Shards: Ascension, merging, and carry-ons

[+Invested_Spaghetti]

Hello everybody, I'm a newbie to the forums and want to share in on some fan theories and cool Cosmere discussions.

I was recently listening to a great podcast, Cosmere Conversations, and it got me thinking...

Shard Carry-Ons
When beings seize the power of the Shards and ascend to become Vessels, their immediate belongings like clothing and weapons accompany them into some pocket dimension or into the Spiritual Realm. Leras had a knife on him during Secret History. Rayse, Leras, Ati, and Vin materialize with their original clothing once they died. Sazed ascended with his metalminds and was even able to access them. I was incorrect. He tapped them just before ascending and they dropped to the ground. Thanks @LewsTherinTelescope!

So, what other carry-on luggage can you bring along on the ride to godhood?

• Shardblade/Shardplate?
• Bonded spren/Unmade?
• Nightblood?
• Hemalurgic spikes?
• God metals/Essences?
• Pancakes?
• Anti-Light?

Restrictions & Resistance
So are there any restrictions? Could Investiture or Connection play a role? We see that Vin was unable to ascend until she removed her earring (hemalurgic spike). But Sazed was able to ascend with his heavily Invested metalminds. Perhaps the flavor of Investiture is key? Vin could not seize the power of Preservation (end-positive) because she was holding the power of Ruin (end-negative). Sazed was able to seize the power of both Preservation and Ruin along with his metalminds because Feruchemy is of both Preservation and Ruin (end-neutral)! I'm not sure if there is a connection with Connection here (at least in the relationship between the Invested items and the Shard), since Vin and Sazed would be very Connected with their respective items. Regarding Nightblood near the end of RoW, it's possible (but not explicitly stated) that the sword could have fallen away or out of Taravangian's grasp before he ascended. I don't think Taravangian would have been able to ascend with Nightblood in hand anyway...but perhaps if there was a similar scenario with Endowment instead of Odium...

My hypothesis so far based on observations: Attempting to seize the power of a Shard while holding the Investiture of another Shard will be met with resistance.

Shard Merging Is Harder Than It Looks
We have witnessed only a single Shard merger and it was as easy as picking up the power of both Shards at the same time, right? But could this have been accomplished under different circumstances? Remember the profound resistance that Vin (as Preservation) experiences when trying to attack Ruin? Almost like opposite pushing the same ends of a magnet together. She eventually does attack him in full force, but kills them both in the process - no merging takes place. Did the end-neutral nature of Sazed's Invested metalminds act as a catalyst for the merge? What if he was instead an Allomancer or was spiked or didn't have any relevant Investiture at all? Could a spiked Allomancer take and merge both Shards? I know there is a lot of intentional poetic symbology in Mistborn (Ruin + Preservation = Harmony), but perhaps balance is exactly what's needed for any successful Shard merger.

Balanced Investiture
We are introduced to balanced or stabilized Investiture combinations in the form of Shardblades (Honor metal + Cultivation metal), Towerlight (Stormlight + Cultivation light), and Warlight (Stormlight + Voidlight). I have a sneaking suspicion that these discoveries in Investiture will have profound importance if these Shards are ever going to merge. We will probably see Navani experimenting with combining all three lights in the next book. Considering Raboniel's doubtful comment on the amount of Anti-Light it would take to destroy Odium, I don't think this path would be pursued.

Revised hypothesis: Attempting to seize the power of a Shard will be met with resistance while holding the Investiture of another Shard. Merging multiple Shards will be met with resistance unless holding the combined Investiture of these Shards.

Now Some Hot Takes

1. Navani becomes/creates the catalyst to merge Honor, Cultivation, and damnation, maybe even Odium!
2. Hoid has been collecting bits and pieces of Investiture all over the Cosmere. What if he possessed a small bit of Investiture from each Shard and was able to become a Vessel with all these on his person? Would this create a mini-Adonalsium? A "Shard" that isn't actually bound by any singular Intent and has more agency? I don't know but I wanna believe!

Sorry for the long rant. Please, share with me your thoughts on all this! Has anyone else here posted some similar nonsense?

 

Edited April 24, 2021 by Invested_Spaghetti
i was wrong about some stuff =p

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, Invested_Spaghetti said:

Hello everybody, I'm a newbie to the forums and want to share in on some fan theories and cool Cosmere discussions.

Hey, welcome to the forums! Glad to have you here!

50 minutes ago, Invested_Spaghetti said:

But Sazed was able to ascend with his heavily Invested metalminds.

Note that he actually tapped those right before Ascension, if you're referring to the copperminds. The actual metal all was explicitly left behind:

Quote

He slammed his arms into the twin mists and seized the powers offered to him. He drew them in, feeling them infuse his body, making him burn. His flesh and bones evaporated, but as they did, he tapped his copperminds, dumping their entire contents into his expanding consciousness.

The copperminds, now empty, dropped with his rings to the pile of blue corpses beside the bodies of Vin, Elend, and Ruin’s nameless body. Sazed opened eyes as large as the world itself, drawing in power that latticed all of creation.

I also don't really agree with labeling Shards themselves as "end-negative", "end-neutral", "end-positive", etc. Even with magic systems this is not really a fully accurate way of categorizing them. With a Shard, the Shard is infinite and stretches across the whole universe, and Investiture can be neither created nor destroyed, so there's not really anything entering or exiting the "system". So they'd all be "end-neutral", technically.

1 hour ago, Invested_Spaghetti said:

but perhaps balance is exactly what's needed for any successful Shard merger.

Balance of a sort is definitely needed, yeah. Sazed was apparently pretty much just super evenly Connected to both (don't ask why Sazed is more evenly Connected than other people who went through similar things, I don't know, I think Brandon just wanted him to be special xD):

Quote

He’d always seen these powers as opposites, yet as they swirled around Sazed it seemed that they actually belonged to one another. “How?” he whispered. “How is he Connected to them both, so evenly? Why not just Preservation?”

“He has changed, this last year,” Elend said. “Ruin is more than death and destruction. It is peace with these things.”

Brandon elaborates a very slight amount here:

Quote

Lhyonnaes (paraphrased)

So, at the end of Mistborn Era 1, Sazed takes up both [Preservation] and Ruin, Shards which are obviously fairly diametrically opposed. Secret History implies that Sazed is able to hold both of them at once because of (for lack of a better term) who he is, and therefore implies that other people might not be able to do the same. Is that true? What would happen if someone tried to take up multiple shards and didn't have those qualifications?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Sazed was uniquely able, yes. Usually there would be an imbalance favoring one shard, which would override or push out the other.

[....]

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)

 

1 hour ago, Invested_Spaghetti said:

We are introduced to balanced or stabilized Investiture combinations in the form of Shardblades (Honor metal + Cultivation metal), Towerlight (Stormlight + Cultivation light), and Warlight (Stormlight + Voidlight).

I'm super curious how the spren work tbh. R&P required a perfect balance, but the spren are all different ratios. Is it just because R&P are so opposed, and most Shards can merge in various ratios? Was something special done to make the spren? Etc

1 hour ago, Invested_Spaghetti said:

I have a sneaking suspicion that these discoveries in Investiture will have profound importance if these Shards are ever going to merge. We will probably see Navani experimenting with combining all three lights in the next book.

Agreed. I'm not sure if it'll necessarily be much in the next book, because it's already looking to have a lot, but I think it'd feel odd for working it out to have to wait until after the ten-year timegap, so maybe it will be next book after all.

1 hour ago, Invested_Spaghetti said:

Attempting to seize the power of a Shard will be met with resistance while holding the Investiture of another Shard.

I think this is pretty plausible, with the whole "Investiture resists other Investiture" mechanic going on.

1 hour ago, Invested_Spaghetti said:

Merging multiple Shards will be met with resistance unless holding the combined Investiture of these Shards.

I find this unlikely, since as mentioned he didn't actually have metalminds taken with him when he Ascended. But it's an interesting theory and had the metalminds gone with him, I'd probably like this.

1 hour ago, Invested_Spaghetti said:

Navani becomes/creates the catalyst to merge Honor, Cultivation, and damnation, maybe even Odium!

I'm still not sure whether I expect this or not. On one hand, it seems to be hinted at, but on the other, a.) I don't think he'll want to just repeat Mistborn, and b.) Dalinar's conversations with Jasnah to me are pointing more towards an arc of relinquishing central power to a broader body, and I think an Ascension and melding of the Roshards (no matter who does it) would interact kind of weirdly with this. I think it's very much a real possibility, though, and not an unlikely one.

1 hour ago, Invested_Spaghetti said:

Hoid has been collecting bits and pieces of Investiture all over the Cosmere. What if he possessed a small bit of Investiture from each Shard and was able to become a Vessel with all these on his person? Would this create a mini-Adonalsium?

I think it's very plausible he's trying to do something like that, yeah. I don't love the theory, mostly because I'm more on the #SplinterAllShards train rather than the #UnshatterAdonalsium one lol, but I definitely don't disagree with anyone who says the books might be pointing towards that. Purely my personal preference.

1 hour ago, Invested_Spaghetti said:

A "Shard" that isn't actually bound by any singular Intent and has more agency?

Hm, I don't think Ascending to a single Shard would ever manage this, no matter what magic systems you have, since the Intents within the Shards are much larger than whatever you have on you, but it's possible you could theoretically gather a large mass from all of them and pick it all up. Personally, I'm not sure if it'd work or if it'd just tear you apart from all the conflicts, but it might be possible.

[+Invested_Spaghetti]

51 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Hey, welcome to the forums! Glad to have you here!

Thanks! Great to be here!

51 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Note that he actually tapped those right before Ascension, if you're referring to the copperminds. The actual metal all was explicitly left behind:

Drat, you're right. I was very emotional during that scene and missed that =p

51 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I also don't really agree with labeling Shards themselves as "end-negative", "end-neutral", "end-positive", etc. Even with magic systems this is not really a fully accurate way of categorizing them. With a Shard, the Shard is infinite and stretches across the whole universe, and Investiture can be neither created nor destroyed, so there's not really anything entering or exiting the "system". So they'd all be "end-neutral", technically.

I'm actually just trying to describe the different Investitures within the Scadrial system; the powers of the Shards in relation to each-other, not in terms of the Cosmere as a whole. To be fair, Brandon did say this terminology is a bit iffy even in terms of Scadrial. I thought it would be a simple way to get my point across.

51 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Lhyonnaes (paraphrased)

So, at the end of Mistborn Era 1, Sazed takes up both [Preservation] and Ruin, Shards which are obviously fairly diametrically opposed. Secret History implies that Sazed is able to hold both of them at once because of (for lack of a better term) who he is, and therefore implies that other people might not be able to do the same. Is that true? What would happen if someone tried to take up multiple shards and didn't have those qualifications?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Sazed was uniquely able, yes. Usually there would be an imbalance favoring one shard, which would override or push out the other.

[....]

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)

Sick quote, good find, great points!

51 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I'm super curious how the spren work tbh. R&P required a perfect balance, but the spren are all different ratios. Is it just because R&P are so opposed, and most Shards can merge in various ratios? Was something special done to make the spren? Etc

Sja-anat can corrupt spren with Odiums Investiture. So if she corrupted an Honor Spren or a Cultivation Spren...

51 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I find this unlikely, since as mentioned he didn't actually have metalminds taken with him when he Ascended. But it's an interesting theory and had the metalminds gone with him, I'd probably like this.

Yeah, it's probably more based on Intent now that I'm thinking. Looking back at Sazed through Era 1, I would argue that he started his journey with the Intent of Preservation, but then ventured down a darker path after losing Tindwyl. He was in a bad place after that, lingering in the mindset of someone closer Ruin? Hmm...

51 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

a.) I don't think he'll want to just repeat Mistborn, and b.) Dalinar's conversations with Jasnah to me are pointing more towards an arc of relinquishing central power to a broader body

Yeah, you're probably right. Brandon usually shoots for the more subtle and unexpected. Would love to see powers evenly distributed over Roshar.

51 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Roshards

lol, love this

51 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I think it's very plausible he's trying to do something like that, yeah. I don't love the theory, mostly because I'm more on the #SplinterAllShards train rather than the #UnshatterAdonalsium one lol, but I definitely don't disagree with anyone who says the books might be pointing towards that. Purely my personal preference.

Honestly, I'm leaning towards #SplinterAllShards as well. I wonder if combining all Investitures into a single item/essence would give the wielder some sort of power over a Shard.

 

I wonder if any metal can be brought during Ascension. Maybe it's just Invested stuff that needs to be left behind. What was Fuzz's knife made out of? Fuzz's knife was described as having a bone handle. Makes me think about Warbreaker and BioChromatic Breath; it was always easier to animate bones and objects that resembled parts right? I don't know where I'm going with this...

Edited April 24, 2021 by Invested_Spaghetti

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, Invested_Spaghetti said:

Drat, you're right. I was very emotional during that scene and missed that =p

Totally understandable, it's like two minor lines in the middle of the biggest scene in the series

I think I've made this exact mistake in the past actually.

2 hours ago, Invested_Spaghetti said:

I'm actually just trying to describe the different Investitures within the Scadrial system; the powers of the Shards in relation to each-other, not in terms of the Cosmere as a whole. To be fair, Brandon did say this terminology is a bit iffy even in terms of Scadrial. I thought it would be a simple way to get my point across.

Ah, I see. In that case yeah that makes sense.

2 hours ago, Invested_Spaghetti said:

Yeah, it's probably more based on Intent now that I'm thinking. Looking back at Sazed through Era 1, I would argue that he started his journey with the Intent of Preservation, but then ventured down a darker path after losing Tindwyl. He was in a bad place after that, lingering in the mindset of someone closer Ruin? Hmm...

I'd say that's probably it, yeah. As Elend says, Ruin isn't just change and destruction, it's also peace with the fact it happens. Brandon's emphasized the same thing:

Quote

Questioner

I  never understood why Vin couldn't hold the Ruin Shard.

Brandon Sanderson

I could see a world where Vin maybe could have done it. But the trajectory she was on was opposed to it. Vin could have understood and become it. But what are the things that are keeping her? Vin, I don't think accepts, number one, that decay has to happen. She's experienced it a lot. But there's that piece inside her that doesn't want that to happen, doesn't want things to change, does not want people to leave her. I think that would be--if you read through, that's the soul, sort of, center event is, "Don't leave me, don't go away, don't change." And this is diametrically opposed to Ruin. People focus on the fact that she's good at killing and she is. But that heart, that soul...Ruin is more about things changing and decaying, than even about destroying.

Questioner

And I guess that's the reason why she can hold Preservation very easily?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)

Destruction is part of Ruin, but when it comes down to it, pure destruction is a smaller part of what Ruin is. It's acceptance of change and decay and the fact that one day, all things will end. On its own, this tends to manifest as destruction, but the violent destruction is not the actual purpose in and of itself. I feel this is also backed up by when we see the essence of the Shard:

Quote

In that other place, he found destruction.

Decay. Not blackness, for blackness was too complete, too whole to represent this thing he sensed in the Beyond. It was a vast force that would gleefully take something as simple as darkness, then rip it apart.

This force was time infinite. It was the winds that weathered, the storms that broke, the timeless waves running slowly, slowly, slowly to a stop as the sun and the planet cooled to nothing.

It was the ultimate end and destiny of all things.

Yes, it's destruction to an extent. But when we see the examples given, none of them are chaotic explosions or anything. The examples are all more about the slow end that all things must someday meet, the decaying and crumbling over hundreds of years. Hence why Sazed is compatible with it. He's not a destructive person, no, but he has come to accept this ending.

I'm actually very curious how Kelsier would react to holding the Shard. On one hand, yes, he is very Connected to it. He's in many ways an embodiment of change and chaos and destruction and breaking things down.

But in some ways, he's also the embodiment of the opposite. He's the Survivor whom even death could not stop, the unbreakable rock everyone else clings to and who laughs in the face of pain, the man who proudly proclaims "I am Hope" in the face of the Lord Ruler himself as he's killed.

He's far too chaotic and unpredictable for Preservation, and unlike Preservation he does acknowledge change and upheaval as a very necessary force (and one which he greatly enjoys), but I don't believe he's truly come to accept the finality and the end the way Ruin is about either.

Sorry for the long tangent, just something I was discussing earlier today and so it was on my mind.

2 hours ago, Invested_Spaghetti said:

Yeah, you're probably right. Brandon usually shoots for the more subtle and unexpected. Would love to see powers evenly distributed over Roshar.

I can't help but feel the "Honor lives on in the hearts of men" thing is tied to this, especially considering this:

Quote

“You’ll find God in the same place you’re going to find salvation from this mess,” Wit said. “Inside the hearts of men.”

“Curiously,” Jasnah said, “I believe I can actually agree with that, though I suspect for different reasons than you imply. Perhaps this walk won’t be as bad as I had feared.”

Jasnah's not the type to be agreeing for the sake of thematic or religious reasons. I'm not sure what exactly I think is up, but I think that the line will turn out to be far more literal than it sounds at first glance in some way. It's been repeated over and over. Teft has a very curious line as well:

Quote

“My God,” Teft said, realizing he was trembling. “Almighty, cast from heaven to dwell in our hearts … It is true.” He bowed his head to the rock floor, squeezing his eyes shut, tears leaking from their corners.

The only thing I can think of is that perhaps when he was dying and the Shard was close to Splintering, Tanavast Invested humanity in a manner somewhat similar to how Leras did or something, but I'm not sure why or how he would have done so.

2 hours ago, Invested_Spaghetti said:

I wonder if any metal can be brought during Ascension. Maybe it's just Invested stuff that needs to be left behind.

I'd guess no metal, because Sazed drained his copperminds but they still fell to the ground with the rest. But then, we don't know if there's any kind of like, Feruchemical residue that would have kept them slightly Invested, so a former metalmind is probably a bad proof.

I'm now imagining a Vessel Ascending wearing glasses with a metal frame, and then being constantly blinded by them, lol.

2 hours ago, Invested_Spaghetti said:

Fuzz's knife was described as having a bone handle. Makes me think about Warbreaker and BioChromatic Breath; it was always easier to animate bones and objects that resembled parts right? I don't know where I'm going with this...

Hm, I don't see a ton of a connection there myself, but if you come up with one, I'd love to hear it. You never know what's a reference or not in the Cosmere, lol.

[+Invested_Spaghetti]

Damn, there is nearly a WoB for everything, isn't there?

55 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

But when we see the examples given, none of them are chaotic explosions or anything

Now, I'm pretty sure I remember a scene from Hero of Ages where one of the Ashmounts literally explodes engulfing a city as Ironeyes leaves the region in his search for the Atium. I'm just being annoying.

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The examples are all more about the slow end that all things must someday meet, the decaying and crumbling over hundreds of years.

To be serious though, Ruin did drastically hasten destruction once freed and continued to destroy the regions with the Ashmounts once he was sure the Atium was not present.

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I'm actually very curious how Kelsier would react to holding the Shard. On one hand, yes, he is very Connected to it. He's in many ways an embodiment of change and chaos and destruction and breaking things down.

It's a fun tangent. From Secret History, we see his limitations holding Preservation, which is most likely due to him being dead but probably related to misplaced Intent as well. Ruin admits that Kelsier is more an aspect of him.

Quote

It’s not for you, Kelsier, Preservation said. It’s not yours. It belongs to another.
...
SURVIVE. The word vibrated through him, and Kelsier gasped. He knew that feeling, remembered that exact command. He’d heard that voice in the Pits. Waking him, driving him forward. Saving him.
...
He willed his boundless power to attack. And nothing happened. Preservation’s power resisted him still. It shied away from his murderous intent, and push though he would, he couldn’t make it hurt Ruin.
...
“Oh, Kelsier!” Ruin cried. “You think I mind what you have done? Why, I’d have chosen for you to take the power! It’s perfect! You’re merely an aspect of me, after all.”
...
“Even assuming it could harm me, you couldn’t accomplish such a task. Look at you, Kelsier! You haven’t form or shape. You’re not alive, you’re an idea. A memory of a man holding the power will never be as potent as a real one with ties to all three Realms.”

- Secret History

 

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The only thing I can think of is that perhaps when he was dying and the Shard was close to Splintering, Tanavast Invested humanity in a manner somewhat similar to how Leras did or something, but I'm not sure why or how he would have done so.

I agree with your theory here. I definitely think Honor splintered himself or dispersed his powers into humans somehow, perhaps through bonded spren? Or as an emulsifier to allow the bond? If all humans literally contained Splinters of Honor, and if a certain someone could unite all the humans of Roshar under one banner or perhaps one Intent...
Also, Honor was going a bit kookoo near the end, right? Maybe spreading himself too thin? Shardblades are partly made of Honor's metal, is that metal source infinite?

[LewsTherinTelescope]

7 hours ago, Invested_Spaghetti said:

Now, I'm pretty sure I remember a scene from Hero of Ages where one of the Ashmounts literally explodes engulfing a city as Ironeyes leaves the region in his search for the Atium. I'm just being annoying.

Oh for sure. Ruin is not OPPOSED to destruction, and when you take "change and decay and breaking things down" and make a force entirely out of that, you're going to end up with a lot of destruction. It's more a discussion of, well, Intent. When Kelsier looks at Ruin, and we get examples of its Intent like in that paragraph, those example aren't the exploding volcano. They're the slow erosion, the crumbling across years upon years upon countless years. The Intention isn't "chaos and destruction, yesss, let's hurt people", it's "this has been going on too long, let's finally bring it to a close".

7 hours ago, Invested_Spaghetti said:

Also, Honor was going a bit kookoo near the end, right? Maybe spreading himself too thin?

Imo, it's more similar to what happened to Leras. Started going kind of crazy, was overtaken by Intent to an extreme degree (we're told that at the end, oaths themselves started mattering more than the meaning behind them), etc. After the description in RoW, the Oathpact sounds surprisingly similar to Ati's prison, and we're told the Oathpact is similar to how Honor and Cultivation bound Odium.

Quote

Shardblades are partly made of Honor's metal, is that metal source infinite?

Sort of. The Investiture to make Shardblades comes from the spren themselves. Similarly to how Ruin was manifest as atium, a spren could manifest itself in the Physical Realm as a lump of godmetal. Though the spren seems to be able to control this, at least when already pulled over a bit by the bond.