How did BAM's imprisonment impact Roshar and the spren?

[+mdross81]

In Rhythm of War, both the Sibling and Kalak claim that the imprisonment of Ba-Ado-Mishram not only impacted the singers, but also impacted all of the spren.

Here's the Sibling in RoW 49:

Quote

I have ... been wounded. Thousands of years ago, something happened that changed the singers. It hurt me too.

Navani covered her shock. "You're speaking about the binding of that Unmade, which made the singers lose their forms?"

Yes. That terrible act touched the souls of all who belong to Roshar. Spren too.

And here's the relevant passages from Kalak's journal in the epigraphs from Part 4:

Quote

I was there when Ba-Ado-Mishram was captured. I know the truth of the Radiants, the Recreance, and the Nahel spren.

I tell you; I write it. You must release the captive Unmade. She will not fade as I will. If you leave her as she is, she will remain imprisoned for eternity.

As one who has suffered for so many centuries ... as one whom it broke ... please find Mishram and release her. Not just for her own good. For the good of all spren.

For I believe that in confining her, we have caused a greater wound to Roshar than any ever realized.

Note how the quotes suggest that BAM's imprisonment caused damage to Roshar itself, and by extension to those entities who souls were Connected to Roshar. To me, this suggests that the method BAM used to connect to the singers somehow exploited their Connection to Roshar. I tend to think that it was their Connection to the rhythms/songs of Roshar. Consider this WoB:

Quote

Questioner

So the Parshendi Rhythms. They talk a lot about them as like music. So do you imagine them as rhythms where they talk like this or is their a melodic quality to it? 

Brandon Sanderson

That is what they're doing. There's not very much melodic quality to it. They set songs to the Rhythms. The way I have it in the books, in my mind, and the canon, is there is Connection between them and the songs of Roshar. That they can pick up a Rhythm when there's actually not enough of it, even in a sentence, because of the intent of the Rhythm and what the other person's hearing. So they can hear a Rhythm even if it's only a couple words being said, that you couldn't learn, if you were just a human listening. No matter how good you were. Some you wouldn't be able to pick up because there is not enough information there. 

Questioner

So they're just like kind of complex rhythmic things that you could write out musically.

Brandon Sanderson

You could. You definitely could write them out.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

There's also this line from the final Eshonai flashback, when the Stormfather lets her ride the storm:

Quote

She saw creatures, plants, chasms, mountains, snows ... she passed it all. Everything.

The entire world. She saw it. Every little piece was a part of the rhythms. The world was the rhythms. And Eshonai, during that transcendent ride, understood how it fit together.

Note also that the rhythms are a cosmere-wide phenomenon that manifests in a particular way on Roshar:

Quote

Rasarr

If you took a Parshendi... And they were born outside Roshar and never visited Roshar in their lives, would they hear the Rhythms beyond Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Would they hear the Rhythms beyond Roshar... If you took one that was not born on Roshar, would they feel the Rhythms off-Roshar or just Rhythms in general?

Rasarr

Rhythms in general.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they would sense them.

Rasarr

Even beyond Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

What they are sensing... it's something that pervades the Cosmere but on Roshar has specific way of manifesting.

Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

Ok, so this all makes me think that BAM must have connected to Roshar itself in some way and it was through that Connection that she was able to Connect with the singers. The singers are Connected to the rhythms, and the rhythms are Roshar. (This fits with the listeners being spared because they were in dullform and had only a tenuous Connection to the rhythms, which we've been told are difficult to hear when in dullform).

So what about the spren? They are little pieces of Honor and Cultivation. Honor and Cultivation have Invested in Roshar. So the spren are clearly Connected to Roshar. But BAM's imprisonment did not tear our the Connection and Identity of the spren like it did the singers. How did it impact them then? What part of themselves are the spren missing with BAM still imprisoned? Whatever it is they are lacking, could it's absence be what causes them to become deadeyes now when Radiants break their oaths? (The book is not real clear on this. Kalak says deadeyes never existed before the Recreance. But we know the Recreance happened shortly after the imprisonment of BAM and shortly before the death of Honor. A lot of crem went down around the time of the False Desolation).

The only real hint we get about what's missing is from the Sibling, who says that when BAM was imprisoned they lost the ability to hear Honor's and Cultivation's tones.

I had once thought - then abandoned - but have come back around to the idea that BAM's imprisonment somehow cut off the signal or broadcast of the pure tones. In other words, before the imprisonment the pure tones emanated from Roshar itself. And entities with enough Connection to Roshar or one of the Shards could hear them. This would include the Sibling, spren more generally, the singers, and maybe Knights Radiant as well? But now, with BAM imprisoned, it's as if the tones are trapped in the Spiritual Realm and can't get through, so you need some other means of touching the Spiritual Realm in order to hear them. Here's a rundown of the times when characters are able to hear the pure tones (without someone singing them or playing them on a tuning fork or metal plate):

• Eshonai and the other soldiers who are the first to adopt warform hear Honor's tone during their transformation
• Eshonai mentions that there are stories that the first listeners to adopt workform heard Cultivation's tone
• Eshonai hears Honor's tone (along with Odium's and the Rhythm of War) when she bonds with Timbre right before her death
• Navani and Rushu catch hints of a tone and "thump" early in RoW when Dalinar opens a perpendicularity
• Venli hears an unspecified tone when she sees Rlain in the cell ("Venli felt all the rhythms freeze when she saw Rlain in the cell. Like the silence following a crescendo. ... In that silence, all of Roshar changed ... And in that silence, Venli thought she could hear something distant beyond the rhythms. A pure note.")
• Venli hears Cultivation's tone while thinking on the history of the listeners as told in her mother's songs; then she hears Odium's tone and its harmony with Cultivation's while communing with the stones of Urithiru and practicing her stoneshaping
• The Sibling is able to hear Cultivation's tone again during the climax of the battle of Urithiru, but can't find Honor's (I suspect the Sibling was able to hear Cultivation's tone again because Venli had been able to hear it while interacting with the stones of the tower)
• Navani finds Honor's tone within her just as she's about to bond the Sibling

I think that's all of them. And I think that in each instance there's something happening to bring the character into contact with the Spiritual Realm. It's definitely the case with the transformations, with the characters bonding or about to bond a spren, and when the perpendicularity is opened. The borderline ones are the two Venli ones and the Sibling. But I think that with Venli, in those moments she's feeling an intense connection to her people and their history, helped along by communing with the old stones of Urithiru. And as I mentioned above, I think that the Sibling was picking up Cultivation's tone because of Venli finding it while communing with the stones. Could also have been the bond forming with Navani. (Or maybe Cultivation herself helped out? The Sibling does say that Honor should have been able to help her when she lost the ability to hear the tones, but that he didn't because he was losing his mind).

Here's another thing. Aside from the Sibling and the stones of Urithiru, I don't think we ever hear a single spren talk about the pure tones. Doesn't that seem weird? Here's the stones in Urithiru noticing Odium's tone when Venli is using Voidlight to practice her surgebinding:

Quote

Radiant, the stones said. We have ... missed your touch, Radiant. But what is this? What is that sound, that tone?

"Voidlight," Venli admitted.

That sound is familiar, the stone said. A child of the ancient ones. Our friend, you have returned to sing our song again?

They also mention the tones once later, but we don't get any sense one way or the other of whether they can actually hear Honor and Cultivation's tones:

Quote

It felt wrong to be using his Light to practice her surgebinding, but the stones whispered that it was well. Odium and his tone had become part of Roshar, as Cultivation and Honor - who had not been created alongside the planet - had become part of it.

That's it. It just seems odd to me that we never see any other spren talking about the tones. (If I missed instances, please let me know)

The main piece of evidence against the theory that BAM's imprisonment cut off the signal of the pure tones is the fact that Infused gems are able to pick up and echo the tones. But it's very faint and requires intense focus to hear. And given that it's really the Light that is picking up and and echoing those tones, and that the Light is itself Investiture brought forth from the Spiritual Realm, I don't think it completely destroys the theory. It would be weird if Investiture itself completely lost the ability to echo it's associated tone.

As for what continuing impact the muffling or silencing of the pure tones might have on the spren, I don't really have any good theories. But if color is like flavor for spren, then maybe tones, especially the pure tones, carry some significance for them as well.

I started this post genuinely questioning what impact BAM's imprisonment had on Roshar and the spren, but in the course of writing sort of convinced myself that it has something to do with a silencing of the pure tones of Roshar. But who knows, maybe I've got it all wrong and there's some other way that BAM's imprisonment damaged both Roshar and the spren. Do folks have other theories? I'd be interested to hear them.

[Stonerward]

In my head BAM was the Spren of Rhythms from pre-shattering / Adonalsium times, who volunteered to be unmade when the singers turned to Odium as humans weren't able to hear the rhythms, if any type of spren could grant forms of power it'd be the one who is the living embodiment of the rhythms. I'm still not 100% sure how sealing her away has done what it has but it's got to be something about Connection lol

[ElMonoEstupendo]

I love this line of thought.

Navani theorises that the introduction of Odium as a true tone of Roshar stops the Sibling's Towerlight - enough of Odium's Investiture must have ended up in the planet that his tone became a part of it as much as Honor and Cultivation, causing them to shift to harmonise. But it didn't happen when BAM first started Connecting to the singers!

It happened when that Connection was snapped. At that point BAM has Invested in almost an entire race, a race intimately Connected to Roshar - my guess is that once she's cut off from them and not maintaining their forms, and they lose their minds and their spirit webs are all torn up, all that Investiture gets drained down into the planet like one giant gemstone. Especially since the transfer of Light is encouraged by sound, and their Connection to Roshar is strongly tied up with the Rhythms.

That's the reason Honor was convinced they'd destroy the planet by binding her. That's why her actions were "incredibly stupid" according to Ulim and against Odium's wishes - he didn't want to be bound to the system, so only he, who could not be captured and cut off that way, should grant forms of power.

This shifted the nature of Roshar itself, adjusting the tones to harmonise with each other, and would have affected everything Connected to the planet. The Sibling lost her Light. Even the listeners lost a lot of their non-power forms - the Rhythms must have changed.

Nale says some interesting things when talking to Venli. She guesses that it was something he did to bring across Ulim and his ilk and Nale repudiates it, indicating that voidspren could only return if there was a Connection between Roshar and Braize. He comments that he's been vigilant and careful, and that he hadn't felt Taln give in. Nale and the Skybreakers' whole deal has been finding budding Knights Radiant and shutting them down.

It seems pretty clear: the exercise of Surgebinding somehow strengthens a Connection to Braize and allows voidspren, the Fused, and Odium to return, bypassing the Oathpact. Why would Knights Radiant doing their thing cause a Connection to another planet?

The Everstorm is new. It wasn't a thing until the listeners summoned it out of Shadesmar, where it had been building up for centuries, according to Ulim. The Fused no longer need Odium to resurrect them - the storm handles it. It must arise from the Investiture BAM left in the planet itself.

My theory is this: using Stormlight via a Nahel bond also produces an amount of Voidlight, which is useless to KsR. It built up in the Cognitive Realm as the Skybreakers used Stormlight in limited amounts, and then accelerated as more spren started bonding humans - we're told they did this in response to the Everstorm approaching, but what if they unwittingly sped it up?

[+mdross81]

I wanted to note that there’s a new WoB that touches on the impact that BAM’s imprisonment had on the spren:

Quote

Pagerunner

Were all spren wounded by Ba-Ado-Mishram's capture like the Sibling was? Did it prevent them from hearing Honor's tone in the same way?

Brandon Sanderson

Alright, so first part is, were all spren wounded by it?

Pagerunner

Like the Sibling was.

Brandon Sanderson

Not all were wounded in the same way.

And no, not necessarily, to the second part.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

Seems like it might blow up my theory that imprisoning BAM did something to cut off or dampen the tones. If the imprisonment had cut off the tone I feel like that would have prevented them from hearing the tone in the same way as for the Sibling which would have yielded a yes response on the second part.

Props to @Pagerunner for getting this WoB. I’m curious if you can share with us what you thought the answer might be and whether this surprised you.

One thing that occurs to me now is that I wonder whether the fact that the Sibling is essentially manifested as the tower is relevant to the manner in which the Sibling was wounded or to the inability to hear Honor’s tone?

[Pagerunner]

1 hour ago, mdross81 said:

Props to @Pagerunner for getting this WoB. I’m curious if you can share with us what you thought the answer might be and whether this surprised you.

Funny story about that. I asked this on @Jofwu's behalf because he had something better to do than hang around at Brandon's signing table to ask questions. So he should be the one to comment.

 

[+mdross81]

10 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Funny story about that. I asked this on @Jofwu's behalf because he had something better to do than hang around at Brandon's signing table to ask questions. So he should be the one to comment.

 

Ah, thanks for the explanation then, and for your patience at the signing table.

[AquaRegia]

37 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Funny story about that. I asked this on @Jofwu's behalf because he had something better to do than hang around at Brandon's signing table to ask questions. So he should be the one to comment.

I understand the WORDS... but this sentence simply doesn't make any storming sense.  It implies that some activity exists which is better than conversing with Brandon Sanderson, and that is clearly nonsense.  Did @Jofwu suffer a head injury?

[Halyo_Alex]

1 minute ago, AquaRegia said:

I understand the WORDS... but this sentence simply doesn't make any storming sense.  It implies that some activity exists which is better than conversing with Brandon Sanderson, and that is clearly nonsense.  Did @Jofwu suffer a head injury?

"THESE WORDS ARE NOT ACCEPTED."

Or something like that.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Halyo_Alex

[Pagerunner]

1 minute ago, AquaRegia said:

I understand the WORDS... but this sentence simply doesn't make any storming sense.  It implies that some activity exists which is better than conversing with Brandon Sanderson, and that is clearly nonsense.  Did @Jofwu suffer a head injury?

All right, here's the story. Brandon's signing started on Friday (and was gonna run about 2 hours), and then Isaac had a panel showing off some White Sand art that started a little after. So nearly all the Sharders went to Isaac's panel, while I stayed behind and kept an eye on the recorders.

And wouldn't you know it, the panel was really popular, and since there was another Brandon signing on Saturday, the line was pretty much empty. So people would come right up and get their books signed, no waiting, and when no ody was there, I was sliding in with a quick question or two.

Whenever someone else showed up to get books signed, I got out of their way, which was why I got in a lot of pretty quick questions this year, but no really long ones. And while I'd step away, I'd go flex about it in the Discord chat. And jof, green with envy, DM'd me a question to ask, which I was gracious enough to do for him.

So, then the Saturday signing comes around, and there are, like, a half dozen of us hanging around this time. But the line never died down like it had on Friday. It got real close; there's be, like, one or two people left, and all the other Sharders would get real excited, but then a new group of people would come up and get in line. We did get a couple more over the day, but not a lot.

Of course, I made sure to antagonize the others as much as possible. "Oh no, more people coming? Isn't that a shame." If there were such a thing as sarcasmspren, I would have my Shardplate from the Order of Buttheads.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, mdross81 said:

One thing that occurs to me now is that I wonder whether the fact that the Sibling is essentially manifested as the tower is relevant to the manner in which the Sibling was wounded or to the inability to hear Honor’s tone?

Yeah it's rather interesting. I'm also very curious what happened with their bond to Melishi, because he had Bondsmith powers at the time of the capture, but then they got shut down, and there's this line:

Quote

"We were fortunate that no Bondsmiths existed at the time of the Recreance, though how the Sibling knew to end their bond early is a matter of dispute."

Did they cut off their bond because of the capture? Were they even conscious enough to do so? Did they actually end their bond early or were they essentially deadeyed these past couple thousand years, as Raboniel seems to indicate?

Edited July 20, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[+mdross81]

2 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Yeah it's rather interesting. I'm also very curious what happened with their bond to Melishi, because he had Bondsmith powers at the time of the capture, but then they got shut down, and there's this line:

Did they cut off their bond because of the capture? Were they even conscious enough to do so? Did they actually end their bond early or were they essentially deadeyed these past couple thousand years?

Yeah, this really feels like a Catch 22 situation.

Only thing that I can think of to resolve that is that maybe trapping an Unmade doesn’t absolutely require a Bondsmith, but just someone with a deep understanding of the Unmade.

So Melishi was required not for the mechanics of the entrapment but because of his deep understanding of Connection, similar to BAM. (For example, Shallan was able to see that Re-Shephir had been imprisoned by “a Lightweaver like Shallan, who had understood this creature.”)

If that were the case then he could have participated in the imprisonment without his bond to the Sibling. 

[Jofwu]

On 7/20/2021 at 11:29 AM, mdross81 said:

I’m curious if you can share with us what you thought the answer might be and whether this surprised you.

Yeah, so... here's my somewhat detailed thoughts...

I was definitely thinking the other spren might have been affected in a very similar way. I'm really intrigued by a line from Jasnah and Ivory in Oathbringer chapter 47:

Quote

“Ten orders,” Jasnah said. “All ended in death.”

“All but one,” Ivory agreed. “They lived in death instead.”

I'm trying to puzzle out exactly what Ivory means there. The simple interpretation is that they're just saying "the Recreance was the end of the Radiants" and "Well, for all of them but the Skybreakers." But what the heck does it mean that the Skybreakers and/or their spren "lived in death"? Sounds like deadeyes, but then that applies to ALL of them Actually, highspren were the only ones that didn't have any of their number turned into deadeyes. Furthermore, it's interesting word choice to say that Ivory "agreed" when it sounds like he's disagreeing (if only partially).

It had me wondering if the spren who were around during the Recreance were wounded. It made me think that perhaps what they're saying is Jasnah: "they all got turned into deadeyes" followed by Ivory: "Well, all but one order got turned into deadeyes.... but they were still affected (in a way that could be called "living in death") so you're not technically wrong."

Does that make sense?

Anyways. To step back from this particular quote... When Navani and the Sibling are talking about BAM's imprisonment Navani asks about other spren and the Sibling isn't able to clarify why none of them have mentioned it:

Quote

Yes. That terrible act touched the souls of all who belong to Roshar. Spren too.

“How have no spren mentioned this?”

I don’t know. But I lost the rhythm of my Light that day. The tower stopped working. My father, Honor, should have been able to help me, but he was losing his mind. And he soon died …

And of course you have Kalak's journal saying that BAM needs to be released "for the good of all spren".

So it certainly feels like BAM's imprisonment is affecting other spren. It's not entirely clear whether it directly affected ALL spren or if it just has a big enough effect that all spren are affected by the collateral damage? Like, maybe only some spren are affected, but the impact on them is effectively an issue for all spren? I tend to think ALL of them are affected, and they just aren't necessarily aware. Doesn't fit as well with the Jasnah/Ivory quote earlier, but there's one major point to make: the existence of deadeyes. As long as BAM is bound, spren can get turned into deadeyes. It affects all of them and was clearly some consequence of BAM's imprisonment.

Why? Hard to say. Why don't the spren seem to know they have been affected? Hard to say. Maybe they've just always lived under these effects (most of them) and just don't know any better? It's weird.

But I'm rambling....

I DID suspect that other spren were affected in a way similar to the Sibling. It's rather strange that they weren't. Maybe the honorspren are wrong and Melishi WAS bonded to the Sibling when it happened? Maybe the Sibling is just wrong about the cause, but I doubt that. Maybe the Sibling and BAM had a unique relationship? It's quite a puzzle.

I will say I regret not thinking through the question more clearly before sending it to Pagerunner. Because "in the same way" is rather vague. Brandon's answer doesn't say they weren't affected at all. Just that they weren't affected "in the same way". So... what "way" was the Sibling wounded exactly? Is he saying that only the Sibling was wounded such that they can't hear Honor's tone (but all the other spren still can)? Or is the Sibling's ability to hear Honor's tone something unique to the Sibling and thus not an affect they would experience regardless?

At least the second half is somewhat clear? Not all spren were affected by BAM--at least not directly. I'm curious for that to be clarified. Which ones were affected and which ones weren't?

On 7/20/2021 at 1:28 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Yeah it's rather interesting. I'm also very curious what happened with their bond to Melishi, because he had Bondsmith powers at the time of the capture, but then they got shut down, and there's this line:

Did they cut off their bond because of the capture? Were they even conscious enough to do so? Did they actually end their bond early or were they essentially deadeyed these past couple thousand years, as Raboniel seems to indicate?

@Pagerunner and I were talking about that over the weekend. He referenced the quote about no Bondsmith being around and we toyed with the idea that Melishi was actually Ishar. That would explain how he could do magic after unbonding the Sibling. The name certainly fits. Feels really odd to me that the Sibling wouldn't know or mention that they were bonded to a Herald though. That's just... all kinds of weird. I don't like this.

But perhaps Melishi was using Ishar's Honorblade. I haven't been able to go research whether this is possible. Szeth is surprised that Ishar has it at the end of RoW, so it hasn't been missing for centuries.... But hey, the Shin were just one nation among the others during the Recreance, so perhaps they simply loaned it out to Melishi and then took it back into their possession?

[LewsTherinTelescope]

26 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

But what the heck does it mean that the Skybreakers and/or their spren "lived in death"?

I mean... they've made it their duty to go around killing every other Radiant.

27 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Furthermore, it's interesting word choice to say that Ivory "agreed" when it sounds like he's disagreeing (if only partially).

Way I take it is basically

"Ten orders. All ended in death."

"Well for one of them it was everyone else's death, not their own, but yeah, lots of death."

28 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Is he saying that only the Sibling was wounded such that they can't hear Honor's tone (but all the other spren still can)?

Worth keeping in mind they did not just lose Honor's tone, they lost both. Based on what they say about how Honor could have helped them if he weren't dying, I assume the reason they can hear Cultivation's now is she did something to restore it. (I've actually wondered if this might be why Odium was able to finally land the killing blow on Honor, Cultivation overextended herself trying to repair the damage and coudn't attack Odium when he finally exposed himself during the strike.)

Doesn't necessarily change anything directly for the WoB, but it's relevant for theorizing.

37 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

As long as BAM is bound, spren can get turned into deadeyes. It affects all of them and was clearly some consequence of BAM's imprisonment.

Tbh I still have absolutely NO idea what the heck about it could be doing this. It's so weird as a side-effect. Like, does it result in the part of the spren being ripped out, more than would happen before? Or did that always happen but BAM's existence would have somehow repaired them? Why are they not affected until they make a bond? Why are even spren born AFTER her capture still effected? Like... it's just SO weird.

42 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Maybe the Sibling and BAM had a unique relationship?

My conspiracy brain is running real hardcore on this, and I do not like it... lmao. 

43 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

He referenced the quote about no Bondsmith being around and we toyed with the idea that Melishi was actually Ishar. That would explain how he could do magic after unbonding the Sibling. The name certainly fits. Feels really odd to me that the Sibling wouldn't know or mention that they were bonded to a Herald though. That's just... all kinds of weird. I don't like this.

Stormfather would also have to not know, since he mentions learning things from Melishi, and that Melishi was starting to see the lines. And presumably most of the spren would have to not, since Dreaming-though-Awake has learned Nale and Kalak were present, and you'd think leaving out the fact that the dude doing it was Ishar would be a major omission when counting the Heralds there. So yeah, I doubt it, personally.

46 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

But hey, the Shin were just one nation among the others during the Recreance, so perhaps they simply loaned it out to Melishi and then took it back into their possession?

I think that's possible, but did the other nations even know they had them? Feels like it'd be harder to keep the Heralds' betrayal secret once you start questioning why all but Taln left their swords behind. 

[+mdross81]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this @Jofwu and for asking the question of Brandon.

Fwiw, I had the same interpretation of the Jasnah/Ivory line about "lived in death" as @LewsTherinTelescope. That the Skybreakers lived surrounded by death because of all the killing they did.

I can see how using the Honorblade potentially gets you around the issue of Melishi no longer having Bondsmith powers (assuming he and the Sibling agreed to break their bond). But then why would the third emerald in the gem archive say "It would require a special prison. And Melishi."? Anyone could have used the Honorblade. I suppose it's possible that the Shin lent the blade specifically to Melishi, but that feels like a stretch.

For now, despite the WoB, I'm doggedly sticking to the ideas that BAM accomplished her connection to all of the singers by connecting with Roshar itself, and that the wounding of the spren (whatever it was) came from them also being connected to Roshar. To that end, someone on Discord recently brought to my attention this line from RoW 75 where Vaiu is talking to Adolin about the gathering of deadeyes outside Lasting Integrity:

Quote

"There is a Connection happening," Vaiu said. "Deadeyes cannot think, but they are still spren - bound to the spiritweb of Roshar herself."

You're right about the vagueness of the "in the same way" language. So maybe it's just that the Sibling was more significantly Connected to Roshar than your average spren, and so was more impacted by BAM's imprisonment.

[Jofwu]

2 hours ago, mdross81 said:

But then why would the third emerald in the gem archive say "It would require a special prison. And Melishi."? Anyone could have used the Honorblade. I suppose it's possible that the Shin lent the blade specifically to Melishi, but that feels like a stretch.

The special prison refers to the gem they captured her in. (but I guess you're not asking that)

As for "why Melishi", my guess would be because he is the only one knowledgeable enough about the magic involved. The Honorblade gives anyone Bondsmith powers, but that doesn't mean they know how to use them. I imagine whatever they did was a little bit complicated (probably not as simple as dealing with the Thrill, if only because BAM is sapient) and I imagine Melishi had the prerequisite experience with his Surges.

I definitely don't think you should toss out the idea that BAM was... Connected to all of the spren in some way? The nahel spren at least? Or something like that? The fact that they become deadeyes now isn't coincidence. I expect that the issue here is the "in the same way" bit. They definitely may have been affected. Just "not in the same way"... whatever that means exactly.

2 hours ago, mdross81 said:

"There is a Connection happening," Vaiu said. "Deadeyes cannot think, but they are still spren - bound to the spiritweb of Roshar herself."

Now THAT is a spicy quote to keep our eyes on. I definitely think that's key to understanding what happened with BAM. Nice.

[+mdross81]

57 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

The fact that they become deadeyes now isn't coincidence. I expect that the issue here is the "in the same way" bit. They definitely may have been affected. Just "not in the same way"... whatever that means exactly.

Do you think the fact that the Sibling has basically manifested themself as a giant fabrial in the physical realm could account for the difference in the impact?

[LewsTherinTelescope]

4 hours ago, mdross81 said:

You're right about the vagueness of the "in the same way" language. So maybe it's just that the Sibling was more significantly Connected to Roshar than your average spren, and so was more impacted by BAM's imprisonment.

I wonder what exactly the Sibling is the spren of... Is it just raw Investiture with a mind but no concept, unlike every other Radiant spren? Is it the soul of the physical tower? Etc. The answer might be related.

[+mdross81]

6 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I wonder what exactly the Sibling is the spren of... Is it just raw Investiture with a mind but no concept, unlike every other Radiant spren? Is it the soul of the physical tower? Etc. The answer might be related.

Good question. Best guess is that it has to do with the relationship between humans and spren. From RoW 110:

Quote

The common ground, the Sibling said. Between humans and spren. That is … that is why I was created, so long ago.…

The other line that comes to mind is from the Eila Stele referencing the gods of spren, stone, and wind. Stone and wind seem like cultivation and honor. Maybe the sibling is the spren of spren?

[LewsTherinTelescope]

22 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

The other line that comes to mind is from the Eila Stele referencing the gods of spren, stone, and wind. Stone and wind seem like cultivation and honor. Maybe the sibling is the spren of spren?

I doubt it, because the Sibling probably didn't exist yet. It was created for the war against Odium, and according to the Sibling in the quote you posted was to be the common ground between spren and humans, so even if it was made during the short period between the Ashynite arrival and the outbreak of war, I don't think the singers would be terribly surprised that the Sibling sided against them.

(Personally, I've liked the idea it's BAM, SF, and NW, but there's not a lot to go off for BAM to be totally sure.)

[+mdross81]

9 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Personally, I've liked the idea it's BAM, SF, and NW, but there's not a lot to go off for BAM to be totally sure.)

There’s not a lot to go on, but I like it as well. In particular I recall the WoB you got on the linguistics of the name lends some support.

Makes one wonder if the Sibling wasn’t a replacement of sorts after BAM was Unmade. But H & C got smarter the second go-round, so they housed the Sibling inside a big tower full of Knights Radiant.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

9 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

There’s not a lot to go on, but I like it as well. In particular I recall the WoB you got on the linguistics of the name lends some support.

Makes one wonder if the Sibling wasn’t a replacement of sorts after BAM was Unmade. But H & C got smarter the second go-round, so they housed the Sibling inside a big tower full of Knights Radiant.

Yeah, I've had similar thoughts, but I've never managed to come up with enough details for a proper theory. But I do think it's possible, and that if it's true, that could be part of why the Sibling was especially affected, if the two were Connected strongly.

(I've also liked the idea that, after their gods sided against them [or at least refused to help them, not necessarily directly took action against them], some of the Fused unmade BAM/aided Odium in doing so somehow as a sort of revenge strike, and that's why the spren finally entered the fight against them and refused to bond them, and is why both sides view it as a betrayal: the singers view the spren and Shards not helping them as joining their invaders and attackers, while the spren view the "death" and corruption of the crucial spren that was BAM as a horrific crime. But this is mostly headcanon for now, since we know so little about that time.)

[+mdross81]

8 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I've also liked the idea that, after their gods sided against them [or at least refused to help them, not necessarily directly took action against them], some of the Fused unmade BAM/aided Odium in doing so somehow as a sort of revenge strike, and that's why the spren finally entered the fight against them and refused to bond them, and is why both sides view it as a betrayal: the singers view the spren and Shards not helping them as joining their invaders and attackers, while the spren view the "death" and corruption of the crucial spren that was BAM as a horrific crime. But this is mostly headcanon for now, since we know so little about that time

I’ve spent a bunch of time this week trying to piece together how the singers might have betrayed the spren. So I feel like I can fairly confidently say that this is as solid a theory as any I’ve seen/come up with. All we really know is that it happened a long time ago, it wasn’t as bad a betrayal as the Recreance, and at least some of the singers (Leshwi) feel like it was bad enough to require forgiveness.

The through line of the singers’ sense of betrayal really seems to be outrage that the spren bonded with and granted Surgebinding to humans. So the idea that they might have then helped corrupt BAM in a way that allowed her to eventually provide forms of power and Voidlight to singers feels consistent.

It has the added appeal of the singer betrayal eventually contributing to the human betrayal (assuming that horror over what the imprisonment of BAM did to the singers played at least some role in prompting the Recreance).

[Inquisitor #5]

On 2021-07-22 at 7:11 PM, mdross81 said:

But then why would the third emerald in the gem archive say "It would require a special prison. And Melishi."?

 

On 2021-07-22 at 9:52 PM, Jofwu said:

The special prison refers to the gem they captured her in. (but I guess you're not asking that)

As for "why Melishi", my guess would be because he is the only one knowledgeable enough about the magic involved.

 

On 2021-07-20 at 7:42 PM, mdross81 said:

So Melishi was required not for the mechanics of the entrapment but because of his deep understanding of Connection, similar to BAM. (For example, Shallan was able to see that Re-Shephir had been imprisoned by “a Lightweaver like Shallan, who had understood this creature.”)

Quote

So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address.

I've personally felt that the same statement of requiring a special prison and Melishi, could easily be restated to apply to to the capture of Nergaoul as well, as "It will require a special prison. And Dalinar Kholin." 

What the prison is is obvious, and Dalinar thinks about it as being the same as capturing an ordinary spren, draw it in with something it knows well.

In that case Dalinar (and Melishi) are the bait for an Unmade. From this comes the question, what does Melishi have that Mishram wants? What does Mishram want? Mishram wants to be a god (of some description.) What would legitimise Mishram's divine status? A Bondsmith. All the other divine spren have them. This especially fits if Mishram was indeed the original sprenspren.

My personal theory is that Melishi might have offered Mishram a Bondsmith, himself, severing the Sibling's bond and allowing Mishram to take their place, then turning the resultant power back on her, trapping her. This also fits thematically to me, as a Radiant attacking their own spren just clicks with the incredible wrongness of the capture of Mishram, along with definitely betraying unite instead of divide.

I also wish to note how the Sibling feels remarkably poorly informed about what exactly transpired for someone who helped Melishi do it, lending credence to the idea that their bond was severed before the capture.

I'm also very on board with the idea that Mishram has/had a deep Connection to Roshar, otherwise the backlash wouldn't have been so severe. In fact, she almost has to be the spren of spren, if she can facilitate forms of power.

 

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[+mdross81]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

In that case Dalinar (and Melishi) are the bait for an Unmade. From this comes the question, what does Melishi have that Mishram wants? What does Mishram want? Mishram wants to be a god (of some description.) What would legitimise Mishram's divine status? A Bondsmith. All the other divine spren have them. This especially fits if Mishram was indeed the original sprenspren.

My personal theory is that Melishi might have offered Mishram a Bondsmith, himself, severing the Sibling's bond and allowing Mishram to take their place, then turning the resultant power back on her, trapping her. This also fits thematically to me, as a Radiant attacking their own spren just clicks with the incredible wrongness of the capture of Mishram, along with definitely betraying unite instead of divide.

I like the way you've framed this as Melishi and Dalinar serving as bait for the Unmade they were seeking to imprison.

And that's an interesting theory about BAM wanting a Bondsmith. A bond with a Bondsmith kinda feels like a downgrade from the bond she had with Odium. Then again, Odium is probably a jerk to work for, and apparently the bond between Odium and the Unmade is cut off during an Isolation (see the Sja-anat interlude). So maybe in that circumstance a bond with a Bondsmith starts to look good.

[Inquisitor #5]

14 hours ago, mdross81 said:

A bond with a Bondsmith kinda feels like a downgrade from the bond she had with Odium.

Well, the standard Bondsmith spren don't give up their ties to the parent Shard(s) when bonding a Bondsmith.

I also think that Mishram might have wanted a Bondsmith as a release valve of sorts, as it's possible that she wasn't able to fully control her use of Connection, which I'd say tracks with it not being a known ability of hers, per the gem archive. This might have led to her getting in too deep, connecting too strongly.

In any case I can definitely see having a Bondsmith being a step towards strengthening a claim to legitimacy.

 

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