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In the fine print?


glasssd

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(I'm sure this has already been asked, but my search kung fu is weak.)

 On p.1216 Hoid/Cephandrius/Wit says: 

Quote

“Was it my diction that clued you in, my keen bargaining abilities, or the fact that I included my name in the text?”

With the emphasis, I actually expected to find his name hidden in the contract text (especially since it was sculpted with precision), which is on p.1079.

Quote

“A contract,” she said, turning from him and reading the paper. “For Dalinar’s contest with Odium.” Wit had undoubtedly sculpted each word with precision. “If Dalinar wins, Odium retreats to Damnation for a thousand years. If Odium wins, he must remain in the system, but gets Roshar to do with as he pleases. The monarchs will submit to his rule—as will the Radiants who follow Dalinar.”

Is the Wit in "with" the reference?
or is there another name that I'm not aware of, such as Andy (thousand years) or something more subtle like Salt (wins odium, lol)?
or maybe I'm making too much of it?

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1 hour ago, glasssd said:

With the emphasis, I actually expected to find his name hidden in the contract text (especially since it was sculpted with precision), which is on p.1079.

Pretty sure this mention of Wit’s name being in the contract just Wit referring to the line they added naming him a contractual liaison of Dalinar to afford him protection. 

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5 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

What’s more interesting is that Hoid is seemingly unaware that Dalinar and Rayse tossed his contract...

What makes you say that 1) they scrapped it, and 2) Hoid is unaware?

It seems that the line protecting Hoid is still applicable even though it wasn’t part of the final discussion of terms. Because Todium seems to understand that he can’t hurt Hoid (unless he’s just showing restraint and faking like he can’t harm him).

I took it that Odium basically accepted the framework and ancillary portions of Hoid’s contract but haggled over the key terms: the results if each side wins. And there, Odium is still chained to the Rosharan system, win or lose.

And wouldn’t Hoid have spoken with Dalinar and Jasnah after the negotiations? Or did he take off before then and I missed it?

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30 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

What makes you say that 1) they scrapped it, and 2) Hoid is unaware?

It seems that the line protecting Hoid is still applicable even though it wasn’t part of the final discussion of terms. Because Todium seems to understand that he can’t hurt Hoid (unless he’s just showing restraint and faking like he can’t harm him).

I took it that Odium basically accepted the framework and ancillary portions of Hoid’s contract but haggled over the key terms: the results if each side wins. And there, Odium is still chained to the Rosharan system, win or lose.

And wouldn’t Hoid have spoken with Dalinar and Jasnah after the negotiations? Or did he take off before then and I missed it?

They both agreed they weren’t using Hoid’s contract and would create their own terms. So I don’t believe the original contract is relevant at all; they used a different one.

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30 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

They both agreed they weren’t using Hoid’s contract and would create their own terms. So I don’t believe the original contract is relevant at all; they used a different one.

Hmm. I didn’t get that impression and I don’t see where they say they are scrapping it. Seems to me they used Hoid’s contract as a starting point from which to negotiate. Odium pointed out certain terms that he couldn’t agree to from that proposal and they went back and forth from there. I mean he does “wave dismissively” at it, but the next line is about how he doesn’t want any more talk of delays or half measures, meaning they scrap the 1,000 year portion of the original. But otherwise the crux of it seems the same. 

Edited by mdross81
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On 4/27/2021 at 6:04 PM, CROSSENuUP said:

I am curious to which of Hoid's names he used in the contract. Does Hoid really even have a true name anymore?

Per Brandon, he'd argue that all of his names are 'true' but yes, he does have an original name. Given that all of the Shards seem to have known him as Cephandrius Maxtori, that's the name he would have used. Rayse even uses that name several times when negotiating with Dalinar making it pretty clear that's how the contract named him.

Edited by Weltall
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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...

We never see the contract text. She may not even be reading a section out, just paraphrasing or summarising.

Also, the Shards seem to have a general prohibition against directly interfering with actual people that aren't specifically placed in their power. Odium couldn't act directly against anyone, nevermind Hoid, and none of them can sense the hearts and minds of people (without a spike). Nevertheless, Hoid is convinced he would be destroyed if discovered - so either the contract shields him, or it removed whatever special condition or Connection made him vulnerable.

I like the idea that:

  1. The agreement doesn't actually protect him. Dalinar and Rayse made no mention of him in their final terms, or indeed showed any intention of doing so.
  2. He's "safe" anyway because he's not Connected to the Vessel of Odium anymore. When Rayse died, so did his problem.

So Hoid is right in thinking he's protected, but wrong about the mechanism. Or he just knows what's up. Or he was lying to Jasnah.

Edited by ElMonoEstupendo
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  • 1 month later...

This seems to be the whole of the references in the book to that line: 

Quote

“We’ll add a line to the contract,” Wit said, “naming me as a contractual liaison for Honor—whom Dalinar represents. This will protect me from Odium’s direct attacks for the life of the contract.”

Quote

“Cephandrius,” Odium spat. “Ever the rat. No matter where I go, there he is, scratching in the wall. Burrowing into my strongholds. He could have been a god, yet he insists on living in the dirt.”
“Do you accept these terms?” Dalinar asked.”

And then just a few lines later:

Quote

“Dalinar pressed. “What happens, Odium, if you break your word. ”
“Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void. But that is not going to happen, and I am not going to break my word. Because if I did, it would create a hole in my soul—which would let Cultivation kill me.
“I am no fool, and you are a man of honor. We will both approach this contest in good faith, Dalinar. This isn’t some deal with a Voidbringer from your myths, where one tricks the other with some silly twist of language. A willing champion from each of us and a fight to the death. They will meet on the top of Urithiru. No tricks, no lies.”

It sounds like he’s accepting the terms, with modifications to the results only.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 7/13/2021 at 3:58 PM, Jondesu said:

This seems to be the whole of the references in the book to that line: 

And then just a few lines later:

It sounds like he’s accepting the terms, with modifications to the results only.

It seems Taravangian would have taken much more aggressive action against hoid had he been able.

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On 4 June 2021 at 8:35 PM, ElMonoEstupendo said:

Also, the Shards seem to have a general prohibition against directly interfering with actual people that aren't specifically placed in their power.

I wouldn't say so, in general. Odium is somewhat restrained by Honor's bindings on him, as mentioned in @Jondesu's third quote, so it is true for him, but for Ruin, a person being psychically imbalanced was enough to allow interference.

 

On 4 June 2021 at 8:35 PM, ElMonoEstupendo said:

Odium couldn't act directly against anyone, nevermind Hoid, and none of them can sense the hearts and minds of people (without a spike).

Preservation did hear people's thoughts, without spikes. Admittedly, there was a particularly strong Connection between the Shards  of Scadrial and the humans they created, so it may not have been possible for a Shard that settled on a planet where intelligent population existed before the breaking of Adonalsium. We still don't know that for sure, though. Odium is clearly a Shard that can talk to people, once they become sufficiently attuned to him, but not hear their thoughts. Honor may have been the same - hence the custom of burning glyphs to tell him people's concerns. But Cultivation may be the one who hears - in fact, it seems most likely that she is, because she only talks to people in her valley where she manifests - and that, only very rarely. 

 

On 4 June 2021 at 8:35 PM, ElMonoEstupendo said:

He's "safe" anyway because he's not Connected to the Vessel of Odium anymore. When Rayse died, so did his problem..

I wonder what Honor's restrictions on Odium using his powers "on most individuals" entailed. I mean, a lot of people died in the Everstorm, and he directed that. So, smiting Hoid may not be out of question even for TOdium. He may be just prevented from talking to people uninvited and yanking them into his visions, unless they are already attuned to him and/or welcome it.

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