Odium’s champion discussion

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Ramza1890 said:

I was thinking it might be a Herald as well and I think Ishar would be the obvious choice but what if, and here me out, it was Taln?

RoW heavily featured d Ishar's skill but just a passing mention about Taln's incredible prowess. Brando wanted us to see that Ishar would be more than a match for Dalinar's champion so that the reader would believe him a realistic candidate and hopefullyshift focus away from other Heralds.

Odium and Taln were alone on Braize for centuries who knows what insidious thoughts or mentalities Odium inflicted upon Taln and there were no other Heralds there to witness any collusion. What if Taln is some sleeper agent now for Odium and Odium blocked away that section of Taln's mind/memory?

That doesn't make sense for a number of reasons, Taln doesn't have a hole in his soul, so Odium can't mind control him, Taln sounds like he really cares about fighting Odium, and he's the protagonist for the back five.

[Szeth_Pancakes]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Taln doesn't have a hole in his soul

Wait, why do you say that? I'd say Taln's extreme trauma from the Desolations and being tortured on Braize for four and a half millenia just might count as a "hole" in his soul. (Please tell me if this makes no sense. I didn't get enough sleep last night)

---

On another note, I think the discussion on Gavilar on the Gavilar theory thread has me extremely convinced that Gavilar will be Odium's champion. Why? Well, Gavilar is the perfect mix of a few character traits that Odium is probably going for in his champion.

Emotional drama - This one is pretty self explanatory. If, as he heavily implied in RoW, Dalinar is going to be his own champion, this would cause quite a bit of conflict in him with, y'know, Gavilar being his brother. This is where the El theory is lacking. Despite being extremely imposing and morally out of whack (is this a phrase?), he has gotten very little screen time, and Dalinar would have no hesitancy in killing a Fused whom he barely knows.

Strength - However, if Dalinar works out his moral dilemma about killing his brother, he also has to face him in combat. Gavilar wasn't as strong as Dalinar when he was fully alive, but who knows what he did in order to come back. Voidbinding? AnTiSuRgEbInDiNg?/??? Anyway, this is largely an unknown factor. Brandon could make Gavilar as strong as he needs to me to make it a fight that draws the readers' attention. This is where the "child champion" theory lacks substance. If Dalinar gets over his unwillingness to do what needs to be done, Odium would be screwed. 

Evil Nature - Gavilar didn't seem that evil... up until the RoW prologue. There, we see him in his full awfulness, and know that this guy, he sucks. Bad. Anyway, this is pretty self explanatory. Odium would want someone hateful. Probably. This is probably the most questionable category, but it is my personal belief that the final battle should be against someone who's at least a little bit gray morally. This is where my Shallan theory fails. Shallan is a good person, despite her insistences that she isn't.

For more on why Gavilar is going to come back in the first place, see the Gavilar thread. I'm going to go read some Shadows of Self. Good night.

[Frustration]

21 minutes ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

Wait, why do you say that? I'd say Taln's extreme trauma from the Desolations and being tortured on Braize for four and a half millenia just might count as a "hole" in his soul. (Please tell me if this makes no sense. I didn't get enough sleep last night)

Hemalurgy style hole.

[Szeth_Pancakes]

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

Hemalurgy style hole.

Ah yes, ok. I was thinking a “hole” that would let Odium “take” Taln’s pain, like he did with Moash.

[Quick Ben]

Why not Navani for Odiums champion ?

Shes already shown shes willing to work with the enemy, Dalinar would have a hard time fighting her,

So Odium somehow gets Gavinor, and threatens to kill him unless Navani consents to be his champion, could also fulfill that deathrattle everyone assumes to be about the contest of champions (although personnally i don't think it does). I know its far fetched but could be a good angle to go

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Why not Navani for Odiums champion ?

Shes already shown shes willing to work with the enemy, Dalinar would have a hard time fighting her,

So Odium somehow gets Gavinor, and threatens to kill him unless Navani consents to be his champion, could also fulfill that deathrattle everyone assumes to be about the contest of champions (although personnally i don't think it does). I know its far fetched but could be a good angle to go

It has to be a willing Champion.

[Quick Ben]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It has to be a willing Champion.

She would be willing to be the champion, albeit under duress, 

If being Odiums champion cant include being tricked or threatened etc then just leaves El or Nale, 

[Andy92]

El seems to make the most sense currently imo. He’s even trying to get on Taravangian‘s good side quickly.

Quote

Yes, I look forward to ruling the humans. Nearly as much as I look forward to serving you, newest Odium. Who was so recently one of them. You understand. And you are the one I’ve been waiting to worship.

Couple this with the fact that El doesn’t want to destroy humanity, he wants to repurpose them as an army to (seemingly) conquest the Cosmere with, it fits right into Taravangian’s motives to “save” everyone. 

Edited April 25, 2021 by Andy92

[Szeth_Pancakes]

1 hour ago, Andy92 said:

El seems to make the most sense currently imo. He’s even trying to get on Taravangian‘s good side quickly.

Couple this with the fact that El doesn’t want to destroy humanity, he wants to repurpose them as an army to (seemingly) conquest the Cosmere with, it fits right into Taravangian’s motives to “save” everyone. 

I don't think it's going to be El. Brandon usually does a good job of intertwining each character's emotional plot with the overall plot of the story, so he isn't going to choose a champion that will have no emotional impact on Dalinar when they fight. He's the perfect candidate in virtually every other way, but I just don't see how Odium's champion could be someone who has barely gotten any page time.

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

I don't think it's going to be El. Brandon usually does a good job of intertwining each character's emotional plot with the overall plot of the story, so he isn't going to choose a champion that will have no emotional impact on Dalinar when they fight. He's the perfect candidate in virtually every other way, but I just don't see how Odium's champion could be someone who has barely gotten any page time.

That would be a lot of wasted setup then

[Andy92]

54 minutes ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

I don't think it's going to be El. Brandon usually does a good job of intertwining each character's emotional plot with the overall plot of the story, so he isn't going to choose a champion that will have no emotional impact on Dalinar when they fight. He's the perfect candidate in virtually every other way, but I just don't see how Odium's champion could be someone who has barely gotten any page time.

The crossover of characters who could actually win the duel, would side with Odium, and are emotionally tied to Dalinar is pretty small. Heralds could win the duel, but they aren’t emotionally invested with Dalinar. A lot of the characters emotionally close to Dalinar don’t fit the bill of willingly siding with Odium. 

The Gavilar cognitive shadow thing potentially works if that’s the route Brandon wanted to go with him. I just feel like El’s setup in RoW points towards him being the champion. 

[Szeth_Pancakes]

19 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

The crossover of characters who could actually win the duel, would side with Odium, and are emotionally tied to Dalinar is pretty small. Heralds could win the duel, but they aren’t emotionally invested with Dalinar. A lot of the characters emotionally close to Dalinar don’t fit the bill of willingly siding with Odium. 

The Gavilar cognitive shadow thing potentially works if that’s the route Brandon wanted to go with him. I just feel like El’s setup in RoW points towards him being the champion. 

Not necessarily. He could oppose Shallan in her search for BAM, for one. I think that the champion should at least have a connection (or Connection) to Dalinar, since this is probably the BIG DALINAR Climax, which, knowing Brandon, must include some emotional strife. 

[Andy92]

1 hour ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

Not necessarily. He could oppose Shallan in her search for BAM, for one. I think that the champion should at least have a connection (or Connection) to Dalinar, since this is probably the BIG DALINAR Climax, which, knowing Brandon, must include some emotional strife. 

I think it should be someone who Odium thinks can actually win a duel against Dalinar. For one, if Shallan was on the path to become a villain, she would have murdered Kalak and took his place at the trial to throw it in Adolin’s favor. 

Second, Shallan can’t beat the Blackthorn in a duel. Illusions would only get her so far, she’s not well trained in Soulcasting, and she isn’t a duelist. 

The one I can get behind in regards to someone being close to Dalinar is Gavilar. If his cognitive shadow survived and Odium promised him a way back into the physical realm, I could feasibly see him using one of the Parshendi bodies to fight like the Fused do. 

[Bejarden]

5 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

I think it should be someone who Odium thinks can actually win a duel against Dalinar. For one, if Shallan was on the path to become a villain, she would have murdered Kalak and took his place at the trial to throw it in Adolin’s favor. 

Second, Shallan can’t beat the Blackthorn in a duel. Illusions would only get her so far, she’s not well trained in Soulcasting, and she isn’t a duelist. 

The one I can get behind in regards to someone being close to Dalinar is Gavilar. If his cognitive shadow survived and Odium promised him a way back into the physical realm, I could feasibly see him using one of the Parshendi bodies to fight like the Fused do. 

I would find it extremely Anti-climatic if the duel rested purely on people fighting.    There needs to be some spiritual aspect to it since Dalinar is trying to get away from fighting 

I don’t think there will be even a sword in the duel     Gavilar would work if not for some problems with it.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I would find it extremely Anti-climatic if the duel rested purely on people fighting.    There needs to be some spiritual aspect to it since Dalinar is trying to get away from fighting 

I would be upset if it were soemthing else

[RedBlue]

1 hour ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

I think that the champion should at least have a connection (or Connection) to Dalinar, since this is probably the BIG DALINAR Climax, which, knowing Brandon, must include some emotional strife.

I agree that Dalinar’s big climax needs to have high emotional involvement. But I don’t think this rules out El. Stormlight books are long, and there would be plenty of room to set up an interesting dynamic between El and Dalinar. It worked for Raboniel and Navani.

[Szeth_Pancakes]

4 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

I agree that Dalinar’s big climax needs to have high emotional involvement. But I don’t think this rules out El. Stormlight books are long, and there would be plenty of room to set up an interesting dynamic between El and Dalinar. It worked for Raboniel and Navani.

This is true, but I think this needs to be something that Dalinar's character has been working towards the entire series, not just something that is specific to KoW.

[Frustration]

Dalinar already had his climax in OB, KoW is Szeth's book.

[Szeth_Pancakes]

19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Dalinar already had his climax in OB, KoW is Szeth's book.

That's true, but KoW was originally going to be Dalinar's book, and RoW had almost no character development on Dalinar's part. I think that KoW will be heavy on Dalinar, even though he isn't going to be the flashback character. It's kind of like RoW, where Venli was the flashback character, but the book was also heavy on Navani and Kaladin character development.

I am a crewleader now! Thanks to the one who gave me reputation!

Edited April 25, 2021 by Szeth_Pancakes

[RedBlue]

24 minutes ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

This is true, but I think this needs to be something that Dalinar's character has been working towards the entire series, not just something that is specific to KoW.

Unless I’m missing something obvious (which is entirely possible), there is only one still living character with whom Dalinar has had an adversarial relationship spanning multiple books, and that’s Taravangian. Even if it took Dalinar until book 4 to realise that Taravangian was a bad guy. 

[Szeth_Pancakes]

1 minute ago, RedBlue said:

Unless I’m missing something obvious (which is entirely possible), there is only one still living character with whom Dalinar has had an adversarial relationship spanning multiple books, and that’s Taravangian. Even if it took Dalinar until book 4 to realise that Taravangian was a bad guy. 

Yes, but it could be somebody who has a close connection, but not an adversarial relationship with Dalinar. Like, say, Gavilar! (Or Gavinor, but... let's not go there.)

[RedBlue]

22 minutes ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

Yes, but it could be somebody who has a close connection, but not an adversarial relationship with Dalinar. Like, say, Gavilar! (Or Gavinor, but... let's not go there.)

Yes, Odium’s champion could be somebody with whom Dalinar has an established but non-adversarial relationship. But doesn’t that run into the same issue of set up? It would be a bit of a left turn if (for example) Gavilar turned up and now Dalinar has to deal with the fact that his brother is secretly evil. It would also be a bit out of left field if a character on Dalinar’s side (like Szeth or Adolin) were somehow manipulated into being Odium’s champion.

I’m not saying those things can’t happen, but it seems to me that those are not fights that Dalinar has spent the whole series building towards. 

[Szeth_Pancakes]

48 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

Yes, Odium’s champion could be somebody with whom Dalinar has an established but non-adversarial relationship. But doesn’t that run into the same issue of set up? It would be a bit of a left turn if (for example) Gavilar turned up and now Dalinar has to deal with the fact that his brother is secretly evil. It would also be a bit out of left field if a character on Dalinar’s side (like Szeth or Adolin) were somehow manipulated into being Odium’s champion.

I’m not saying those things can’t happen, but it seems to me that those are not fights that Dalinar has spent the whole series building towards. 

Well, I don't think he's been building toward them the entire series, but they certainly would be more emotionally dramatic that a fight with El.

[Andy92]

1 hour ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

Well, I don't think he's been building toward them the entire series, but they certainly would be more emotionally dramatic that a fight with El.

I get where you’re coming from but I do think there’s plenty of time to set El up more in the next book. I’d rather see Dalinar go against a new villain than against someone who has been close to him throughout the series and is now turning against him (like Navani or one of his kids). 

If it’s a character that we’ve known about since book one, I’d be down for Gavilar, Nale, or Ishar. I’d rather not have another fantasy series with...

Game of Thrones spoilers:

Spoiler

Dany pulling a 180 and murdering everyone lol 

Edited April 26, 2021 by Andy92

[Szeth_Pancakes]

Ouch. Just fyi, that is a quote box