Taravangian's Lost Redemption

[LockeTazeline]

When I read RoW the first time, the biggest thing that stuck out to me was that Sanderson's character work on Taravangian was masterful.  Halfway through the book, Sanderson had set up a single choice for Taravangian, a choice that would define his character, a choice where he could have legitimately become the redeemed hero of the entire series but instead became its darkest villain. Taravangian, in contrast to Dalinar, has a fatal flaw, and it's more than just "end justifies the means".

It was so subtle though, and I haven't heard anyone else comment on it, so I wanted to pull it out here:

The choice I'm talking about is this one here, from Taravangian's final interlude:

Quote

He'd started a dozen letters to Dalinar, and ripped them all up. The right words. Dalinar would only respond to the right words. Plus, whatever Taravangian wrote seemed too much a risk to Kharbranth. He couldn't sacrifice his home. He couldn't.

It's the choice to tell Dalinar. At this point, Taravangian realized that he was wrong. Humanity isn't absolutely doomed. There is a way to defeat Odium, and he keeps thinking about telling Dalinar...but he never does, always finding a different reason not to. They could have finished it together, but in the end, he resolves to do it himself, just as he had before.

Let's observe the setup.

Throughout every Taravangian scene is pulsing this question: "What are Taravangian's true motives?"

From his 1st inerlude:

Quote

"Taravangian would be given to the Alethi for execution, and his corpse would be burned without a proper funeral. The Alethi gave no honors to traitors. Acknowledging his fate hurt. Like a spear through his gut. Odd, how much that should bother him. He'd be dead, so what did he care about a funeral?"

 

From his conversations with Dalinar:

Quote

"I refuse to accept that we've lost," Dalinar said...'nobody knows for certain what will happen."
Strangely, the older man nodded. "Yes, yes perhaps. I could be wrong. That would be wonderful, wouldn't it, Dalinar? I'd die happy, knowing I was wrong."
"Would you?" Dalinar said
...
"I would die happily," Taravangian said, "if I could see that I was wrong. If you won."
"I don't think you would. I don't think you could stand not being the one who saved us"..."You wanted to be the glorious king who sacrificed himself to protect everyone else. You have always seen yourself as the man who must bear the burden of leading."

Quote

"At the end, when I face Odium and win, you will be there. I'll give you this gift."
"The pain of knowing I was wrong?"
"You told me earlier that you wished to be proven wrong. If you're sincere - and this was never about being right or about gaining power - then on that day we can embrace, knowing it is all over. Old friend."

You can see it here. This question. Was Taravangian a tragic hero? A man with the noblest of intentions who had done what he thought was best with the wrong information? Or has he been subtly lying even to himself, has he pushed this narrative so deeply into his subconscious because he wanted to be the hero, the one who saved everyone? Is it his self-sacrifice or self-ego that drives him?

His whole conversation with Dalinar danced around this, and at the end you get a glimpse at what could have been the alternate storyline for the Stormlight Archives. Taravangian, after learning his Diagram was mistaken, lets go of his ego and surrenders his role as the hero of the story to Dalinar. He tells Dalinar of Odium's weakness to Nightblood, and Dalinar defeats Odium once and for all. Taravangian's reputation is tarnished forever by his earlier betrayal, but humanity is saved. He lives on, hated by humanity, but he earns the respect of one man, ending the series as Dalinar's closest friend, working together for the good of humanity.

In the interludes, we see Taravangian himself wrestling with it. This is his conversation with Renarin:

Quote

"I see your future, Taravangian. It is dark. Not like anything I've seen before. Except there's a point of light flickering in the darkness. I worry what it it will mean if that goes out."
...
"You are in darkness, Taravangian, and my father thinks you are lost. I lived through his return, and it taught me that no man is ever so far lost that he cannot find his way back. You are not alone.' The young man opened his eyes, stepped forward, then lifted his hand and presented it toward Taravangian. The gesture felt awkward. As if Renarin wasn't quite sure what he was doing.
He wants me to take his hand.
Taravangian didn't. Seeing it made him want to break into tears, but he contained himself. Foolish emotions. Taravangian was not lost in darkness. He had chosen this path, and he knew precisely where he was doing. Didn't he?"

I remember thinking at this point that we were in for a Taravangian redemption arc, and I was all here for it, but Sanderson bamboozled me yet again. I believe the light flickering in the darkness was Taravangian's wavering decision to confide in Dalinar, and the deep darkness of him rejecting that is our present reality of him having become Odium. His refusal to take Renarin's hand is symbolic of his refusal to accept help from Dalinar or anyone else. He's battling against admitting his own deep flaws.

 

And his most fatal flaw pokes its head out as he goes back and forth about going to Dalinar. Check out this sequence of moments where Taravangian thinks about talking to Dalinar.

Quote

Several times, the words "Don't talk to Dalinar" were underlined. In his current state, Taravangian was uncertain about that. Why not talk to him? Smarter him was convinced they needed to do this themselves. Dalinar Kholin could not be entrusted with Taravangian's plans. For Dalinar Kholin would do what was right. Not what was needed.

Quote

He'd started a dozen letters to Dalinar, and ripped them all up. The right words. Dalinar would only respond to the right words. Plus, whatever Taravangian wrote seemed too much a risk to Kharbranth. He couldn't sacrifice his home. He couldn't.

Quote

Smarter Taravangian claimed he didn't want to work with Dalinar because it was too dangerous, or because Dalinar wouldn't believe. Those lies made dumb Taravangian want to pound his fists at his own face out of shame. But the truth was more shameful.

Quote

Trying so hard to think. There had to be a solution!
Go to Dalinar, a part of him urged. Don't write him. Talk to him. Was Taravangian actually waiting on the right words, or was there another reason he delayed? A willing disregard for the truth. The slightly smarter version of him that didn't want to give this up to the Blackthorn.

The truth that his actions reveal is in the end he is too proud. It's his fatal flaw. He can't admit he was wrong. He can't share the spotlight. He can't play second fiddle. Everything is building up for him to turn around and make the right choice in his 11th hour, but he can't do it. 

It's the inverse of Dalinar at the end of Oathbringer. Come face to face with the worst of himself, Dalinar took the blow head on. He acknowledged himself as a bad man, but instead of cowering away, he exposed himself to the world and took the next step forward.  Taravangian, in one moment of brutal honesty, acknowledges to himself that his entire motive has been built out of justifications...but he keeps going.

And he hasn't stopped.

Quote

And now, Taravangian was going to save them all.

 

[Szeth_Pancakes]

...Wow. Normally, I would reply to this with my thoughts, but you summed everything up so well, I don’t really have anything to say. Nice job!

[Honorless]

Well said

[+Child of Hodor]

This is great. I forgot about his wanting to tell Dalinar something to help him.

Only thing I add is how he always exemplified Odium's "blame me" "let me have the pain" M.O. since book 1. In addition, Rayse liked to be worshipped and Taravangian does in his way as well.The chip on his shoulder and insecurity about his potential "diminished capacity" from his difficult birth lend him to being needy in that way.  This goes underscores your point on him needing to be THE hero to save everyone, he can't let it be Dalinar. 

"It is better for one man to sin than for a people to be destroyed" WoK Ch. 71

"He worshipped only one god now. The man he was on that day" RoW I-14

"I must hang all four men." He paused "And I would weep, every night for having done it." OB Ch 28

"Taravangian finally faced something greater than himself: a different version of himself." OB I-5

[AquaRegia]

Most excellent.  Thank you for taking the time to share this terrific analysis.  Like you, I find Taravangian to be one of the most interesting, compelling, and believable characters in SA.  Not unlike Venli, his insecurities, struggles and self-doubt make him among the most HUMAN of a cast of great characters.

It's one big reason I'm confident TOdium will not be defeated in book 5 - Brandon has put way too much work into crafting this fully-realized and amazing villain to waste him on one single book.  I have no doubt he will continue to be a force in the back half of SA.

[Andy92]

Taravangian is kind of like Thanos. 

Spoiler

Thanos was convinced randomly murdering half of Titan would have saved them all from starvation. When they labeled him a madman and ignored his suggestion, the planet eventually ran out of resources and suffered mass extinction like he predicted. 

A lot of people questioned why Thanos wouldn’t just use the infinity gauntlet to create infinite resources of food to help starving populations. He could have feasibly done this with the power of that full gauntlet, but his whole plan was to prove to the world that his original idea for saving Titan was justified. Eliminating half of all life had to work for him to prove to himself he wasn’t the madman everyone said he was. 

The problem is that he was a madman. Once he obtained the power to actually fix things, he used it to murder. Taravangian is walking a similar line. He thinks the end result is justifiable regardless of the means he uses to accomplish his goals, which is completely counter-intuitive to the First Ideal of the Radiants. He’s now more on a mission to prove to the world that he isn’t a madman, and that’s going to lead to him dooming them all. 

 

Edited April 23, 2021 by Andy92

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood]

6 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

Most excellent.  Thank you for taking the time to share this terrific analysis.  Like you, I find Taravangian to be one of the most interesting, compelling, and believable characters in SA.  Not unlike Venli, his insecurities, struggles and self-doubt make him among the most HUMAN of a cast of great characters.

It's one big reason I'm confident TOdium will not be defeated in book 5 - Brandon has put way too much work into crafting this fully-realized and amazing villain to waste him on one single book.  I have no doubt he will continue to be a force in the back half of SA.

what if he is defeated, just not dead. remember the details of the deal? he said that he would still be alive on Braize and eventually come back. so what if the second half is TOdium coming back and slapping the characters in the back and trying to murder them again.

[Forms of mind]

27 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

what if he is defeated, just not dead. remember the details of the deal? he said that he would still be alive on Braize and eventually come back. so what if the second half is TOdium coming back and slapping the characters in the back and trying to murder them again.

These Are my theories.

I agree. I just do not see a scenerio where TOdium wins the contest of champions. I think the second half is TOdium doing stuff off world and a whole lot of people comming to roshar to fight odium or join odium. What Odiums have always wanted is a super smash bros free for all event. Part 2 of Stormlight is where roshar turns into a proxy war for different god factions. I remeber in book 1 epigraphs dragon dude from 17th shard tells hoid to back off because he would create a bunch of extra beef. Roshar is about to be kitchen where they cook the beef into beef paties. 

[Halyo_Alex]

6 hours ago, Forms of mind said:

Roshar is about to be kitchen where they cook the beef into beef paties. 

Finally, a form of combat that Rock will actually enjoy partaking in.

[+robardin]

As of this reply, I see that the OP has one (1) post. This one. An impressive debut on the 17th Shard forum! Bravo!

 

On 4/22/2021 at 6:37 PM, LockeTazeline said:

...you get a glimpse at what could have been the alternate storyline for the Stormlight Archives. Taravangian, after learning his Diagram was mistaken, lets go of his ego and surrenders his role as the hero of the story to Dalinar. He tells Dalinar of Odium's weakness to Nightblood, and Dalinar defeats Odium once and for all. Taravangian's reputation is tarnished forever by his earlier betrayal, but humanity is saved. He lives on, hated by humanity, but he earns the respect of one man, ending the series as Dalinar's closest friend, working together for the good of humanity.

I don't think this was ever a realistic path for Taravangian, for he at no point considered the Diagram to have been "mistaken". Far from it - he had accepted his arrest and surrendered because he thought its work was done: he'd saved mankind from Odium's wrath, to the best of his ability. It turned out to be Kharbranth and all its people, to the third generation, when he'd hoped to save much more... But that was better than nothing. He would NOT betray Odium at the end and nullify their guarantee of protection from Odium to give Dalinar a better chance to save more, or even all, of humanity.

What he meant in that scene with Dalinar was that he'd be happy to be proven wrong in the end if Dalinar managed to defeat Odium despite what he'd done - that Odium's victory was not inevitable. He didn't regret his actions because it meant saving Kharbranth: he assumed that if Dalinar won, the city and people of Kharbranth would still stand - Dalinar wouldn't destroy the city and its people Rift-style in retribution for their king having gone over to Odium.

He freely admits he's rooting for Dalinar to pull that off, he just doesn't see how it's possible.

However, you are absolutely right that there is a character component to Taravangian that has both a savior complex and an "I'm smarter than everyone else" attitude. After Ascending to Odium he still wants to "fix" things, the "chaos" of being "ruled by fools" and "presided over by broken gods", on Roshar and the wider Cosmere, whatever that means to him now. And while as the New Odium he has it in his power essentially to concede the Battle of Champions to Dalinar, he thinks he can do better by winning it.

And because that POV is true to the Taravangian we saw create the Diagram, I think this direction for Odium WAS foreseen by Cultivation.

That said, what would have happened if he had taken Renarin's hand? Would he have seen a vision of the version of him that was the "small point of light in the vast darkness" of his possible outcomes, the way Moash saw himself as a Bridge Four Windrunner in Hearthstone? But what would that have led to?

I'm not sure that that's what that "point of light" outcome represented. Because if Taravangian did betray Odium to Dalinar - which would dissolve his agreement with Odium and put Kharbranth at risk again - and someone now used Nightblood to destroy Rayse, who would become the new Odium? An unclaimed Shard loose in the Cosmere is also a bad and dangerous thing...!

Edited April 24, 2021 by robardin

[jamesbondsmith]

I kind of agree the Taravangian wanted to be a saviour more than he wanted to actually save people.

Infinity War/Endgame/general Cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

It's why I think he might end up winning, but people resist him so he chucks a tantrum and runs away from Roshar and tries to 'save' Scadrial, which leads to 'Trell' attacking the planet. If he brings Singers/Rosharan humans with him, it could lead to Scadrial to attack Roshar in turn. I'm sure wouldn't be the first time in history or fiction where a renegade faction of Group A is believed to be the same as the rest of Group A and the Group B attacks Group A directly.

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by jamesbondsmith
Forgot spoiler box

[LockeTazeline]

On 4/23/2021 at 5:30 AM, Child of Hodor said:

This is great. I forgot about his wanting to tell Dalinar something to help him.

Only thing I add is how he always exemplified Odium's "blame me" "let me have the pain" M.O. since book 1. In addition, Rayse liked to be worshipped and Taravangian does in his way as well.The chip on his shoulder and insecurity about his potential "diminished capacity" from his difficult birth lend him to being needy in that way.  This goes underscores your point on him needing to be THE hero to save everyone, he can't let it be Dalinar. 

"It is better for one man to sin than for a people to be destroyed" WoK Ch. 71

"He worshipped only one god now. The man he was on that day" RoW I-14

"I must hang all four men." He paused "And I would weep, every night for having done it." OB Ch 28

"Taravangian finally faced something greater than himself: a different version of himself." OB I-5

Great finds! Thank you!

 

On 4/23/2021 at 8:39 AM, AquaRegia said:

Most excellent.  Thank you for taking the time to share this terrific analysis.  Like you, I find Taravangian to be one of the most interesting, compelling, and believable characters in SA.  Not unlike Venli, his insecurities, struggles and self-doubt make him among the most HUMAN of a cast of great characters.

It's one big reason I'm confident TOdium will not be defeated in book 5 - Brandon has put way too much work into crafting this fully-realized and amazing villain to waste him on one single book.  I have no doubt he will continue to be a force in the back half of SA.

I am VERY curious to see where Brandon goes with him! Just when I felt I had a grip on where the series was going, Brandon flipped the script on us, and now it feels like anything could happen

 

On 4/24/2021 at 9:12 AM, robardin said:

As of this reply, I see that the OP has one (1) post. This one. An impressive debut on the 17th Shard forum! Bravo!

Thank ye the kind words good sir. I used to post a lot on the WoT forums. Been in the Cosmere since Sando took over and after reading RoW, Stormlight supplanted WoT as my favourite series. Happy to get more involved in the community ^^

On 4/24/2021 at 9:12 AM, robardin said:

I don't think this was ever a realistic path for Taravangian, for he at no point considered the Diagram to have been "mistaken". Far from it - he had accepted his arrest and surrendered because he thought its work was done: he'd saved mankind from Odium's wrath, to the best of his ability. It turned out to be Kharbranth and all its people, to the third generation, when he'd hoped to save much more... But that was better than nothing. He would NOT betray Odium at the end and nullify their guarantee of protection from Odium to give Dalinar a better chance to save more, or even all, of humanity.

I think he realized that Nightblood was an unforeseen possibility that he hadn't calculated into the Diagram. Maybe not mistaken, but missing a variable that was now present. The betrayal is an interesting point. He does tell himself that as a reason he can't tell Dalinar, that he can't risk losing Kharbranth. I wonder though, if his plan to kill Odium himself had failed, could that have also negated his agreement with Odium?

On 4/24/2021 at 9:12 AM, robardin said:

And because that POV is true to the Taravangian we saw create the Diagram, I think this direction for Odium WAS foreseen by Cultivation.

This is interesting, I've been wondering about this.

My current theory is that Cultivation took similar gambles on Dalinar and Taravangian and that each had character testing moments which Dalinar ("you cannot have my pain") passed and Taravangian (submitting to Dalinar) failed, she just hasn't realized it yet.

But I'm also considering the idea that Cultivation's goals differ entirely from the Odium - Honor dichotomy and she's got her own agenda cooking in which case you might be right this is exactly what she wanted (Cultivation secret big bad anyone?)

 

On 4/30/2021 at 8:28 AM, jamesbondsmith said:

I kind of agree the Taravangian wanted to be a saviour more than he wanted to actually save people.

One thing that's interesting to me is that he needs to be the saviour, but he doesn't seem to need other people to recognize him as the saviour. His motivation is primarily internal, it's his own view of himself he wants to satisfy. In our modern generation where we all crave to do something meaningful/make a difference/leave the world a better place, I find it a highly relatable motivation and one worth reflecting on.

Edited May 4, 2021 by LockeTazeline

[+robardin]

2 hours ago, LockeTazeline said:

But I'm also considering the idea that Cultivation's goals differ entirely from the Odium - Honor dichotomy and she's got her own agenda cooking in which case you might be right this is exactly what she wanted (Cultivation secret big bad anyone?)

Well, I didn't mean that Cultivation was a "big bad" - more that Taravangian's triumphant thought, "Oh you wonderful creature, you have no idea what you've done", was way, way off base.

She knows you better than you know yourself, Taravangian; she pruned you to Ascend, and the trellis you never felt upon you is still there as a Vessel!

[RedBlue]

2 hours ago, LockeTazeline said:

My current theory is that Cultivation took similar gambles on Dalinar and Taravangian and that each had character testing moments which Dalinar ("you cannot have my pain") passed and Taravangian (submitting to Dalinar) failed, she just hasn't realized it yet.

But I'm also considering the idea that Cultivation's goals differ entirely from the Odium - Honor dichotomy and she's got her own agenda cooking in which case you might be right this is exactly what she wanted (Cultivation secret big bad anyone?)

I love your analysis of Taravangian’s character. I have also been wondering what Cultivation can be thinking.

My current theory is that Cultivation thinks that T-Odium will ultimately self-destruct. 

Odium’s goal is to destroy all the other Shards. That goal is tied to Odium the Shard, regardless of the Vessel - so no matter who holds the power, Odium is a threat to Cultivation. So trying to manoeuvre somebody good or safe into being Odium’s Vessel would only delay the problem. That’s why I think that Cultivation’s play with Taravangian is about taking Odium down, even though it doesn’t look like it.

As for what her goals are beyond just surviving, I agree that she must have some agenda cooking. She is Cultivation, so her Shard’s Intent is probably pushing her to change and grow. That seems at odds with just hanging out on Roshar indefinitely.  

[+robardin]

12 hours ago, RedBlue said:

I love your analysis of Taravangian’s character. I have also been wondering what Cultivation can be thinking.

My current theory is that Cultivation thinks that T-Odium will ultimately self-destruct. 

Odium’s goal is to destroy all the other Shards. That goal is tied to Odium the Shard, regardless of the Vessel - so no matter who holds the power, Odium is a threat to Cultivation. So trying to manoeuvre somebody good or safe into being Odium’s Vessel would only delay the problem. That’s why I think that Cultivation’s play with Taravangian is about taking Odium down, even though it doesn’t look like it.

As for what her goals are beyond just surviving, I agree that she must have some agenda cooking. She is Cultivation, so her Shard’s Intent is probably pushing her to change and grow. That seems at odds with just hanging out on Roshar indefinitely.  

Cultivation does comment that "Odium's power... ruled Rayse, driving him to destroy", but we have also had WoBs to the effect that Odium's actions to Splinter rather than to absorb other Shards had to do with Rayse (the Vessel) not wanting to be influenced by other Shardic intents, that Odium "suited him perfectly". And Hoid mentioned a few times in his letters that Rayse holding Odium was a particularly dangerous combination.

Both imply that another Vessel of Odium could or would take things in a different direction. (And let's not forget that Rayse was apparently struggling with Odium's intent towards the end.)

So, why did Cultivation groom Taravangian, of all people, to replace Rayse?

The obvious answer is that she didn't exactly have a lot of choices at hand to work with. She may have decided that it was worth eliminating Rayse when the extremely rare opportunity presented itself, when Taravangian the King of Kharbranth came to her seeking a boon specifically related to surviving Odium's wrath (what better cover to plot against Odium?), and then to figure out the rest later: "...all I could do was hope that if you succeeded, my gift would work. That I had changed you into someone who could bear this power with honor."

Even so, I can't believe Cultivation would be surprised at how Taravangian is acting, or will act, as Odium. What she can or will do about it, once it becomes apparent that Taravangian may not be "bearing this power with honor" in the way that she hoped for (if in fact that is what he is doing), we can only imagine.

As for her long game being a version of Odium that "self-destructs", I once made a joking post that perhaps the goal is to get Moash to take up Odium. He hates himself so much for what he's done to his friends that once Odium can't take away his pain (because he'd be Odium), he would end up a navel-gazing version instead of a Shard-Splintering version.

...Maybe that's not quite so farfetched an angle? If not Moash specifically, as the way to "contain" the Shard? But Taravangian has never hated himself for his actions, so he'd have to be a bridge to another Vessel for that to work.

Edited May 5, 2021 by robardin

[LockeTazeline]

It is interesting that she uses the word honor. It can hardly be an accident given her history with Honor, and yet Taravangian seems a hard sell for that character trait. I wonder how Cultivation would define honor.

[Letryx13]

This is honestly the part of RoW that had me thinking the most.  Taravangian is so determined to believe he was right in doing what he did, despite the fact that he got so much wrong. On some level, he probably did want to help save people, but the weight of his reputation of having "diminished capacity" and trying to prove it wrong probably loomed over everything else.

More than anything, though, I think his pride and refusal to admit he was wrong is his biggest failing. Dalinar straight out says that Taravangian was wrong to assume that Dalinar would submit to Odium (which ended up not happening) and all Taravangian says is that he doesn't have the mind to explain it to Dalinar. 

It's also interesting to note that Odium didn't even approach Taravangian until after the Battle of Thaylen Field. Which means Odium probably wouldn't have bothered negotiating with Taravangian except in the case that Dalinar refused him, which Taravangian didn't think would happen. So, in a way, Taravangian's entire actions were completely pointless.