Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Oltux72

What is language?

9 posts in this topic

Connection lets you understand and speak languages. The most impressive feat came from Venli when she understood the returning Fused in Oathbringer. How indirectly can this ability work?

  • If she finds a book in an extinct language, can she read it, because the author and readers understood it?
  • If the speaker does not know what he or she is saying, i.e. an actor giving a phonetically learned speech, will she understand it?
  • If the speaker intends not to be understood, like in the cases rare languages are used for secure radio communication or a message is written in code, will she understand it?
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:
  • If she finds a book in an extinct language, can she read it, because the author and readers understood it?
  • If the speaker does not know what he or she is saying, i.e. an actor giving a phonetically learned speech, will she understand it?
  • If the speaker intends not to be understood, like in the cases rare languages are used for secure radio communication or a message is written in code, will she understand it?

1) If she is Connected to the author?  Yes.  
From what I understand... connection is connection.  And while we've seen connection in terms of language, that doesn't mean it isn't deeper than that.  If it was only languages, it would be called "languages" instead of "connection."  It's just that understanding language is part of understanding a person.  You have to understand them to be connected to them. And if you're connected, and they understand it, you understand it.  
2) No.
Unless they are connected to the writer of the speech.  If they are connected to the speaker, they would only understand what the speaker understood.
3) Yes
Whether the speaker is obfuscating or not, the connection is what the speaker understands.  In the case of, a code, well, that's just another type of language.  If it was clear as language to the speaker, the connected person would understand the same language as the speaker-- the code.  
I'm not as sure on this one, because of the implications of how much the Cosmere runs on *intent* and how important intent is.  But it feels right.  Connection being understanding, if the "target" understands it, so will you.

Unofficially in my opinion.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, vonnegut said:

1) If she is Connected to the author?  Yes. 

Necromancy?

2 hours ago, vonnegut said:


From what I understand... connection is connection.  And while we've seen connection in terms of language, that doesn't mean it isn't deeper than that.  If it was only languages, it would be called "languages" instead of "connection."  It's just that understanding language is part of understanding a person.  You have to understand them to be connected to them. And if you're connected, and they understand it, you understand it.  

But are you connected to the person or ist the person merely or facultatively a pointer to the land. Can you get a language from an inanimate object?

2 hours ago, vonnegut said:


2) No.
Unless they are connected to the writer of the speech.  If they are connected to the speaker, they would only understand what the speaker understood.

What happens if you are connected to somebody who understands it because he learned the language naturally?

2 hours ago, vonnegut said:


3) Yes
Whether the speaker is obfuscating or not, the connection is what the speaker understands.  In the case of, a code, well, that's just another type of language.  If it was clear as language to the speaker, the connected person would understand the same language as the speaker-- the code.  

 

So if it was encoded by hand, you'll understand it, but a machine used to encode would make it imcomprehensible?

2 hours ago, vonnegut said:

I'm not as sure on this one, because of the implications of how much the Cosmere runs on *intent* and how important intent is.  But it feels right.  Connection being understanding, if the "target" understands it, so will you.

The target would presumably understand how to decode it and would understand the result, but has not understood or decoded the language.

 

And one more bonus question. Can you connect to your past self? That is if you record yourself speaking a language acquired by connection, will you understand yourself later?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Necromancy?

But are you connected to the person or ist the person merely or facultatively a pointer to the land. Can you get a language from an inanimate object?

I dont think so, Hard to say, on one hand it seems to be a living Spiritweb-related, Consciousness thing. Dalinar was Connect to the Person.  On the other hand, the relevant Connection in the Metallic Arts seems more Person-To-homeland and allow the person side to be scaled and/or transferred.  But in all cases there is a living Consciousness involved that Knows the Language, and I think that is a key ingredient. I dont think you can get it from an inanimate object because I dont think Inanimate, non-sapient objects are innately Invested enough to have the appropriate sorts of Connection. I think you are more or less piggy-backing the Language region of their Spiritweb via the investiture Connection.

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

What happens if you are connected to somebody who understands it because he learned the language naturally?

That's precisely what Dalinar does. Im guessing it is more or less what Hoid does, so presumably it has similar limitations with idioms and certain concepts (Coin vs Sphere, etc).  Correlary is that it's likely the same mechanism that was letting Dalinar speak the Dawnchant out loud while in the Visions. 

A corollary to that is what would have happened if Dalinar had tried his Language trick to learn to Read?  Given how Spoken language and written language are supposedly* a whole different region of the brain, I suspect he would at minimum had needed to Learn A written language first.  Now Im curious if he will get Both written and verbal languages with a single Connection action, or if he'll need to consciously Connect to one or the other.  

 

*(I say Supposedly because I only know this from Hollywood) 

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Quantus said:

I dont think so, Hard to say, on one hand it seems to be a living Spiritweb-related, Consciousness thing. Dalinar was Connect to the Person.  On the other hand, the relevant Connection in the Metallic Arts seems more Person-To-homeland and allow the person side to be scaled and/or transferred.  But in all cases there is a living Consciousness involved that Knows the Language, and I think that is a key ingredient. I dont think you can get it from an inanimate object because I dont think Inanimate, non-sapient objects are innately Invested enough to have the appropriate sorts of Connection. I think you are more or less piggy-backing the Language region of their Spiritweb via the investiture Connection.

That's precisely what Dalinar does. Im guessing it is more or less what Hoid does, so presumably it has similar limitations with idioms and certain concepts (Coin vs Sphere, etc).  Correlary is that it's likely the same mechanism that was letting Dalinar speak the Dawnchant out loud while in the Visions. 

A corollary to that is what would have happened if Dalinar had tried his Language trick to learn to Read?  Given how Spoken language and written language are supposedly* a whole different region of the brain, I suspect he would at minimum had needed to Learn A written language first.  Now Im curious if he will get Both written and verbal languages with a single Connection action, or if he'll need to consciously Connect to one or the other.  

 

*(I say Supposedly because I only know this from Hollywood) 

 

 

Visual word form area in the left fusiform gyrus. It correlates to the more famous fusiform face area, which recognizes faces. VWFA is hypothesized to remember written words by their shape. This allows us to recognize words faster.

Note that hyperlexic children are noted to have more activity in the VWFA, as opposed to most people who utilize more phonetic areas. I would be interested in learning is this is true for children who learned to read using the whole language method as well as those who learned phonetic reading.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Visual word form area in the left fusiform gyrus. It correlates to the more famous fusiform face area, which recognizes faces. VWFA is hypothesized to remember written words by their shape. This allows us to recognize words faster.

Note that hyperlexic children are noted to have more activity in the VWFA, as opposed to most people who utilize more phonetic areas. I would be interested in learning is this is true for children who learned to read using the whole language method as well as those who learned phonetic reading.

Awesome! Thanks!  This is definitely how I experience reading, though I was never sure how typical it was. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Awesome! Thanks!  This is definitely how I experience reading, though I was never sure how typical it was. 

Are you hyperlexic? I am, but I don’t know many others who are. Hyperlexics recognize words by shape to a greater degree than neurotypical individuals.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/21/2021 at 4:56 AM, Oltux72 said:

Necromancy?

LOL, I don't think so much Necromancy as true understanding.  Although, when thinking about this, I was thinking about Dalinar speaking the Dawnchant with Nohadon in a vision, and whether the language benefits in the Honor visions were using Connection to some extent, rather than just being "I'm a God-Shard, so I can just turn on auto-translate for Vision Purposes."  

Because Honor didn't just make everyone speak Alethi so that Dalinar could understand it-- Dalinar was understanding and *speaking* in dead languages.  But that's a tangent.

I'm wondering if Dalinar could connect with Nohadon, or someone else in a vision, so thoroughly that he could actually translate a language *outside* of a vision.  

On 4/21/2021 at 4:56 AM, Oltux72 said:

But are you connected to the person or ist the person merely or facultatively a pointer to the land. Can you get a language from an inanimate object?

Hmm.  Well in the case of what's-his-name Southern Scandrial mask guy with the hot choc, he specifically said that he was connected to the land itself (in a way that his history was rewritten, so that he was still *himself* but tricked himself into having been raised in the Basin.... which now that I think about it, is rather like what Shai did in the Emperor's Soul).  But in the case of the Ire's magic ball that Kelsier stole, that gave an ability to connect to a person/force/Shard, Preservation.  And when Dalinar is having one of his big monarch meetings in Urithiru, iirc, he connects to one of the Azish people to be able to hear their language... but they aren't in their land at the moment.  So that argues towards connection with that particular person.

So from different worlds, we see Connection to the land... to a Shard/force... and to an individual.

You could connect to an inanimate object, maybe?  But not get language from it, because inanimate objects don't talk?  I don't know.

 

On 4/21/2021 at 4:56 AM, Oltux72 said:

So if it was encoded by hand, you'll understand it, but a machine used to encode would make it imcomprehensible?

Unless you connected to the machine :lol: Which is a creepy idea.  

 

On 4/21/2021 at 4:56 AM, Oltux72 said:

And one more bonus question. Can you connect to your past self? That is if you record yourself speaking a language acquired by connection, will you understand yourself later?

I have no idea, LOL, but it does make me think of Gold.  On the other hand, making a recording of speech would put the machine back into it.  

I have a feeling that intent, and the specific focus of the Connection, is what matters.  Like, to go back to a previous question, if you were connected to the land itself, and a person was phonetically reading something *from that land* without understanding it, YOU would understand it, because of the focus of the connection.  But if you were focused on that PERSON and they didn't understand it, neither would you.

Maybe.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

On 4/21/2021 at 11:58 AM, Oltux72 said:

Connection lets you understand and speak languages. The most impressive feat came from Venli when she understood the returning Fused in Oathbringer. How indirectly can this ability work?

  • If she finds a book in an extinct language, can she read it, because the author and readers understood it?
  • If the speaker does not know what he or she is saying, i.e. an actor giving a phonetically learned speech, will she understand it?
  • If the speaker intends not to be understood, like in the cases rare languages are used for secure radio communication or a message is written in code, will she understand it?

1) If she can find the appropriate Connection, yes. Spiritwebs linger on in the Spiritual Realm for a while, before dissolving. Although it's not confirmed, I think how long a Spiritweb can linger on has to do with the Spiritweb's Connections to the world. The screams Szeth hears, Dalinar hearing Evi's voice & possibly him talking to Nohadon, and one of my favourite scenes from RoW. Basically, so long as there's some lingering attachment, so long as someone remembers them, a part of them lives on. So, if the book was really important to the author, there might be a Connection there that can be used to decipher it.

2) I don't think so. There is no communication going on there, no language, only sounds. Connection will not help if the person on the other end themselves cannot understand what they're saying. That what they're saying can have meaning or that they intend to transfer that meaning doesn't matter in this case.

For Connection to work in this case would require a language to be it's own thing, that can exist separate from its users and I don't think a language by itself exists as a sort of platonic ideal somewhere in the Spiritual Realm.

When an Invested art taps into a land to allow it's user to be able to speak its language they're Connecting to a general collective consensus (you have no idea how long it took to find a term other than "general idea" to use here, which I didn't want to use to get away from the concept of the Platonic Ideal Realm), kind of like the spren do with humanity (we hear more of this in RoW in regards to a certain spren). Because it's more mechanical, it results in gaps sometimes when concepts do not translate across cultures, like Hoid saying coin or soil instead of spheres and rock. I think how this works is that it's basically like a general Connection to a group of individuals who all share a common Connection, and a common identity. I think Connections are what forms Identity, hence the term Spiritweb.

3) Intent is important in the Cosmere. So, if the person making the Connection is the person speaking in code, it might be possible to not transfer meaning to the person on the other end of the Connection. Unless the Invested Art they're using is itself built to always transfer meaning.

If the person who's speaking in code is not the person making the Connection, then the Connection should work. Since the person speaking does understand what they're saying, that meaning will transfer along the Connection same as any other sounds-codified-with-meaning/language.

Edited by Honorless
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.