RoW's implication for the duration and purpose of the Recreance

[+Oltux72]

We chose.

You may look at this as significant in a moral sense, but it also contains information. The most important implication is that they did not know about deadeyes. We must assume, though we are not explicitely told, that the capture of Ba-Ado-Mishram caused them to form.

That means we must forget the psychological explanation for the Recreance. It never made much sense. If you do not know about deadeyes the human side of the Knights Radiant cannot end their orders. Spren are immortal. They could just rebond. If you made the common decision to end them, you'd literally do nothing and let time and old age solve your problem. So the Spren together with the physical beings decided.
Nor would they have chosen so unanimously. If you look at modern Radiants like Jasnah, a significant number among the Radiants must have considered wiping out the Singers to be a stroke of luck, not a tragedy. Problem solved forever and gotten a useful addition to the work force.

But how long did it last? I'll be up front: hours, possibly even just minutes, at most a few days. Why?
No deadeyes means no dead Blades. That means that surely if this takes weeks or longer some of the Knights left over would have investigated those Blades without any precedent. And that means that they would have heared the Scream. And that is incompatible with the Spren being surprised with the consequences of the Recreance. (Yes, Maralayam could have been among the very first group. That is against all likelihood. That is grasping at straws.)

So why did they do it? It seems to me that the temporal connection to the capture of Ba-Ado-Mishram is too close to be random chance. I propose that the Recreance was an arcane ritual designed to mitigate or reverse the damage done by the capture of Ba-Ado-Mishram. They knew something we do not know and they were in a hurry.

[Leuthie]

They all broke bonds at once, by agreement. All Radiants and spren decided to end the Knights Radiant. To make sure no one kept their powers, they all broke at once. The Skybreakers were to break after assuring that all others did before them, a police force bound by Oath and Law, with 5th Ideal Skybreakers the final group to break their bonds. Of course, they didn't break their bonds after seeing that spren were dying. Hence, the Skybreakers remained behind.

Actually, the Skybreakers may have been left behind to make sure that no one ever tried to be a Radiant again, with no intention for that order to break bonds. Hence Nale's crazy quest to kill all budding Radiants.

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

20 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

But how long did it last? I'll be up front: hours, possibly even just minutes, at most a few days. Why?
No deadeyes means no dead Blades. That means that surely if this takes weeks or longer some of the Knights left over would have investigated those Blades without any precedent. And that means that they would have heared the Scream. And that is incompatible with the Spren being surprised with the consequences of the Recreance. (Yes, Maralayam could have been among the very first group. That is against all likelihood. That is grasping at straws.)

Note that we're explicitly told all the honorspren were killed in one single day. So yeah, it was fast.

[Bejarden]

When?

[LewsTherinTelescope]

13 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

When?

RoW 87:

Quote

“The Ancient Daughter was in a catatonic state,” Amuna said, “and was spared. But every other honorspren—every single one—had answered the call of the Radiants during the False Desolation. Can you understand the magnitude of that tragedy, Highprince Adolin? The murder of an entire species, all in one day? Absolute extermination, performed by the most intimate of friends?

[Bejarden]

3 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

RoW 87:

I wouldn’t  take that literally. 
2 things

1: Feverstone keep was probably a vast majority of Windrunner and they would probably consider this all of them since it’s been thousands of years and for the sake of conversation they might just say that’s all of them.

2: They don’t have the best concept of time since they’ve been alive for thousands of years so a few weeks or months could seem like one day to them.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

11 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

1: Feverstone keep was probably a vast majority of Windrunner and they would probably consider this all of them since it’s been thousands of years and for the sake of conversation they might just say that’s all of them.

I feel like there's kind of a very important distinction there.

12 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

2: They don’t have the best concept of time since they’ve been alive for thousands of years so a few weeks or months could seem like one day to them.

That is.... kind of a very massive mistake to make, especially considering there are a lot of spren around who were alive back then to correct them.

[Bejarden]

4 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

That is.... kind of a very massive mistake to make, especially considering there are a lot of spren around who were alive back then to correct them.

I’m not saying it’s a mistake it’s just their perception.

one day, 2 weeks, 3 years what’s the difference when you’ve been alive for thousands

6 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

 

19 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

1: Feverstone keep was probably a vast majority of Windrunner and they would probably consider this all of them since it’s been thousands of years and for the sake of conversation they might just say that’s all of them.

I feel like there's kind of a very important distinction there

 

I’m saying that they know that there were more on other days they just don’t see it as that noteworthy to say that there were a few dozen or say holdouts in a few hundred Radients.

We see from the trial that they aren’t so concerned with absolute truth and always being completely honest. ( setting up Adolin to fail with tricks)

[mathiau]

12 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

one day, 2 weeks, 3 years what’s the difference when you’ve been alive for thousands

Same difference as when you've been alive for one hundred.

12 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

( setting up Adolin to fail with tricks)

When did they do that?

[Leuthie]

We've established that the broken bonds leading to the sprens' deaths was mutual, correct? We've also established that the spren did not know they would die. We've also established that the goal wasn't to kill spren (assumption: the spren bond would inform the spren of this intent).

While news doesn't spread instantly on Roshar, the discovery that breaking bonds leads to a dead spren should spread fast enough for some members of some orders to avoid that fate. Even if it wasn't everyone breaking bonds at once, it was at least quick enough that news couldn't spread to other areas. Only the Skybreakers were spared, and I contend they weren't part of the first wave to be an enforcement team.

My point is, the Recreance was effectively all at once.

[Aither of Olumpia]

In Dalinar’s vision where we see the Recreance, surely the Windrunners there would have shown more surprise to their spren staying as swords when they walked away?

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood]

17 minutes ago, Aither of Olumpia said:

In Dalinar’s vision where we see the Recreance, surely the Windrunners there would have shown more surprise to their spren staying as swords when they walked away?

tis true, maybe they were too sad, or maybe they already knew. 

[Bejarden]

9 hours ago, mathiau said:

When did they do that?

They would have someone scream something out then get ejected from the courtroom.

they had coordinated attacks on him in the trial.

5 hours ago, Leuthie said:

We've established that the broken bonds leading to the sprens' deaths was mutual, correct? We've also established that the spren did not know they would die. We've also established that the goal wasn't to kill spren (assumption: the spren bond would inform the spren of this intent).

While news doesn't spread instantly on Roshar, the discovery that breaking bonds leads to a dead spren should spread fast enough for some members of some orders to avoid that fate. Even if it wasn't everyone breaking bonds at once, it was at least quick enough that news couldn't spread to other areas. Only the Skybreakers were spared, and I contend they weren't part of the first wave to be an enforcement team.

My point is, the Recreance was effectively all at once.

Maybe they didn’t realize there was something else that was supposed to happen. They broke the bond and then a blade was there, there was no way to know this meant a Spren died. Not even the screams would have told them that.

It was probably inconceivable to think that a spren could become a Deadeye. 
It was only a few weeks, or even months or years later when deadeyes started to appear in the CR that they realized what was happening.

[drunkenbotanist]

On 4/19/2021 at 2:25 AM, Oltux72 said:

 "damage done by the capture of Ba-Ado-Mishram. They knew something we do not know and they were in a hurry.

Worth considering that although he's not very reliable, Nale was convinced that radiants coming back would lead to another desolation, even just another "False" desolation.

 

Worth keeping open the possibility that radiants existing in some way gave BAM the ability to start a false desolation, or made it more likely and that was part of the decision to abandon their oaths at the same time as capturing BAM

 

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

10 hours ago, mathiau said:

When did they do that?

I mean they literally arrested the judge and installed the prosecution's lawyer in his place.

22 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I’m saying that they know that there were more on other days they just don’t see it as that noteworthy to say that there were a few dozen or say holdouts in a few hundred Radients.

There's no reason to emphasize it was all in one day if it's not, then. Specific wording was used.

[Bejarden]

24 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I mean they literally arrested the judge and installed the prosecution's lawyer in his place.

There's no reason to emphasize it was all in one day if it's not, then. Specific wording was used.

I disagree, they don’t need to use the exact wording but maybe we can compromise.

Maybe Lasting integrity got updates every 3-6 months on what’s going on with the Honorspren.

The Recreance happens for around 8 months LI then goes and investigates and find every Honorspren is a deadeye.

This now hits them as one day everyone is gone since they got hit with the news all in one day.

.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

29 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I disagree, they don’t need to use the exact wording but maybe we can compromise.

Maybe Lasting integrity got updates every 3-6 months on what’s going on with the Honorspren.

The Recreance happens for around 8 months LI then goes and investigates and find every Honorspren is a deadeye.

This now hits them as one day everyone is gone since they got hit with the news all in one day.

.

Literally every single honorspren except Syl was bonded (and only then because Relador died recently), and so were large portions of other species, and there was a war going on they were actively involved with. I don't think they were only getting updates every few months.

[Bejarden]

Well why not? 
since every Honorspren is bonded they don’t have a need an update so often. They’ve done all they could. They’re taking a backseat.

Only after the Honorspren didn’t ‘check in’ did they get worried.

[mathiau]

4 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Well why not? 
since every Honorspren is bonded they don’t have a need an update so often. They’ve done all they could. They’re taking a backseat.

Only after the Honorspren didn’t ‘check in’ did they get worried.

Since every Honourspren is bonded there was no one to update.

The oldest Honourspen alive other than Syl are younger than the Recreance and were almost certainly told about it by the Stormfather, who would know how things went.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

6 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Well why not? 
since every Honorspren is bonded they don’t have a need an update so often. They’ve done all they could. They’re taking a backseat.

Only after the Honorspren didn’t ‘check in’ did they get worried.

Because there's still all the other spren species???

[Bejarden]

Well we’re only talking about Honorspren right?

[mathiau]

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

Well we’re only talking about Honorspren right?

Sprens communicate with each other, typically Honoursprens and the Stormfather often communicate cause he's kind of their father.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Well we’re only talking about Honorspren right?

Considering all the honorspren alive at a time they could have witnessed it died, I assume the current ones got their information from a combination of the other societies and the Stormfather.

Edited April 22, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[Bejarden]

Which could have gotten the story messed up in the telling.

Also we know there are other spren in LI that are not Honorspren so they could have been doing the day to day stuff there.

Either way I don’t think that line is any proof if y’all don’t agree that’s fine.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Bejardin1250