Power from the Fifth Ideal

[Necarion]

What does a Radiant get from swearing her Fifth Ideal? First and Second were important power boosts. Third was the Shardblade (which was left behind at the Recreance) and Fourth was the Shardplate (also left behind at the Recreance). But there are no artifacts left behind that could plausibly be from the Fifth Ideal.

Obviously, it's some important power boost that is centered on the Radiant and those around them. There are probably the spiritual boosts (people are more likely to respect the leadership of a Windrunner, the judgment of a Skybreaker, etc) and probably some boosts to the squires and lesser Radiants. But none of these are really story-changing or spectacular enough. On the other hand, there is one thing that would fit a KR reaching their highest power:

They can Surgebind without having to carry or directly draw upon Stormlight.

The only 5th Idealer we've seen is Nalan, who can burst alight at any time, and Lift never once mentions him needing to breathe in Stormlight. Now, this might be from his Honorblade, which WOB says allowed the Heralds to directly connect to Honor's power. But the Spren copied the power of the Honorblades in crafting the Nahel Bond, meaning that, at least to some extent, the most invested KR are going to have similar powers to the Heralds.  Because they're tied directly into Honor, I think this power would not allow them to serve as a source of Stormlight for other Radiants or for spheres (as that would be OP).

Further, Lift herself never has to draw on Stormlight, but can turn it on and off in herself. This is partly from her weird powers, and comes directly out of her food supply. But she can choose when she wants to be Awesome or not.

(Weaker option: a Fifth Ideal KR can store Stormlight indefinitely, without loss, until they use it. This allows storing power pre-battle.)

Edited April 22, 2021 by Necarion

[Aspiring Writer]

54 minutes ago, Necarion said:

What does a Radiant get from swearing her Fifth Ideal? First and Second were important power boosts. Third was the Shardblade (which was left behind at the Recreance) and Fourth was the Shardplate (also left behind at the Recreance). But there are no artifacts left behind that could plausibly be from the Fifth Ideal.

Obviously, it's some important power boost that is centered on the Radiant and those around them. There are probably the spiritual boosts (people are more likely to respect the leadership of a Windrunner, the judgment of a Skybreaker, etc) and probably some boosts to the squires and lesser Radiants. But none of these are really story-changing or spectacular enough. On the other hand, there is one thing that would fit a KR reaching their highest power:

They can Surgebind without having to carry or directly draw upon Stormlight.

The only 5th Idealer we've seen is Nalan, who can burst alight at any time, and Lift never once mentions him needing to breathe in Stormlight. Now, this might be from his Honorblade, which WOB says allowed the Heralds to directly connect to Honor's power. But the Spren copied the power of the Honorblades in crafting the Nahel Bond, meaning that, at least to some extent, the most invested KR are going to have similar powers to the Heralds.  Because they're tied directly into Honor, I think this power would not allow them to serve as a source of Stormlight for other Radiants or for spheres (as that would be OP).

Further, Lift herself never has to draw on Stormlight, but can turn it on and off in herself. This is partly from her weird powers, and comes directly out of her food supply. But she can choose when she wants to be Awesome or not.

(Weaker option: a Fifth Ideal KR can store Stormlight indefinitely, without loss, until they use it. This allows storing power pre-battle.)

Likely the weaker option. There is a WoB where they compare the radiant to a gemstone that keeps getting more and more cut, which lets the radiants use/loss less stormlight, which makes since. I think it will be a mix of both, however, where certain abilities, like healing, use stormlight, while others don't.

[Quantus]

We know per WOB that Honor himself, not the Honorblades, provided a direct source of Stormlight.  Now the heralds need to get sources normally via gems, and the Honorblades are far less efficient with their Stormlight usage because the Bond they utilize is weaker/shallower.  

We have three confirmed effects of the 5th Ideal: their Stormlight Efficiency and Healing Capabilities will both continue to progress as they have with each Ideal, and whatever means the Spren have to forcefully remove the Bond will no longer work.

Speculating, I would guess the Squires would get some increase, in abilities, numbers or perhaps range from their Radiant, for Orders that get Squires.  Hypothetically the Bond represents the Spren and Radiant literally merging Spiritwebs, so they might get some spren-blending abilities, touching spren like Lift, seeing spren like Rock, etc. Along the same lines I would love to see the Spren get new abilities of their own: maybe they are anchored enough that they can manifest their full Shadesmar form in the Physical Realm, or maybe they get to Reverse-Summon their Radiant into Shadesmar (doubtful but fun).  Originally (ie. in the early Prime drafts) each Order had more specific connections to their associated Essence (to the point where each had limited Soulcasting the way each has limited Healing even without Regrowth) so perhaps some aspect of that manifests?

I dont see them getting infinite Stormlight for a few of reasons: The spren themselves dont have that and need Stormlight to live so it  doesn't make as much realmic sense. It would also give them effectively infinite Healing which gets narrative-breaking real fast.  Perfect Storage is very interesting and I would entirely buy it being related to how the Bond can no longer be externally broken, so I do like that option a bunch.  

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Quantus
Awful spelling...

[Halyo_Alex]

I'm inclined to believe that there is at least some level of "fusion" that goes on at the 5th ideal, though I have little to go on besides "the spren can no longer voluntarily remove the bond" and the general progression of the spiritwebs becoming more interlinked until what I imagine becomes such a complete connection that they become spiritually indistinguishable from one another, sharing what is in essence a singular, united spiritweb.

Hmm, united...

[BenduLuke]

10 hours ago, Necarion said:

What does a Radiant get from swearing her Fifth Ideal? First and Second were important power boosts. Third was the Shardblade (which was left behind at the Recreance) and Fourth was the Shardplate (also left behind at the Recreance). But there are no artifacts left behind that could plausibly be from the Fifth Ideal.

Obviously, it's some important power boost that is centered on the Radiant and those around them. There are probably the spiritual boosts (people are more likely to respect the leadership of a Windrunner, the judgment of a Skybreaker, etc) and probably some boosts to the squires and lesser Radiants. But none of these are really story-changing or spectacular enough. On the other hand, there is one thing that would fit a KR reaching their highest power:

They can Surgebind without having to carry or directly draw upon Stormlight.

The only 5th Idealer we've seen is Nalan, who can burst alight at any time, and Lift never once mentions him needing to breathe in Stormlight. Now, this might be from his Honorblade, which WOB says allowed the Heralds to directly connect to Honor's power. But the Spren copied the power of the Honorblades in crafting the Nahel Bond, meaning that, at least to some extent, the most invested KR are going to have similar powers to the Heralds.  Because they're tied directly into Honor, I think this power would not allow them to serve as a source of Stormlight for other Radiants or for spheres (as that would be OP).

Further, Lift herself never has to draw on Stormlight, but can turn it on and off in herself. This is partly from her weird powers, and comes directly out of her food supply. But she can choose when she wants to be Awesome or not.

(Weaker option: a Fifth Ideal KR can store Stormlight indefinitely, without loss, until they use it. This allows storing power pre-battle.)

I'll address Lyft first. She doesn't actually operate on stormlight, she uses Lifelight originating from cultivation not honor. That is also why she is such a good healer.

What if it was 5th Ideals that formed Soulcasters (Lightweavers, Elsecallers) or ancient fabrials that mimic the surges like oath gates (Elsecallers, Willshapers). That could be why there are a limited number of Soulcaster Fabrials available. I can see Jasnah being able to teleport on the battle field or not even need an oath gate because her transportation surge matures at 5th Ideal. Some surges might even start working at range that didn't before.

[Halyo_Alex]

4 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I'll address Lyft first. She doesn't actually operate on stormlight, she uses Lifelight originating from cultivation not honor. That is also why she is such a good healer.

Don't forget the weirdness of Progression being immune to the surge suppression fabrial.

4 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

What if it was 5th Ideals that formed Soulcasters (Lightweavers, Elsecallers) or ancient fabrials that mimic the surges like oath gates (Elsecallers, Willshapers). That could be why there are a limited number of Soulcaster Fabrials available. I can see Jasnah being able to teleport on the battle field or not even need an oath gate because her transportation surge matures at 5th Ideal. Some surges might even start working at range that didn't before.

I could see this easily being the case. The bond with the radiant's physical aspect becomes complex and full enough to let the spren manifest as something more complicated than just a piece of metal, etc.

[Aspiring Writer]

This should probably move into RoW thread. @Chaos

[BenduLuke]

18 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Don't forget the weirdness of Progression being immune to the surge suppression fabrial.

I could see this easily being the case. The bond with the radiant's physical aspect becomes complex and full enough to let the spren manifest as something more complicated than just a piece of metal, etc.

I was thinking more along the line of how lesser spren become plate.

[IAmTheStick]

On 4/22/2021 at 5:43 PM, Halyo_Alex said:

Don't forget the weirdness of Progression being immune to the surge suppression fabrial.

Is progression immune to the surge suppression? I thought that was just cuz of Lift's weirdne--- I mean awesomeness

[Halyo_Alex]

1 hour ago, IAmTheStick said:

Is progression immune to the surge suppression? I thought that was just cuz of Lift's weirdne--- I mean awesomeness

Personal headcanon is that it's because Lift uses Lifelight and progression is the surge most suited to Cultivation's Intent, much like how Adhesion is best suited to Honor's intent.

So if there's a Surge best suited to Odium's intent, powering it with Voidlight should let someone circumvent a suppression fabrial?

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 4/24/2021 at 9:56 AM, IAmTheStick said:

Is progression immune to the surge suppression? I thought that was just cuz of Lift's weirdne--- I mean awesomeness

She could use it for Progression, but not for Abrasion, so clearly it's more than just the Lifelight.

On 4/24/2021 at 11:38 AM, Halyo_Alex said:

So if there's a Surge best suited to Odium's intent, powering it with Voidlight should let someone circumvent a suppression fabrial?

Wasn't Venli able to use Voidlight to power both her Surges just fine, even though Stormlight didn't work for them with the fabrial on? Or am I misremembering?

Edited April 26, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Wasn't Venli able to use Voidlight to power both her Surges just fine, even though Stormlight didn't work for them with the fabrial on? Or am I misremembering?

They were refering to the tower's normal supression.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They were refering to the tower's normal supression.

Ohhhhhh right my bad. That makes more sense.

[mathiau]

On 24/04/2021 at 6:38 PM, Halyo_Alex said:

So if there's a Surge best suited to Odium's intent, powering it with Voidlight should let someone circumvent a suppression fabrial?

There's not really a Surge more suited to Odium's intent than the others, and currently Surges are of C&H anyway

Quote

Questioner

I've had this question burning deep inside me since I finished RoW, is there a truest Surge of Odium? My headcanon for now is Transportation.

Brandon Sanderson

Hey! So, I'll deal with this eventually in the books, so it's a RAFO for now! But do keep in mind that the Surges on Roshar, as they're understood now, are mostly Honor/Cultivation.

General Reddit 2020 (Dec. 9, 2020)

[Halyo_Alex]

13 minutes ago, mathiau said:

There's not really a Surge more suited to Odium's intent than the others, and currently Surges are of C&H anyway

He does say "mostly", and I mean... *Gestures to Division* It's directly between Honor's Truest Surge and "cultivation's truest surge".

[mathiau]

Just now, Halyo_Alex said:

He does say "mostly", and I mean... *Gestures to Division* It's directly between Honor's Truest Surge and "cultivation's truest surge".

Division would be Ruin's Surge, not Odium's. Odium's Surge would be about emotions and contests, not about separating things

[Frustration]

33 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

He does say "mostly", and I mean... *Gestures to Division* It's directly between Honor's Truest Surge and "cultivation's truest surge".

"Hatred can unify men far more quickly, and far more powerfully than devotion ever could" -Elantris probably horribly misquoted

[+Bzhydack]

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Division would be Ruin's Surge, not Odium's. Odium's Surge would be about emotions and contests, not about separating things

Basicly, ther is 16 Shards, but only 10 Surges. Some would not have one.

About emotions... Illumination comes to mind.

On 22.04.2021 at 9:14 PM, BenduLuke said:

What if it was 5th Ideals that formed Soulcasters (Lightweavers, Elsecallers) or ancient fabrials that mimic the surges like oath gates (Elsecallers, Willshapers). That could be why there are a limited number of Soulcaster Fabrials available. I can see Jasnah being able to teleport on the battle field or not even need an oath gate because her transportation surge matures at 5th Ideal. Some surges might even start working at range that didn't before.

But Sibling is refering OathGate Spren as their Children, and they are talking about them as Father. Also, Surge Fabrials were around before Recreance (Dalinar's Vision).

[Master Silver]

On 4/22/2021 at 3:14 PM, BenduLuke said:

I'll address Lyft first. She doesn't actually operate on stormlight, she uses Lifelight originating from cultivation not honor. That is also why she is such a good healer.

What if it was 5th Ideals that formed Soulcasters (Lightweavers, Elsecallers) or ancient fabrials that mimic the surges like oath gates (Elsecallers, Willshapers). That could be why there are a limited number of Soulcaster Fabrials available. I can see Jasnah being able to teleport on the battle field or not even need an oath gate because her transportation surge matures at 5th Ideal. Some surges might even start working at range that didn't before.

I don't remember much about the Windblades other than they exist. But a Windrunner of the fifth ideal working with an Elsecaller and Stonewarden both of the fifth ideal could have formed those. 

[BenduLuke]

On 4/26/2021 at 7:37 AM, Bzhydack said:

Basicly, ther is 16 Shards, but only 10 Surges. Some would not have one.

About emotions... Illumination comes to mind.

But Sibling is refering OathGate Spren as their Children, and they are talking about them as Father. Also, Surge Fabrials were around before Recreance (Dalinar's Vision).

Modern Rosharan's don't yet know how to make surge fabrials like soulcasters and oathgates as of RoW. They now know what they were made of. You could say Shardplate is another fabrial and so is a shardblade since surge fabrials might have been formed in a similar fashion.

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah, I think Progression pretty much has to be "Cultivation's Truest Surge" - both due to the non-suppression, and because it literally grows things, and a cultivationspren looks like a plant...

Although it bothers me that it's not exactly opposite Adhesion... Illumination is...

[mathiau]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah, I think Progression pretty much has to be "Cultivation's Truest Surge" - both due to the non-suppression, and because it literally grows things, and a cultivationspren looks like a plant...

Although it bothers me that it's not exactly opposite Adhesion... Illumination is...

It's the horizontaly symmetrical Surge to Adhesion, like Edgedancer are the horizontaly symmetrical Order to Windrunners

[cometaryorbit]

Good point. I was just thinking that when they're listed "in order" there's 3 Surges between Adhesion and Progression one way (Gravitation-Division-Abrasion) and 5 the other way.

[mathiau]

15 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Good point. I was just thinking that when they're listed "in order" there's 3 Surges between Adhesion and Progression one way (Gravitation-Division-Abrasion) and 5 the other way.

Yes but that'd be the centrally symmetrical Surge which'd be about Odium and not Cultivation

[Szeth_Pancakes]

After reviewing the list of Surges, I’m not entirely sure that any of them would be “Odium’s truest Surge.” It just doesn’t feel like there are any of them that encompass what Odium’s intent truly is. If I had to bet on what it is, however, I’d have to say Cohesion. I’m not entirely sure why; it just feels right.