theroy and see if anyone implicationd before me and what does evryone thinks about the posebility.

+ which type do you think the reternd are?

I'd like to add the Emperor in Emperor's Soul to the whatever we'd call someone whose body and soul are still intact but their mind is gone. I know she said she was making him a new soul, but it seemed to me that she was creating memories and thought processes more than recreating his literal soul. 

[mathiau]

On 30/06/2021 at 9:57 PM, Harrycrapper said:

I'd like to add the Emperor in Emperor's Soul to the whatever we'd call someone whose body and soul are still intact but their mind is gone. I know she said she was making him a new soul, but it seemed to me that she was creating memories and thought processes more than recreating his literal soul. 

Yes, and since these two things are more on the Cognitive side I think she created a Spren and attached it to the Empror's body. Basically she forged a Fused into existence (or more accurately the Dor version of a Returned, since he needs daily intakes of Dor vial the stamps)

[Frustration]

On 6/30/2021 at 1:57 PM, Harrycrapper said:

I'd like to add the Emperor in Emperor's Soul to the whatever we'd call someone whose body and soul are still intact but their mind is gone. I know she said she was making him a new soul, but it seemed to me that she was creating memories and thought processes more than recreating his literal soul. 

More like his soul and body where still there, but he needed a mind.