Your opinions on the Child Champion theory

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Bejardin1250 said:

 

Oh I am so going to 

so much hate

I was actually having a good time 

anyway I’m going away for 2 days so

I won’t respond till Wendsday

See you man.

Have fun

Edited May 16, 2021 by Frustration

[Green chicken]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I do believe there will be a loophole, just that Child Champion is not it.

@Bejardin1250: "and frankly a classic duel just makes no sense to happen"

@Frustration: "It's what we've been building towards since WoK, and personally something I really want to see, the amount of fighting in SA is crimminally low."

That's quite contradictory.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Green chicken said:

@Bejardin1250: "and frankly a classic duel just makes no sense to happen"

@Frustration: "It's what we've been building towards since WoK, and personally something I really want to see, the amount of fighting in SA is crimminally low."

That's quite contradictory.

Actually

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I don't think he will, just that any attmpts he makes to void the contract will either apply during/after the duel itself, or will fail.

 

[Mistborn Surgebinder]

I don't know if anyone's brought this up, but my theory for a while has been Cultivation as Taravodiums champion.  She would not have done anything for Rayse (although it's also a pet theory of mine that she helped kill Tanavast, yes I know they were married, my theory is that he was going insane and she helped to put him out of his misery but with a plan to ensure he wasn't shattered so someone else could pick up the power), but she seems to be on Taravangian's side and was grooming him for this.  So... Cultivation as Odiums champion.  I'm calling it here.

OR... Moash/Vyre.  Who would absolutely kill a child.  Imagine it.  Imagine the child champion theory is true, but it's Moash, and he just stabs the kid in the face.  I could see it happening.

[Bejarden]

4 minutes ago, Mistborn Surgebinder said:

I don't know if anyone's brought this up, but my theory for a while has been Cultivation as Taravodiums champion.  She would not have done anything for Rayse (although it's also a pet theory of mine that she helped kill Tanavast, yes I know they were married, my theory is that he was going insane and she helped to put him out of his misery but with a plan to ensure he wasn't shattered so someone else could pick up the power), but she seems to be on Taravangian's side and was grooming him for this.  So... Cultivation as Odiums champion.  I'm calling it here

If Shards could be Champions (and I doubt that) why woudnt TOdium be his own Champion, much more reliable

 

5 minutes ago, Mistborn Surgebinder said:

OR... Moash/Vyre.  Who would absolutely kill a child.  Imagine it.  Imagine the child champion theory is true, but it's Moash, and he just stabs the kid in the face.  I could see it happening.

If Moash is the enemy’s champion why the storms would Dalinar pick a child as his

scratch that

why would Dalinar ever pick a Child to be his Champion?!

[Mistborn Surgebinder]

3 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

If Shards could be Champions (and I doubt that) why woudnt TOdium be his own Champion, much more reliable

 

If Moash is the enemy’s champion why the storms would Dalinar pick a child as his

scratch that

why would Dalinar ever pick a Child to be his Champion?!

Cultivation as champion would be a significantly bigger shock to Dalinar than almost anyone else.  It would throw him off his game.  It would be the 1 thing he would least expect, I would imagine.  Even as big a shock as Taravodium would be, Dalinar knows him.  Cultivation, a shard, a freaking dragon shard, an unknown shocking entity, what does Dalinar do with that?

If you have to go into the battle with your champion chosen before you know the other champion, a child (which, fun fact, has become a big theory in the fandom and a favorite of many including at least a few of the mods) would be a great choice.  To answer your other reply to this, no, i don't think 99.9% of singers would just kill a child.  I don't even think most fused would.  Have you read RoW?  They seem to have some honor.  Kaladin discusses that with Dalinar.  I don't even think most "evil" humans would.  But I think Moash would.  

I find either of these theories more plausible than almost any other that I've seen.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Mistborn Surgebinder said:

If you have to go into the battle with your champion chosen before you know the other champion, a child (which, fun fact, has become a big theory in the fandom and a favorite of many including at least a few of the mods) would be a great choice.  To answer your other reply to this, no, i don't think 99.9% of singers would just kill a child.  I don't even think most fused would.  Have you read RoW?  They seem to have some honor.  Kaladin discusses that with Dalinar.  I don't even think most "evil" humans would.  But I think Moash would.  

A favorite of many, but vastly unpopular

[Mistborn Surgebinder]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

A favorite of many, but vastly unpopular

I stand by my Cultivation as champion, though I just read an incredibly convincing thread on Gavilar as Odiums champion that I'm going to be mulling.

[Andy92]

Imo it should be Kaladin vs. Moash. That would bring their arc since the fracture that occurred in WoR to a final close in a monumental way. 

[Bejarden]

20 minutes ago, Mistborn Surgebinder said:

Cultivation as champion would be a significantly bigger shock to Dalinar than almost anyone else.  It would throw him off his game.  It would be the 1 thing he would least expect, I would imagine.  Even as big a shock as Taravodium would be, Dalinar knows him.  Cultivation, a shard, a freaking dragon shard, an unknown shocking entity, what does Dalinar do with that?

Either would be suitably suprising, but why would TOdium trust Cultivation with the duel when he can do it himself 

Also it would be a thousand times more suprising if the man he thought dead came back as a Shard and started to kill him

22 minutes ago, Mistborn Surgebinder said:

If you have to go into the battle with your champion chosen before you know the other champion, a child (which, fun fact, has become a big theory in the fandom and a favorite of many including at least a few of the mods) would be a great choice.  To answer your other reply to this, no, i don't think 99.9% of singers would just kill a child.  I don't even think most fused would.  Have you read RoW?  They seem to have some honor.  Kaladin discusses that with Dalinar.  I don't even think most "evil" humans would.  But I think Moash would.

But why would Dalinar sacrifice a child to that chance that Odium, the greatest evil he knows, will send someone that will refuse to kill a child?

Odiums side is vastly not honorable except for the shnayim which Odium won’t choose

Think about this, why would a singer not kill a child?

This kid is the only thing that stands between you and freedom, this kid represents all that you hate, Alethkar oppression and the evils of the Alethi who are willing to sacrifice a child

from a singers perspective it’s not their fault that the enemy chose a kid to be sent to their death that’s on them

A fused is by and large ruthless 

Raboniel was willing to kill innocent people to just buy some time, what would she do to stop a war 

Lezian would do the same thing he wanted to kill Oroden 

I doubt any other Fused would hesitate except Lewshi who is a traitor now

And humans would do it for their life, for they would be tortured and killed if they refuse

[Procrastination]

I really hate this theory. It seems like a way for Brandon to get out of having to really make a superclimax scene. Also, Mr. T specifically says to Dalinar “No, your true Ideal is never giving up, no matter the cost. Do you realize the pride in that sentiment??”, (Or something like that, I do these quotes from memory), and Dalinar not even trying because it’s a child, just giving up, is kind of against his character arc.

[Nirrov]

People seems to hate child champion theory because they think we won't get to see a big epic battle between champion when bs can do both. Lets say champion gavinor does show up and dalinar get flashback of Rathalas and refuse to kill little gav and szeth(its szeth book between he has to have a big role in SA5 somehow)  is the one end up becoming the champion. When ishar gets cured and help dalinar understand his connection surge, dalinar change his mind refuse to let gavinor die and take his connection to himself end up fighting szeth as odium champion. 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Nirrov said:

People seems to hate child champion theory because they think we won't get to see a big epic battle between champion when bs can do both. Lets say champion gavinor does show up and dalinar get flashback of Rathalas and refuse to kill little gav and szeth(its szeth book between he has to have a big role in SA5 somehow)  is the one end up becoming the champion. When ishar gets cured and help dalinar understand his connection surge, dalinar change his mind refuse to let gavinor die and take his connection to himself end up fighting szeth as odium champion. 

What does that add?

If Dalinar can change who the Champion is just pick a fused and make them the chanpion, or a cremling or something.

[Nirrov]

I am not saying that's the way story going to go only that bs could make a child champion and also do a big epic battle of champion with someone else as well. 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nirrov said:

I am not saying that's the way story going to go only that bs could make a child champion and also do a big epic battle of champion with someone else as well. 

But that adds nothing.

If the Champion is going to change there isn't a reason to make the first Champion a child.

[Nirrov]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

But that adds nothing.

If the Champion is going to change there isn't a reason to make the first Champion a child.

What if by making dalinar do something  honorable but not playing by the contract helps odium breaks free of his prison. There is definitely lot of ways  bs can write this that can makes sense. 

[Frustration]

33 minutes ago, Nirrov said:

What if by making dalinar do something  honorable but not playing by the contract helps odium breaks free of his prison. There is definitely lot of ways  bs can write this that can makes sense. 

That's the same thing as "Oh no, a child, I lose."

Which not only is anticlimactic it's not something Dalinar would do.

And on top of that you are approaching this as "Brandon must make Child Champion happen" when it's far easier, and more rewarding to do anything else.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Frustration

[+robardin]

It can't be a child, or Cultivation(?!), as Odium's Champion, any more than it can be Dalinar vs. himself, or Kaladin.

Odium already tried to claim Dalinar, and then Kaladin, to be his champion, but both turned away from him. Clearly, he can't just make whoever or whatever his champion.

I mean, even if the example of Dalinar at Thaylen Fields wasn't enough (who Odium had been "grooming" with the Thrill for most of his adult life), the very terms of the contest specify "We each send a WILLING champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru..." And it'd be a strange scenario where a child - even little Gavinor, who wants revenge on Moash -  both is deemed to be "of contractual age" for such a thing, and also becomes the Champion for the side that Moash is on.

I think @Frustration is spot on that there is some classic Sanderson twist in the works vis-a-vis the Contest, that it won't be a simple winner-take-all throwdown grudge match. But what?

I think it is very telling when Taravodium is thinking about how a clever person (which Mr. T is, and Rayse was not) would arrange things so that "no matter the outcome, he would be satisfied", and that he even saw a way to still do that despite being bound to the terms Rayse had already agreed to with Dalinar

It smacks of Hoid talking to Jasnah (RoW, Ch. 99) while drafting his suggested contract with Odium (the one that specified him as a go-between and thus exempt from being a direct target of Odium's), about how he once lost to a gambler on Nalthis despite rigging the game: "I shouldn't have been able to lose. Yet I did. Someone else rigged the game so that no matter what move I made, I could not win. The game was a tie, something I hadn't anticipated."

Consider that the terms specify how each side (Team Odium v. Team Honor) would get a specified outcome if that side's champion "won" the "contest to the death". It does not specify what happens in the event of a tie, which could here cannot be interpreted as "both sides win" as the results would be contradictory. But it CAN be interpreted as "neither side wins", in which case...

Does that mean the pre-contest status quo stands? Or would something else be made possible after a no-win contest that was not possible for Odium before?

I also feel like whatever Taravangian is thinking of doing, Cultivation already foresaw him possibly doing and manipulated him towards doing. I mean, surely she's the source of that "warm light" that Dalinar, Kaladin, etc., have felt from time to time that is independent of Honor's visions and not Stormlight, right?

And it was Rayse who hadn't wanted to partake of any other Shard than Odium, to be the last Shard standing - that wasn't actually part of the Shard's intent (and Rayse straining to "do his thing" was part of what "left him vulnerable" in the end, as a Vessel)?

Are we going to see a new Shard after SA5, the Shard of War? Now that would be Cultivation's greatest act of "nurturing a change"!