Your opinions on the Child Champion theory

[Bejarden]

 

Quote

Gavinor, or any child, accepts the role of Odium's champion... they're not innocent anymore. They just joined the enemy forces that Dalinar is actively at war with.

When a child is convinced to do something that isn’t the child’s fault.

There isn’t enough stakes for Dalinar to kill Gavinor. He’ll lose Alethkar, sure. But the Singers need a place to go anyway.

They could kick them out but then your right back where they started, hate against the singers. 
And a “trail of tears” type exodus that will leave thousands dead.

18 hours ago, Frustration said:

Stakes are irrelivent, we know that Dalinar won't lose so the fate of the entire Cosmere might as well be at stake but it won't make a difference.

What? Who’s says Dalinar won’t lose? 

 

16 hours ago, Frustration said:

And on top of this how does the posibility of a loophole necesitate a Child Champion, that has far more drawbacks than advantages, and doesn't even garuntee a breech of contract?

Why would TOdium let his entire contest rest on the fate of a normal duel. That’s a kinda 50/50 shot. 
It’s pretty obvious TOdiums gonna pull a fast one.

 

16 hours ago, Forms of mind said:

If gavinor dies then Adolin replaces Gavinorn as heir. It doesn't help Odium. 

Heir to what? If TOdiums wins Alethkar will be a meaningless country with no land

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

When a child is convinced to do something that isn’t the child’s fault.

then they can't be willing, can't have free will without consequences.

8 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

There isn’t enough stakes for Dalinar to kill Gavinor. He’ll lose Alethkar, sure. But the Singers need a place to go anyway.

They already have about half the continent. And his soul is on the line, litterally thousands of lives as well.

8 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

They could kick them out but then your right back where they started, hate against the singers. 
And a “trail of tears” type exodus that will leave thousands dead.

They will leave with the fused.

9 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

What? Who’s says Dalinar won’t lose? 

A basic understanding of Brandon and his works, the fact that he named his own son after Dalinar, I have more.

10 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Why would TOdium let his entire contest rest on the fate of a normal duel. That’s a kinda 50/50 shot. 
It’s pretty obvious TOdiums gonna pull a fast one.

I'm not saying he won't, I think he will try(and probably fail)  but a child champion isn't the way

[Jofwu]

3 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

When a child is convinced to do something that isn’t the child’s fault.

The contract explicitly stated that the champions must be willing. A child convinced to do something that they don't really understand is not willing. A child who is willing to be a god's fight-to-the-death champion is not innocent.

5 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

There isn’t enough stakes for Dalinar to kill Gavinor.

I don't understand this at all. The stakes of losing is that he becomes a Fused and leads Odium's war effort across the cosmere. That's like... worst case scenario for Dalinar. By NOT fighting he would be agreeing to kill innocents at Odium's command for the rest of his immortal life. Sounds like pretty darn big stakes to me.

[Bejarden]

Children can be aware of what they are doing, but you still don’t hold them accountable.

A child doesn’t deserve to die if he makes a mistake, 

he can be willing and still be innocent

18 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

e stakes of losing is that he becomes a Fused and leads Odium's war effort across the cosmere. That's like... worst case scenario for Dalinar.

 what does anyone on Roshar care if Odium goes on to attack other planets? If it means saving his nephew he will make that sacrifice that will keep everyone he loves and knows safe

[Frustration]

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

Children can be aware of what they are doing, but you still don’t hold them accountable.

A child doesn’t deserve to die if he makes a mistake, 

he can be willing and still be innocent

That's not how willingness works.

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

what does anyone on Roshar care if Odium goes on to attack other planets? If it means saving his nephew he will make that sacrifice that will keep everyone he loves and knows safe

...

Did you read OB?

Why would he willingly go back to the blackthorn? For any reason?

[Bejarden]

Just now, Frustration said:

That's not how willingness works.

Yes. Yes it is, children are exceptions to the rule but they still can be the Champion through dirty tricks

 

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Why would he willingly go back to the blackthorn? For any reason?

To save his nephews life

[Frustration]

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

Yes. Yes it is, children are exceptions to the rule but they still can be the Champion through dirty tricks

No, they aren't, if you are willing to do something you accept all responsibility for doing it. If a child is young enough that they are incapable of understanding that they can't be willing. Gavilnor is still younger than the age of accountability and thus cannot be willing.

2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

To save his nephews life

......

Tell me something.

Why do you think that that is a realistic outcome for KoW?

[Bejarden]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

a child is young enough that they are incapable of understanding that they can't be willing. Gavilnor is still younger than the age of accountability and thus cannot be willing.

The age of understanding is under the age of accountability, Gavinor can understand but is not able to be held accountable.

 

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

......

Tell me something.

Why do you think that that is a realistic outcome for KoW?

What? Odium checkmating Dalinar to becoming his Emissary or freeing Odium?

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

The age of understanding is under the age of accountability, Gavinor can understand but is not able to be held accountable.

If you understand you are accountable.

6 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

What? Odium checkmating Dalinar to becoming his Emissary or freeing Odium?

Dalinar losing.

[Bejarden]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If you understand you are accountable.

10 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Has nothing to do with willingness. Gavinor can even think he’s accountable for what he’s doing. But he’s not

 

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Dalinar losing.

Yes I do think that we will not have him in the back 1/2 

The most Anti-Climactic thing to happen will be:   Some random guy like Szeth or El will be Odiums champion.   Dalinar fights them for a few minutes and then wins.

Why would anyone want to read that?

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Has nothing to do with willingness. Gavinor can even think he’s accountable for what he’s doing. But he’s not

If he is not accountable, he doesn't understand, if he doesn't understand he isn't willing.

2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Yes I do think that we will not have him in the back 1/2 

The most Anti-Climactic thing to happen will be:   Some random guy like Szeth or El will be Odiums champion.   Dalinar fights them for a few minutes and then wins.

No the most anti-climactic thing to happen is Dalinar get's to the top see's Gavilnor and says "oh no, I lose" that would be stupid.

3 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Why would anyone want to read that?

That is litterally the reason I read

[Jofwu]

If we're doing a Trolley Problem that is...

• Option A: Kid who willingly joined a hateful god (who is leading a war of vengeance and has plans to conquer other words) by agreeing to a fight to the death with his uncle
• Option B: Thousands (if not millions) of human lives

... I don't think it's a very interesting Trolley Problem.

I am, for the record, not in agreement that this is the level of "willingness" that the contract allows. But even if we're entertaining that possibility, I still think this is rather absurd. Children who do really stupid things that get thousands of people killed are absolutely guilty for what they did. It's a terrible situation, but they're not innocent.

We don't normally sentence such a child to death for such a crime... But then we're not talking about this as a judge or jury deciding after the fact how severe their sentence should be either. We're talking about the morality of protecting the lives of many from their foolish actions in an in-progress situation.

[Bejarden]

2 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

• Option B: Thousands (if not millions) of human lives

 

Why would millions die?

TOdium won’t send him on a 1vCosmere because Dalinar will lose.

He joins the Fused, saves Roshar.

And Dalinar probably knows that if he doesn’t do if someone else will and they could be worse

[Frustration]

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

Why would millions die?

TOdium won’t send him on a 1vCosmere because Dalinar will lose.

Odium litterally said he was going to do just that

[Bejarden]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Odium litterally said he was going to do just that

All he says is “To serve my own goals”

That can mean many many things 

[Frustration]

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

All he says is “To serve my own goals”

That can mean many many things 

"He was going to save them all"

[Jofwu]

3 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Why would millions die?

Odium chuckled softly, rotating his scepter beneath his hand so the butt ground against the golden stone at their feet. “Do you know why I make men fight, Dalinar? Why I created the Thrill? Why I encourage the wars?”

“To destroy us.”

“Why would I want to destroy you? I am your god, Dalinar.” Odium shook his head, staring into the infinite golden distance. “I need soldiers. For the true battle that is coming, not for one people on one miserable windswept continent. A battle of the gods. A battle for everything.

“Roshar is a training ground. The time will come that I unleash you upon the others who are not nearly as well trained. Not nearly as hardened as I have made you.”

[...]

“My life? Odium, I intend to be my own champion. I’ll have died if you win.”

“Yes,” Odium said, eyes shining golden. “You will have. And you will give your soul to me. You, Dalinar, will join the Fused. You will become immortal, and will personally serve me. Bound by your oaths. You will be the one I send to the stars to serve my interests in the cosmere.”

[Bejarden]

Whatever happens that war will happen. He wants Dalinar to be a preliminary emissary not an assassin to kill everybody in the Cosmere

[Jofwu]

Preliminary emissary? I don't see how it is reasonable for Dalinar to know everything he does about Odium and then have this conversation and think "so I'll be your political ambassador?" Odium intends for Dalinar to be on the front lines of his war effort. This doesn't seem questionable to me, so I don't have much more to argue on that topic.

And I don't think this is an matter of utilitarianism. Dalinar isn't thinking "Well, Odium waging war across the universe is inevitable, so I might as well let Gavinor kill me. The war on Roshar will be done and the rest is unchangeable. That is the antithesis of who Dalinar is. It's the antithesis of Dalinar's "hope" speech that he gave to Jasnah and Yanagawn right before with Odium. Dalinar will NOT accept that he cannot save lives by resisting Odium.

Heck, if the deal is this sweet for Dalinar, why is he even bothering? Swap out Gavinor with... ANYONE... And you're saying that changes the math for Dalinar? If he would kill an unquestionably guilty person for the sake of defeating Odium then surely he has some motivation for winning? You think the horror he felt at making the decision was really so small that the guilt-tier of his opponent is a big enough feather to change the equation?

I have a hard time understanding how any of this is consistent with the nature of the challenge and Dalinar's character.

[Frustration]

From a purely naritive standpoint having a Child Champion is the worst possible move.

Ether Dalinar kills him, or let's himself be killed or breaks contract, either way a large section of the fanbase will hate it. It would take an increadible amount of work, even by Brandon's standards to even begin to justify it, it would ruin either Dalinar's character or all the progress the characters have made so far.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Frustration

[Bejarden]

18 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Preliminary emissary? I don't see how it is reasonable for Dalinar to know everything he does about Odium and then have this conversation and think "so I'll be your political ambassador?" Odium intends for Dalinar to be on the front lines of his war effort. This doesn't seem questionable to me, so I don't have much more to argue on that topic.

 

Why would he think “ oh so I’ll go and kill everyone by myself since you have no one else now

 

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

From a purely naritive standpoint having a Child Champion is the worst possible move.

Ether Dalinar kills him, or let's himself be killed or breaks contract, either way a large section of the fanbase will hate it. It would take an increadible amount of work, even by Brandon's standards to even begin to justify it, it would ruin either Dalinar's character or all the progress the characters have made so far.

You have made it abundantly clear that you hate the Child Champion you don’t have to repeat it every 10 posts

[Frustration]

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

Why would he think “ oh so I’ll go and kill everyone by myself since you have no one else now

Why would Dalinar's opinion matter?

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

You have made it abundantly clear that you hate the Child Champion you don’t have to repeat it every 10 posts

They are good points and I have yet to see a counter to them

[Bejarden]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Why would Dalinar's opinion matter?

6 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Because that’s what I was discussing 

 

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They are good points and I have yet to see a counter to them

 it’s an opinion that I completely disagree with I don’t need to counter it because it’s wrong

[Frustration]

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

Because that’s what I was discussing 

But he would essentially be Odium's slave at that point.

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

it’s an opinion that I completely disagree with I don’t need to counter it because it’s wrong

Opinion?

Well let's break it down

20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Ether Dalinar kills him, or let's himself be killed or breaks contract, either way a large section of the fanbase will hate it.

Simply by having a Child Champion 55% of the fanbase already has a negative reaction. By Making Dalinar return to Warcriminal Everyone who liked Dalinar has a negative reaction. By Having Dalinar kill a child Everyone who liked Dalinar has a negative reaction, By having him Break the agreement, OB and RoW are undone which leaves the reader with dissatisfaction

All Fact

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It would take an increadible amount of work, even by Brandon's standards to even begin to justify it,

This is the only part you could argue is opinion.

[+mdross81]

For those that are such strong believers in the child champion theory, can you explain how it plays out in any kind of satisfying or fulfilling way? I understand that there's some support in the books for why it could possibly happen. But what I still haven't seen is any kind of explanation of how it would be good storytelling. And I think there have been a lot of explanations of why it wouldn't be.