Odium’s champion discussion

[Andy92]

2 minutes ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

Ouch. Just fyi, that is a quote box

I was in the process of fixing it and was too late getting my edit in...sorry about that one. 

[Szeth_Pancakes]

That's ok.

[Quick Ben]

One thing to note in this discussion is Todium says something along the lines of "oh i see how to beat Dalinar, so subtle" when he is reviewing the deal Rayse made.

So the way he thinks he can beat Dalinar is subtle, or something done very very subtly.

Given that i think an obvious champion can be ruled out, which rules out majority of theories

Also i think the way Todium saw to beat Dalinar doesn't necessarily refer to the contest at all, at end of the day win or lose, Todium is trapped in Rosharan system, so ideally for Todium he would want a way to get Dalinar to renege on the contract, thus setting Todium free while also getting hin Dalinar as a fused. 

Also i think narratively, for the back 5 books, it makes sense for Dalinar to lose.

[+mdross81]

3 hours ago, Quick Ben said:

Also i think the way Todium saw to beat Dalinar doesn't necessarily refer to the contest at all, at end of the day win or lose, Todium is trapped in Rosharan system, so ideally for Todium he would want a way to get Dalinar to renege on the contract, thus setting Todium free while also getting hin Dalinar as a fused.

This seems exactly right to me. So it’s worth thinking about just what would constitute reneging on the contract; what Dalinar and Todium are required to do or refrain from doing under the agreed upon terms such that failing to do so would be failing to perform on the contract. Seems to me there’s three things:

1. On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour, they each send a willing champion;
2. They have to refrain from doing anything to harm the other’s champion before the day/time of the contest; and
3. the champions have to then participate in a contest to the death

So reneging would look like one of these:

1. Failing to send a willing champion;
2. harming the other side’s champion before the day/time of the contest; or
3. A champion refusing either to begin the contest in the first instance or to continue the contest to the death of one of the champions

With these options in mind, and bearing in mind that Shards cannot see the hearts of those who act, what did Todium see that he thinks will put Dalinar in a position where he will inevitably break the terms? I really mean that as an open question to everyone because I can’t see what it might be.

One thing that I’ve seen in these discussions that I do want to clarify, however, is what I see as some incorrect/imprecise language in referring to the child champ theory, which is all about number 3 above, as a draw. The contract doesn’t speak to a draw at all; it has no provisions for what happens in the event of a draw. Refusing to begin the contest - or to finish the contest once it’s begun - because the opposing champion is a child is breaking the contract, not a draw. (I’m skeptical of the child champ theory, but I do think that if it happens it will constitute breaking the contract)

This is not to say that a draw isn’t possible. A draw would be a situation where both champions participate in the contest but neither are able to kill the other, not because of a refusal or unwillingness to do so, but because of some reason beyond their control. Something like impossibility or mutual incapacitation. But again, the contract just doesn’t say what happens in this instance, so it’s not correct to say that a draw would void the contract and free Todium.

[Szeth_Pancakes]

I have a new theory! I think that Tod's (y'know, Todium) champion will be... (drumroll.mp3) TOD!

"Wait, why, Mr. Szeth_Pancakes?"

Here's why.

In-World Reasoning

Tod is a godlike being who has access to a humongous pool of Investiture that is his Shard. So, who would be better to send as his champion than, well, himself? We know from HoA that a Shard is EXTREMELY difficult, if not impossible, to "beat" without another Shard. And we know that Odium can take another Shard in combat (well, at least when Rayse was holding it), since he's splintered three shards - Honor, Devotion, and Dominion - without taking any fatal "injuries." So, there would be nothing in the way of Tod completely murdering Dalinar he moment he sets his eyes on him, unless (hint hint wink wink) Dalinar can Ascend and become the Vessel of Honor. And even then it would be a tough fight, and Dalinar might have to sacrifice himself Vin-style to be able to defeat Tod.

Meta-Reasoning

Dalinar and Taravangian are foils for one another. We've seen this when they interact in OB and RoW. So, it would make complete sense for the BIG CLIMAX (which I'm assuming is the Contest) be them fighting one another. And if they end up canceling each other out (like Vin and Ruin in HoA), then that would be, like, symbolism! I think. Anyway, don't you think this makes sense? If not, please reply, 'cause I want to hear your reasoning.

byeee

[Sp00ks]

On 4/26/2021 at 4:11 PM, Szeth_Pancakes said:

I have a new theory! I think that Tod's (y'know, Todium) champion will be... (drumroll.mp3) TOD!

It's certainly possible, and it makes a lot of sense. One could maybe make the argument that its "against the spirit of the agreement", but Dalinar specifically said he'd be his own, so that's a tough sell. And it definitely makes the most sense, its a very "safe" option to more or less guarantee a win. I doubt Rayse would have done it because of pride, but Taravangian probably would not care. 

However, it just doesn't seem right to me, narratively. Yes, the two characters are obviously foils, but fighting directly against a shard is a pretty hopeless fight. And since Dalinar will probably lose, it just seems like a kind of weak ending to this first arc. Plus, when Taravangian was thinking over the agreement, the way it was written, it sorta felt like he was going to do something really smart to deal with this situation, not just vaporize poor Dalinar with the full power of a shard. Though, perhaps there are some restrictions on Shards fully manifesting in the physical realm? Maybe that would make it more fair? 

I think this could work if Odium was still pretending to be Rayse, then says Taravangian is his champion. Dalinar thinks it should be an easy fight, at least in a physical sense, and its only after the fight really starts does Dalinar learn that the fight is hopeless

[Bejarden]

18 minutes ago, Sp00ks said:

I think this could work if Odium was still pretending to be Rayse, then says Taravangian is his champion. Dalinar thinks it should be an easy fight, at least in a physical sense, and its only after the fight really starts does Dalinar learn that the fight is hopeless

Seeing as they think Taravangian is dead that is highly  unlikely

[Halyo_Alex]

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Seeing as they think Taravangian is dead that is highly  unlikely

Would be all the more of a shock to them when he seemingly shows up just fine.

"You died?"

"Sadly, yes... But I lived!!"

which isn't even wrong...

[RedBlue]

I don’t know about Taravangian as champion, but I feel like he has to reveal himself to Dalinar at some point before the contest is over. There’s very little sense in setting up a philosophical foil to Dalinar and having scenes where they debate their differences, only to not have a proper talk at the big showdown, whatever form that takes.