Your opinions on the Child Champion theory

[Frustration]

So I've seen doesens of different opinions on Child theories, and so I decided to poll for public opinion.

[Bejarden]

I do believe that the duel will be at the end of part 2 with Gavinor as Odiums Champion.

It will be a nice full circle for Dalinar bringing him back to the Rift where he refused to kill a child there.

Gavinor will call him a monster for what he’s done and then Dalinar will finally accept responsibility and repercussions for what he’s done and not just be a huge hypocrite about it.

He will then swear the 4th ideal and then Classic Sanderson twist...

Thats all I got 

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I do believe that the duel will be at the end of part 2 with Gavinor as Odiums Champion.

It will be a nice full circle for Dalinar bringing him back to the Rift where he refused to kill a child there.

Gavinor will call him a monster for what he’s done and then Dalinar will finally accept responsibility and repercussions for what he’s done and not just be a huge hypocrite about it.

He will then swear the 4th ideal and then Classic Sanderson twist...

Thats all I got 

That sounds like Oathbringer.

Edited April 25, 2021 by Frustration

[Karger]

It won't happen.  Taravangian clearly stated that this has to work no matter what Dalinar chooses.  The idea is to checkmate him.  Placing a child forward would force Dalinar to sacrifice several valuable peaces but if he went through with it Dalinar's victory would be total.  For Taravangian to do this he would have to be absolutely certain that Dalinar won't go through with it.  Sure it seems like a great plan at first but if you think about it you are essentially depending on Dalinar acting a certain way.  Given that Taravangian made the mistake of underestimating him once already him doing it a second time seems rather foolish.

[+mdross81]

I’m not a fan of the child champion theory. I think it’s mostly based on the “suckling child” death rattle. I’m skeptical of that for two main reasons:

1) it has to be a willing champion and it’s hard to imagine a suckling child having the agency to be a willing champion

2) there are a lot of death rattles that are still unexplained, so I don’t think that the meaning of that one has to be revealed in Book 5

[RedBlue]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

Taravangian clearly stated that this has to work no matter what Dalinar chooses.  The idea is to checkmate him.

This is why I’m not sold on the child champion theory. It would put Dalinar in a painful position, sure, but that doesn’t guarantee a win for Odium. 

Also - suppose Odium does go with a child champion, and the plan works. Suppose Odium manipulates Dalinar to refuse to fight the other champion. What then? Will Dalinar and Gavinor (or some other kid) camp out on the roof of Urithiru for the foreseeable future? Maybe Dalinar dies, and Odium wins the contest? Odium would still be stuck in the Rosharan system, per the contract.

[Halyo_Alex]

12 hours ago, RedBlue said:

Also - suppose Odium does go with a child champion, and the plan works. Suppose Odium manipulates Dalinar to refuse to fight the other champion. What then? Will Dalinar and Gavinor (or some other kid) camp out on the roof of Urithiru for the foreseeable future? Maybe Dalinar dies, and Odium wins the contest? Odium would still be stuck in the Rosharan system, per the contract.

This is exactly the problem. Odium needs a third option not covered in the contract. Probably a draw wherein both champions die in the same moment. I can't exactly see a child surprise-shardblading Dalinar through the spine/etc while they're dying.

[Leuthie]

What if Taravangian as Odium is the suckling child? The analogy would be apt considering he'd be 10 days into being a Shard when the Contest occurs. Dalinar gets the chance to take Taravangian out entirely, and chooses not to...

Gavinor as champion is likely. The character exists for a reason. While that reason could easily be in the back 5, it could also be in this Contest. A challenge that Dalinar can't win.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

I don't think it's super implausible, there does seem to be foreshadowing for it, but it just feels super anticlimactic and frankly silly to me because of the lack of any benefit it would actually give Odium. I don't see why it'd be a "draw", it'd just last a stupid long time before ending. And Taravangian was happy for the war to end. Putting a child forward and waiting for Dalinar to die of old age or something isn't going to free him. It's just going to let him prolong the war that he doesn't even want to prolong.

(I also don't see how T would get Gavinor to agree to try and fight and kill Dalinar, but T is a manipulator if nothing else, so he might be able to do it.)

[Leuthie]

16 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

(I also don't see how T would get Gavinor to agree to try and fight and kill Dalinar, but T is a manipulator if nothing else, so he might be able to do it.)

Gavinor has been groomed since birth. He was being obviously groomed in the throne room when we first see him, being mentally tortured by void spren (if I'm remembering right). He's been cultivating his Hate for those who killed his father as he's grown. All T has to do is convince him that Dalinar is responsible for his father's (and mother's) death. "If only Dalinar hadn't taken everyone to Urithiru, your father and mother would still be alive and well in Kholinar"

But like you, I don't see the pay-off there. I see Gavinor as a back 5 antagonist, or a back 5 protagonist with backsliding issues.

Then again, there are too many important Kholin characters. Removing a few before the back 5 starts would be prudent.

Edited April 27, 2021 by Leuthie

[Honorless]

I agree with the observations made in this post by Jofwu

But I can see why this theory's so popular. The Death Rattles really tie it all up. I think it's possible but I don't really like it that much. I think it's more likely that El is going to be the champion, it seems heavily foreshadowed in Rhythm of War

[Szeth_Pancakes]

I really, really do not like this theory. Firstly, I think it would be extremely anticlimactic if Dalinar walks to the top of Urithiru, and Gavinor is standing there, and Dalinar's all like "oh noooo I forefeit." (I've also seen the theory that it might be Adin being thrown around.) And, secondly, T would be smart enough not to do this. He knows that this comes at a huge risk - if Dalinar pushes through it and follows through with killing Gav, Odium would be screwed. He needs to checkmate Dalinar - make it so that whatever he does, he can't win. 

[Bejarden]

4 minutes ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

I really, really do not like this theory. Firstly, I think it would be extremely anticlimactic if Dalinar walks to the top of Urithiru, and Gavinor is standing there, and Dalinar's all like "oh noooo I forefeit." (I've also seen the theory that it might be Adin being thrown around.) And, secondly, T would be smart enough not to do this. He knows that this comes at a huge risk - if Dalinar pushes through it and follows through with killing Gav, Odium would be screwed. He needs to checkmate Dalinar - make it so that whatever he does, he can't win. 

He literally had a conversation where Dalinar said he would refuse to kill innocent people to save others from dying. ( I’m pretty sure that’s what the Conversation is about)    He would be completely sure that Dalinar wouldn’t kill Gavinor

And he was present for the death rattle “So the night will reign for the choice of honor is life”

Why would TOdium let everything lie on a duel that could go either way. 
With a child you checkmate Dalinar and either way Forfeit Or suicide Odium wins

[Sp00ks]

7 hours ago, Honorless said:

I agree with the observations made in this post by Jofwu

But I can see why this theory's so popular. The Death Rattles really tie it all up. I think it's possible but I don't really like it that much. I think it's more likely that El is going to be the champion, it seems heavily foreshadowed in Rhythm of War

In addition to Jofwu's points on how it doesn't work narratively, it also doesn't work logically. I know others have made this point before, but even if Dalinar absolutely refused to kill Gavinor or whomever, its still a fight to the death. This is problematic in two ways. First of all, Gavinor's a kid, sure, but he isn't an idiot. He probably grew up hearing stories about the dreaded Blackthorn. Why the heck would he ever agree to fight a man like that? Even with all the Odium influence in the world, surely he would be too afraid to agree. And even if he did, how would he win, even if Dalinar won't kill him? There's no way he would just let himself be killed, he swore "...Life before Death". He can't give up, again, its a fight to the death. Do they just wait until one of them dies of thirst? Just doesn't make sense

[Szeth_Pancakes]

13 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He literally had a conversation where Dalinar said he would refuse to kill innocent people to save others from dying. ( I’m pretty sure that’s what the Conversation is about)    He would be completely sure that Dalinar wouldn’t kill Gavinor

And he was present for the death rattle “So the night will reign for the choice of honor is life”

Why would TOdium let everything lie on a duel that could go either way. 
With a child you checkmate Dalinar and either way Forfeit Or suicide Odium wins

True, but he isn’t 100% positive that Dalinar wouldn’t actually do this. Also, what if Dalinar is incapacitated before the contest and has to send someone else, like Jasnah or Szeth, as his champion? Neither Szeth nor Jasnah would have any problems with killing Gav for the greater good.

[Bejarden]

he wants to avenge his father no matter the costs. 
 And Dalinar letting Gavinor dying of thirst is the same as killing him so he won’t do that. 
He will either forfeit, or kill himself ( maybe with Nightblood...)

I totally get this theory is unpopular here, I’ll stick with it and I’ll enjoy the book whatever happens.

@Szeth_Pancakes Two things 1: Part of the contract is that both Chanpions are left unharmed 

2: If Dalinar sends Jasnah this will be the same as killing Gavinor for him

Edited April 27, 2021 by Bejardin1250

[Sp00ks]

1 minute ago, Bejardin1250 said:

he wants to avenge his father no matter the costs. 
 And Dalinar letting Gavinor dying of thirst is the same as killing him so he won’t do that. 
He will either forfeit, or kill himself ( maybe with Nightblood...)

I totally get this theory is unpopular here, I’ll stick with it and I’ll enjoy the book whatever happens.

Can you even forfeit though? It's pretty explicitly a fight to the death, no? Also, what would convince Gavinor to fight his own uncle?

[Bejarden]

Just now, Sp00ks said:

Can you even forfeit though? It's pretty explicitly a fight to the death, no? Also, what would convince Gavinor to fight his own uncle?

If he believes that Dalinar is the reason his father is dead.

Saying “I refuse to fight” might suffice. If not I could see him killing himself with Nightblood

[Sp00ks]

3 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

If he believes that Dalinar is the reason his father is dead.

I don't know, Gavinor didn't really strike me as someone who loved Elhokar that much. Sure, he loved and looked up to his dad, but he also seems to look up to Dalinar. And, he only met Elhokar a few times in his life, since most of the King's time was spent on the Shattered Plains. Plus, he saw Moash, clearly an enemy soldier, take down his father. Not to mention he's a little kid who would probably be way too afraid to fight the Blackthorn

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He literally had a conversation where Dalinar said he would refuse to kill innocent people to save others from dying. ( I’m pretty sure that’s what the Conversation is about)    He would be completely sure that Dalinar wouldn’t kill Gavinor

And he was present for the death rattle “So the night will reign for the choice of honor is life”

Why would TOdium let everything lie on a duel that could go either way. 
With a child you checkmate Dalinar and either way Forfeit Or suicide Odium wins

 

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

he wants to avenge his father no matter the costs. 
 And Dalinar letting Gavinor dying of thirst is the same as killing him so he won’t do that. 
He will either forfeit, or kill himself ( maybe with Nightblood...)

I totally get this theory is unpopular here, I’ll stick with it and I’ll enjoy the book whatever happens.

@Szeth_Pancakes Two things 1: Part of the contract is that both Chanpions are left unharmed 

2: If Dalinar sends Jasnah this will be the same as killing Gavinor for him

 

57 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

If he believes that Dalinar is the reason his father is dead.

Saying “I refuse to fight” might suffice. If not I could see him killing himself with Nightblood

 

That would be the lamest ending Brandon has ever done,

Even if we assume Brandon is thinking about doing it, which he isn't, it won't make it past the Alpha readers.

[Bejarden]

Well I’m glad to see someone has a different opinion than me!

Along with many, many other people

 

Edited April 28, 2021 by Bejardin1250

[Frustration]

14 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Well I’m glad to see someone has a different opinion than me!

Along with many, many other people

 

Please stop being nice. 

You're making me feel bad.

[Jofwu]

On 4/27/2021 at 6:56 PM, Bejardin1250 said:

He literally had a conversation where Dalinar said he would refuse to kill innocent people to save others from dying. ( I’m pretty sure that’s what the Conversation is about)    He would be completely sure that Dalinar wouldn’t kill Gavinor

[...]

With a child you checkmate Dalinar and either way Forfeit Or suicide Odium wins

Dalinar isn't as extreme about this conviction as he pretends to be, in my opinion. Dalinar's actions effectively result in the death of innocent people on a daily basis. They're at war. By continuing to fight against Odium and the Fused, he is getting innocent people killed whether he likes it or not. Yet he fights on. His morality is not as black and white as he appears in that passage.

But there's an even deeper flaw to this argument, in my opinion.

If Gavinor, or any child, accepts the role of Odium's champion... they're not innocent anymore. They just joined the enemy forces that Dalinar is actively at war with.

[Green chicken]

1 hour ago, Jofwu said:

Dalinar isn't as extreme about this conviction as he pretends to be, in my opinion. Dalinar's actions effectively result in the death of innocent people on a daily basis. They're at war. By continuing to fight against Odium and the Fused, he is getting innocent people killed whether he likes it or not. Yet he fights on. His morality is not as black and white as he appears in that passage.

But there's an even deeper flaw to this argument, in my opinion.

If Gavinor, or any child, accepts the role of Odium's champion... they're not innocent anymore. They just joined the enemy forces that Dalinar is actively at war with.

Not necessarily, if Taravangian grabs a random child, starts torturing the child, temporarily stops torturing the child, and tells the child that if he doesn't want to be tortured he will have to be his champion, the child would be innocent. Plus, the child might not be aware of the fact that the fight is to the death, for example Taravangian could tell them that it is a wrestling match. If you look at the epilogue, you can clearly see that Taravangian doesn't care about the "spirit of the contract", Taravangian's only goal is to "save them all", which is hell of a lot harder to do when you're trapped in the Rosharan system.   

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Green chicken said:

Not necessarily, if Taravangian grabs a random child, starts torturing the child, temporarily stops torturing the child, and tells the child that if he doesn't want to be tortured he will have to be his champion, the child would be innocent. Plus, the child might not be aware of the fact that the fight is to the death, for example Taravangian could tell them that it is a wrestling match. If you look at the epilogue, you can clearly see that Taravangian doesn't care about the "spirit of the contract", Taravangian's only goal is to "save them all", which is hell of a lot harder to do when you're trapped in the Rosharan system.   

Then that wouldn't be a willing champion.