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The Night of Sorrows


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Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

I don’t know I could be wrong. But that was the impression I got

I would rather not spend another hour discussing this point so I’ll take your word for it

Nothing was promised in the case of a draw (the didn't even seem to consider it as a possibility) so I don't see why anything would happen if there's a draw

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Can you immagine that?

We get the duel we have this huge buildup and then it's 

"oh no a child, I lose"

Yeah, if it's a child Dalinar will kill them, in tear but he'll do it

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4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Can you immagine that?

We get the duel we have this huge buildup and then it's 

"oh no a child, I lose"

Well it be better. With some emotional stuff I guess.

Brandons a better writer than me he’ll figure it out

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Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

Well it be better. With some emotional stuff I guess.

Brandons a better writer than me he’ll figure it out

There is no way I can frame it that I wouldn't hate.

2 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Yeah, if it's a child Dalinar will kill them, in tear but he'll do it

That would kind of defeate the purpose of his conversation with Taravangian about the Hogsmen

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I think I’ve laid out my reasons why it’s the best move nothing anyone has said has been really persuasive.

So unless you want to add something productive I’ll consider the matter closed

11 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

yeah, by not having a storming child for odium's champion.

 

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Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

I think I’ve laid out my reasons why it’s the best move nothing anyone has said has been really persuasive.

So unless you want to add something productive I’ll consider the matter closed

 

If Odium wins the duel, he still has to stay locked on Braize. If he loses, he has to stay locked on Braize. The only outcome that hasn't been specified in the terms of the contest is a draw. How is a child champion supposed to draw against Dalinar? Either Dalinar refuses to fight and Odium stays locked on Braize but with his forces remaining on Roshar, or Dalinar regretfully kills the child champion and Odium and his forces are locked away on Braize completely.

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3 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

How is a child champion supposed to draw against Dalinar? Either Dalinar refuses to fight and Odium stays locked on Braize

Who says that Odium will be locked on Braise if the largest piece of Honor, who is able to release him, breaks his direct word and contract against him.

Its far more likely that that will void all agreements than simply trap Odium on Braise

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Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

Who says that Odium will be locked on Braise if the largest piece of Honor, who is able to release him, breaks his direct word and contract against him.

Its far more likely that that will void all agreements than simply trap Odium on Braise

Dalinar knows what is at stake. He will not void the terms of the contest unless someone truly outwits him. A child champion is not going to "outwit" Dalinar in the sense of being the cause for him to void the contest. Either he is willing to die, or willing to kill the child. He has no reason to endanger literally the entire Cosmere just because Odium picks a child for his Champion.

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2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

So maybe TOdium just wins.

Im sure he’s fine with that

Either way Dalinar goes, Odium Reigns

Heres a Death Rattle ( slightly Paraphrased)

”So the night will reign for the choice of honor is life”

Okay but that's not what you were arguing before.

maybe I'm just tired of arguing about a child champion. <_<

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3 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Okay but that's not what you were arguing before.

maybe I'm just tired of arguing about a child champion. <_<

That’s true, point taken.

Im kinda burned out from the last 24 hours from talking about this, and I was in school for 13 hours right before this. I honestly can’t remember what I was saying before but the gist is: There will be a child that will emotionally affect Dalinar

Details will be forthcoming as I craft a strong theory covering the points people have raised here

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Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

That’s true, point taken.

Im kinda burned out from the last 24 hours from talking about this, and I was in school for 13 hours right before this. I honestly can’t remember what I was saying before but the gist is: There will be a child that will emotionally affect Dalinar

Details will be forthcoming as I craft a strong theory covering the points people have raised here

Alright, fair. I think everyone's gotten a bit exhausted mincing words at this point.

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9 minutes ago, Timm said:

Is there anything preventing TOdium from representing himself? Dalinar said that he will be his own champion so why not TOdium?

He can't directly touch most people, and with enough Anti-light Dalinar could likely kill Taravangian, so it wouldn't be the smartest move.

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I think that the "child" is really a metaphor for a crying or weeping person and I think that Szeth is this person.

What we know about book 5:

1. It's Szeth's flashback book.

2. Szeth and Kaladin are going to Shinovar.

3. Taravangian's Diagram indicates one or more Unmade has set up in Shinovar.

4. Szeth hears those he killed when he shuts his eyes.

I think that the Unmade in Shinovar is Dai-gonarthis and this Unmade is what is causing Szeth's hallucinations. 

Quote

Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-gonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it!

Szeth and Kaladin may confront this Unmade when they are in Shinovar.

A child is also mentioned in another deathrattle:

Quote

A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears.

The only three people that I think are strongly tied to their homeland are Dalinar, Szeth and the Stormfather. I think that this does not refer to the Stormfather so I will skip him (even though he does seem like a baby sometimes). Both Alethkar and Shinovar have mountains nearby, but Shinovar does have a lot more of them. Szeth is also more likely to be on top of the mountains since he can fly. Also his birthplace is the Valley of Truth, a place that sounds like it could be prone to a flood.

This would lead me to believe that Szeth is the child in this deathrattle:

Quote

I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw. 

And that they will choose to not kill him.

Quote

So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life...

Also an interesting bit of foreshadowing if this is true:

Quote

 

What I am owed will come to me eventually! Every bit of it. I will drown in it, stonewalker! 

-Szeth to Dalinar

 

I also think it is funny that they only thing that has been retconned in the books is the taking back that Kaladin killed Szeth in WOR and making it a psuedo-suicide instead. If my theory is correct then the pre-retcon story would not make sense because why would Kaladin be allowed to kill Szeth before in WOR but they cannot now? That question gets eliminated with the retcon.

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2 hours ago, Timm said:

Is there anything preventing TOdium from representing himself? Dalinar said that he will be his own champion so why not TOdium?

My understanding is that Shards cannot directly physically harm mortals.  Thus we get all the manipulation, influencing and deal-making.  If Odium could use all his god-level power directly on his enemies, why would he need a Champion?  He wouldn't even need an ARMY.

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4 hours ago, CROSSENuUP said:

That question gets eliminated with the retcon.

Since Kaladin and everyone else tried really hard to kill him, and for a really good reason I think it’s really the same as if he did  

, I don’t think Dalinar has enough sympathy for him to refuse to kill him.

I guess Szeth could win... but that doesn’t fit with the Deathrattle you want to use, 

And if Szeth kills him with Nightblood that doesn’t really help TOdium since Dalinar will be truly gone

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Gavinor wouldn't be a willing champion.

I don't think TOdium cares about winning the contest. Alethkar and Herdaz vs Dalinar's soul? These stakes are small, and it was Rayse who negotiated them. He seems pretty happy that the agreement will restore peace to Roshar one way or another.

His whole train of thought is to arrange matters so that, no matter the outcome, he's satisfied. I expect that while the whole world is focused on the duel at its outcome, he will have been making other arrangements that make who wins the contest almost irrelevant.

On re-reading the agreement, it interestingly binds Odium to cease hostilities and enforce the peace and not work against Dalinar or his allies in any way, but it doesn't bind Dalinar to do the same. Weird. Anyway, he could do stuff like seize territory just beforehand, or break up the coalition somehow so that all Dalinar controls is Urithiru, Alethkar, and Herdaz.

The technicalities of the wording are a little odd too - Odium must return Alethkar to Dalinar, but Dalinar gave up any right to rule Alethkar or to become a highking...

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4 minutes ago, LordFlea said:

What if this referred to Hoid?

Hoid is unable to fight, neither sides will nominate him champion

Quote

Or even Todium. That seems like something he would wrestle with.

It's too likely Dalinar will use Nightblood/send Szeth and Nightblood for that

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