Your opinions on the Child Champion theory

[Green chicken]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Then that wouldn't be a willing champion.

Taravangian doesn't care about the "spirit of the contract", if the the child says yes, then to him it's fair game. The contract never specifies that coercion is not allowed, therefore it is allowed. Legally, if you are manipulated into entering a contract, then the contract is binding. For example, parents threatening to disown their children if they don't enter a contract, is not illegal.    

[Frustration]

Just now, Green chicken said:

Taravangian doesn't care about the "spirit of the contract", if the the child says yes, then to him it's fair game. The contract never specifies that coercion is not allowed, therefore it is allowed. Legally, if you are manipulated into entering a contract, then the contract is binding. For example, parents threatening to disown their children if they don't enter a contract, is not illegal.    

Legality has nothing to do with it, the contract would be spiritual and thus based upon the ideal of the contract, breaking it would let Cultivation splinter Odium with no threat of repercutions. Someone who is coerced into doing something isn't willing.

[Green chicken]

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Legality has nothing to do with it, the contract would be spiritual and thus based upon the ideal of the contract, breaking it would let Cultivation splinter Odium with no threat of repercutions. Someone who is coerced into doing something isn't willing.

Tell that to Hoid, stealing his short term memories was a spiritual violation of the contract, but not a technical violation. As I already said several times, Taravangian doesn't care about the spirit of the contract. Rayse was the only one who cared about the spirit of the contract, Leras broke the spirit of the contract, and it took over 10000 years for Ati to kill him. If breaking the spirit of the contract was such a big deal, then Ati would have killed Leras much faster. Not only that, Odium is less invested than Cultivation, and therefore stronger. It took a a strength difference for Ati to kill Leras. If they were equal, then Ati wouldn't have been able to kill Leras.        

[Frustration]

Just now, Green chicken said:

Tell that to Hoid, stealing his short term memories was a spiritual violation of the contract, but not a technical violation.

It didn't harm him, how is that a spiritual violation? and reguardless Coersion doesn't make you willing.

2 minutes ago, Green chicken said:

 MB

Spoiler

As I already said several times, Taravangian doesn't care about the spirit of the contract. Rayse was the only one who cared about the spirit of the contract, Leras broke the spirit of the contract, and it took over 10000 years for Ati to kill him. If breaking the spirit of the contract was such a big deal, then Ati would have killed Leras much faster. Not only that, Odium is less invested than Cultivation, and therefore stronger. It took a a strength difference for Ati to kill Leras. If they were equal, then Ati wouldn't have been able to kill Leras.        

 

Again willing champion.

Not someone you shoved in a cell and stabbed a bunch of times. Also please hide the mistborn spoilers

Just listen to all the gymnastics you have to do to justify the Child Champion,

It's far easier to give evidence for El.

also

MB

Spoiler

Preservation and Ruin had equal power

Leras himself said thet he didn't break the agreement, at all, just exploited it.

 

[Green chicken]

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It didn't harm him, how is that a spiritual violation? and reguardless Coersion doesn't make you willing.

Again willing champion.

Not someone you shoved in a cell and stabbed a bunch of times. Also please hide the mistborn spoilers

Just listen to all the gymnastics you have to do to justify the Child Champion,

It's far easier to give evidence for El.

also

MB

  Reveal hidden contents

Preservation and Ruin had equal power

Leras himself said thet he didn't break the agreement, at all, just exploited it.

 

First of all Taravangian doesn't want to win the contest of the champions, the contest is horrible for Taravangian, Rayse was tricked into accepting the contest. Even winning the contest is worse than letting the war continue, all that Taravangian can gain is Dalinar, at the cost of potentially losing Alethkar and Herdaz. Second of all, Taravangian considers the contest to be a horrible deal. Finally, all loopholes break the sprit of the contract because the definition of a loophole is: 

an ambiguity or omission in the text through which the INTENT of a statute, contract, or obligation may be evaded. 

Highlight to show spoilers 

Not only that, but in hero of ages harmony wrote:

By sacrificing most of his consciousness, Preservation created Ruin's prison, breaking their deal and trying to keep Ruin from destroying what they had created. This event left their powers again nearly balanced—Ruin imprisoned, only a trace of himself capable of leaking out. Preservation reduced to a mere wisp of what he once was, barely capable of thought and action. These two minds were, of course, independent of the raw force of their powers. Actually, I am uncertain of how thoughts and personalities came to be attached to the powers in the first place—but I believe they were not there originally. For both powers could be detached from the minds that ruled them.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Green chicken said:

First of all Taravangian doesn't want to win the contest of the champions, the contest is horrible for Taravangian, Rayse was tricked into accepting the contest. Even winning the contest is worse than letting the war continue, all that Taravangian can gain is Dalinar, at the cost of potentially losing Alethkar and Herdaz. Second of all, Taravangian considers the contest to be a horrible deal. Finally, all loopholes break the sprit of the contract because the definition of a loophole is: 

an ambiguity or omission in the text through which the INTENT of a statute, contract, or obligation may be evaded. 

Highlight to show spoilers 

Not only that, but in hero of ages harmony wrote:

By sacrificing most of his consciousness, Preservation created Ruin's prison, breaking their deal and trying to keep Ruin from destroying what they had created. This event left their powers again nearly balanced—Ruin imprisoned, only a trace of himself capable of leaking out. Preservation reduced to a mere wisp of what he once was, barely capable of thought and action. These two minds were, of course, independent of the raw force of their powers. Actually, I am uncertain of how thoughts and personalities came to be attached to the powers in the first place—but I believe they were not there originally. For both powers could be detached from the minds that ruled them.

I'm not saying he isn't looking for a loophole just that a Child is not the one it's going to be.

What does Brandon have to gain from it? A potentailly shoking twist, maybe a little moral skriming

What does he have to lose? Given our polling data more people don't like it than those that do. It will be an uphill battle to get them on board. It ruins all sense of tension, and completly watses what could have been an epic scene.

 

Can someone wiht SH find me the quote where Leras is talking about the deal?

[+mdross81]

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Can someone wiht SH find me the quote where Leras is talking about the deal?

I think this is the one you’re looking for:

Spoiler

“Oh, Senna…” Preservation whispered. “I’m losing this place. Losing them all…”

“We are going to stop it,” Kelsier said, pulling back.

“It can’t be stopped. The deal…”

“Deals can be broken.”

“Not these kinds of deals, Kelsier. I was able to trick Ruin before, lock him away, by fooling him with our agreement. But that wasn’t a breach of contract, more leaving a hole in the agreement to be exploited. This time there are no holes.”

“Then we go out kicking and screaming,” Kelsier said. “You and me, we’re a team.”

Quote

 

 

[Frustration]

Just now, mdross81 said:

I think this is the one you’re looking for:

  Reveal hidden contents

“Oh, Senna…” Preservation whispered. “I’m losing this place. Losing them all…”

“We are going to stop it,” Kelsier said, pulling back.

“It can’t be stopped. The deal…”

“Deals can be broken.”

“Not these kinds of deals, Kelsier. I was able to trick Ruin before, lock him away, by fooling him with our agreement. But that wasn’t a breach of contract, more leaving a hole in the agreement to be exploited. This time there are no holes.”

“Then we go out kicking and screaming,” Kelsier said. “You and me, we’re a team.”

 

Yes thank you.

 

@Green chicken that one

[Green chicken]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

I'm not saying he isn't looking for a loophole just that a Child is not the one it's going to be.

What does Brandon have to gain from it? A potentailly shoking twist, maybe a little moral skriming

What does he have to lose? Given our polling data more people don't like it than those that do. It will be an uphill battle to get them on board. It ruins all sense of tension, and completly watses what could have been an epic scene.

 

Can someone wiht SH find me the quote where Leras is talking about the deal?

The scene is going to ruined either way, Taravangian is trying to win, the contest for him doesn't change his situation, most fused won't obey him, due to the fact that he is a human, and because they want to destroy humanity. If he loses, they are definitely not going to give up Alethkar and Herdaz without a fight. Some of the fused might stop fighting if Taravangian wins, however a significant portion will continue to fight anyway so that they could exterminate the humans. The only thing that would change, would that Taravangian will lose control of his forces. The contract will guarantee a loss for Taravangian either way. His only way to win is to find a loophole that frees him from the contract. The contest is not going to be some sort of epic fight, Taravangian is going to use a some sort of loophole to break free of the contest.

I will be very disappointed if the climax of the entire arc, is some meaningless fight between two people that only decides the fate of two countries and Dalinars soul. Without some sort of loophole, book 5 will have the lowest stakes of every stormlight book, except for Twok. In Wor, we had a upcoming desolation to worry about, In Oathbringer we had to worry about a desolation, in Row we had to worry about the unmaking of the Sibling, and in Kow(t) we will have to worry about(assuming that there won't a loophole) whether or not Alethkar and Herdaz will be liberated.  

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Green chicken said:

The scene is going to ruined either way, Taravangian is trying to win, the contest for him doesn't change his situation, most fused won't obey him, due to the fact that he is a human, and because they want to destroy humanity. If he loses, they are definitely not going to give up Alethkar and Herdaz without a fight. Some of the fused might stop fighting if Taravangian wins, however a significant portion will continue to fight anyway so that they could exterminate the humans. The only thing that would change, would that Taravangian will lose control of his forces. The contract will guarantee a loss for Taravangian either way. His only way to win is to find a loophole that frees him from the contract. The contest is not going to be some sort of epic fight, Taravangian is going to use a some sort of loophole to break free of the contest.

Your premise is flawed, you assume that the Fused won't listen to him, they have to, he can take away their immortality.

3 minutes ago, Green chicken said:

I will be very disappointed if the climax of the entire arc, is some meaningless fight between two people that only decides the fate of two countries and Dalinars soul. Without some sort of loophole, book 5 will have the lowest stakes of every stormlight book, except for Twok. In Wor, we had a upcoming desolation to worry about, In Oathbringer we had to worry about a desolation, in Row we had to worry about the unmaking of the Sibling, and in Kow(t) we will have to worry about(assuming that there won't a loophole) whether or not Alethkar and Herdaz will be liberated.  

Stakes are irrelivent, we know that Dalinar won't lose so the fate of the entire Cosmere might as well be at stake but it won't make a difference.

[Green chicken]

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Your premise is flawed, you assume that the Fused won't listen to him, they have to, he can take away their immortality.

Stakes are irrelivent, we know that Dalinar won't lose so the fate of the entire Cosmere might as well be at stake but it won't make a difference.

I honestly doubt that he can do that. Even if he can, the normal singers aren't giving up Alethkar and Herdaz without a fight. Also the Vedens and Iriali joined odium for power, there not going to accept an end to the war either. While losing the fused will be a blow, the skybreakers would still support the singers, and there is no way that the Vedens and Iriali will accept singers from Alethkar. 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Green chicken

[Frustration]

Just now, Green chicken said:

I honestly doubt that he can do that. Even if he can, the normal singers aren't giving up Alethkar and Herdaz without a fight. Also the Vedens and Iriali joined odium for power, there not going to accept an end to the war either. While losing the fused will be a blow, the skybreakers would still support the singers, there is no way that the Vedens and Iriali will accept singers from Alethkar. 

Nale supports Odium, not the Singers, and without Regals or Fused what are they going to do? And on top of that the Fused are in chanrge and the singers obey them.

[Green chicken]

Just now, Frustration said:

Nale supports Odium, not the Singers, and without Regals or Fused what are they going to do? And on top of that the Fused are in chanrge and the singers obey them.

The singers HATE humans, there not just going to allow themselves to be ruled by the Alethi. Plus were will the Singers go? The Vedens and Iriali probably didn't join odium so that they would have to accept Singer refugees. The with draw from Alethkar and Herdaz will leave a power vacuum that the vedens will be all to happy to exploit. The hardest part would be reconquering Alethkar, the local "lords" won't give up their power without a fight. 

[Frustration]

Just now, Green chicken said:

The singers HATE humans, there not just going to allow themselves to be ruled by the Alethi. Plus were will the Singers go? The Vedens and Iriali probably didn't join odium so that they would have to accept Singer refugees. The with draw from Alethkar and Herdaz will leave a power vacuum that the vedens will be all to happy to exploit. The hardest part would be reconquering Alethkar, the local "lords" won't give up their power without a fight. 

Singers Obey the fused, the Fused obey Odium,

Odium says leave Alethkar, Fused say leave Alethkar, Singers follow.

How do you think they got them to Kholinar?

Vedens and Irali don't have a choice, they will follow the rules or they will be punished, Skybreakers are still around.

[Green chicken]

24 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Singers Obey the fused, the Fused obey Odium,

Odium says leave Alethkar, Fused say leave Alethkar, Singers follow.

How do you think they got them to Kholinar?

Vedens and Irali don't have a choice, they will follow the rules or they will be punished, Skybreakers are still around.

The Vedens could defect and join the radiants, Taravangian promised them that odium will reward them if they support odium, it won't take long for the Vedens to realize that odium is screwing them over. They can go to the radiants for protection, their betrayal was very minor, the coalition would be happy if they regained control of Jah Keved. 

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, Green chicken said:

The Vedens could defect and join the radiants, Taravangian promised them that odium will reward them if they support odium, it won't take long for the Vedens to realize that odium is screwing them over. They can go to the radiants for protection, their betrayal was very minor, the coalition would be happy if they regained control of Jah Keved. 

Jah Keved was not part of the deal and the territory would not be accepted.

And besides what they want doesn't matter.

[Green chicken]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Jah Keved was not part of the deal and the territory would not be accepted.

And besides what they want doesn't matter.

The coalition didn't make the deal, Dalinar made the deal. Dalinar must uphold the deal, the coalition doesn't need to up hold the deal. The windrunners, can and almost certainly will help the Vedens. The Vedens probably will join the coalition before the contest in order to avoid the possibility of the singers migrating to Jah Keved. 

[Frustration]

Just now, Green chicken said:

The coalition didn't make the deal, Dalinar made the deal. Dalinar must uphold the deal, the coalition doesn't need to up hold the deal. The windrunners, can and almost certainly will help the Vedens. The Vedens probably will join the coalition before the contest in order to avoid the possibility of the singers migrating to Jah Keved. 

I disagree but we're moving away from the discussion.

What does that prove?

[Green chicken]

Just now, Frustration said:

I disagree but we're moving away from the discussion.

What does that prove?

That Taravangian has nothing to gain from the contest, and that he has a lot to lose. It will also be very difficult for Brandon to add tension to story with such low stakes. If there is no loophole, then there is no need for book 5, all Brandon would have had to do is to add an additional 30 chapters to Row, and call it a day.

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, Green chicken said:

That Taravangian has nothing to gain from the contest, and that he has a lot to lose. It will also be very difficult for Brandon to add tension to story with such low stakes. If there is no loophole, then there is no need for book 5, all Brandon would have had to do is to add an additional 30 chapters to Row, and call it a day.

Brandon's stories have no tension to begin with but whatever.

We have Dalinar's training Szeth's flashbacks, interleuds, finding BAM, and any extra plots Brandon feels like adding. There is more than enough for another book.

And on top of this how does the posibility of a loophole necesitate a Child Champion, that has far more drawbacks than advantages, and doesn't even garuntee a breech of contract?

[Green chicken]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Brandon's stories have no tension to begin with but whatever.

We have Dalinar's training Szeth's flashbacks, interleuds, finding BAM, and any extra plots Brandon feels like adding. There is more than enough for another book.

And on top of this how does the posibility of a loophole necesitate a Child Champion, that has far more drawbacks than advantages, and doesn't even garuntee a breech of contract?

It's the end of a arc, all the main plots have to come together, that's why it can't be a "normal" contest, BAM has to fit into the plot. The child is a metaphor, it's not an actual child. 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Green chicken said:

It's the end of a arc, all the main plots have to come together, that's why it can't be a "normal" contest, BAM has to fit into the plot. The child is a metaphor, it's not an actual child. 

If it's not an actual child what are you arguing for?

[Green chicken]

Just now, Frustration said:

If it's not an actual child what are you arguing for?

Some random 70 year old man who can't walk, without a wheelchair.

[Frustration]

Just now, Green chicken said:

Some random 70 year old man who can't walk, without a wheelchair.

Nice, I'm arguing against the people who actually support a child most commonly Gavilnor being Odium's champion.

[Forms of mind]

6 hours ago, Green chicken said:

Odium is less invested than Cultivation, and therefore stronger.

I will nitpick this specific statement because amount of investment is not tied to strenght. As Harmony who has two polar powers says he cannot direct his streght due to the will of the shards in opposition. As to the argument

 

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Nice, I'm arguing against the people who actually support a child most commonly Gavilnor being Odium's champion.

I agree. Gavinor being odium champion seems unrealistic. Taravangian would not throw the fight unless he is aiming for something different. So if he uses Gavinor then he would have to do so to strike at a different target. If gavinor dies then Adolin replaces Gavinorn as heir. It doesn't help Odium.