Green chicken

The Night of Sorrows

100 posts in this topic

A while back when I was rereading WOR, I realized that the death rattle "So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life..." likely refers to the Night of Sorrows. This didn't mean much to me, until I noticed this quote from Dawnshard:

"I like the Bondsmith, for example, though I know he will destroy us. He will not, Zyadril sent. Its buzz was punctuated and sharp. He has made the decision of honor. That is why he will destroy us, Yelamaiszin replied. He is more dangerous now, not less.

Combined with the death rattle "I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw." It seems plausible that Odium will choose a "suckling child" as his champion, and Dalinar will refuse to kill the "suckling child" which would prevent the end of the war. Since the Coalitions would be expecting the war to end, they wouldn't be able to effectivly fight back, and could potentially suffer large losses. I don't think that the "suckling child" will be an actual child. Instead, I think that "suckling child" is a metaphor for someone who can't fight back. For example, someone like Rysn would be a "suckling child". 

   

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4 hours ago, Green chicken said:

Since the Coalitions would be expecting the war to end, they wouldn't be able to effectivly fight back, and could potentially suffer large losses. I don't think that the "suckling child" will be an actual child. Instead, I think that "suckling child" is a metaphor for someone who can't fight back. For example, someone like Rysn would be a "suckling child". 

   

Odium would run an insane risk. He cannot be sure Dalinar will fight himself. If he sent Szeth or Jasnah, a Shardblade would be swung and you'd lose without a fight.

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And not only that it would be bad for the story, we spent litterally millions of words building up to this massive conflict a battle for tha ages and it's a baby, that would be.... disappointing

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If I had a penny every time Frustration complained about the child theories...

7 hours ago, Green chicken said:

Combined with the death rattle "I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw." It seems plausible that Odium will choose a "suckling child" as his champion, and Dalinar will refuse to kill the "suckling child" which would prevent the end of the war. Since the Coalitions would be expecting the war to end, they wouldn't be able to effectivly fight back, and could potentially suffer large losses. I don't think that the "suckling child" will be an actual child. Instead, I think that "suckling child" is a metaphor for someone who can't fight back. For example, someone like Rysn would be a "suckling child". 

   

Yeah a popular guess is Gavinor. Which would be great character growth for Dalinar.

It would help him take responsibility for his actions if a child thinks he’s a monster.

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

He cannot be sure Dalinar will fight himself. If he sent Szeth or Jasnah, a Shardblade would be swung and you'd lose without a fight.

Which may be why TOdium is trying to figure out who Dalinars champion is...

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16 hours ago, Green chicken said:

A while back when I was rereading WOR, I realized that the death rattle "So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life..." likely refers to the Night of Sorrows. This didn't mean much to me, until I noticed this quote from Dawnshard:

"I like the Bondsmith, for example, though I know he will destroy us. He will not, Zyadril sent. Its buzz was punctuated and sharp. He has made the decision of honor. That is why he will destroy us, Yelamaiszin replied. He is more dangerous now, not less.

Combined with the death rattle "I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw." It seems plausible that Odium will choose a "suckling child" as his champion, and Dalinar will refuse to kill the "suckling child" which would prevent the end of the war. Since the Coalitions would be expecting the war to end, they wouldn't be able to effectivly fight back, and could potentially suffer large losses. I don't think that the "suckling child" will be an actual child. Instead, I think that "suckling child" is a metaphor for someone who can't fight back. For example, someone like Rysn would be a "suckling child". 

   

I have one issue with this theory. Highlighted below.

16 hours ago, Green chicken said:

Combined with the death rattle "I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw." 

No matter how the contest of champions end, the result is there is a "ceasefire" between the two sides, hostilities end, so the "gain us further breath to draw" doesn't actually stack up with what the outcome would be.

So i don't see how that death rattle applies to the contest at all.

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I 100% agree.  I don't think Brandon literally mean a "suckling" child.  I'd guess that it's more metaphorical.

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On 4/18/2021 at 6:46 AM, Quick Ben said:

I have one issue with this theory. Highlighted below.

No matter how the contest of champions end, the result is there is a "ceasefire" between the two sides, hostilities end, so the "gain us further breath to draw" doesn't actually stack up with what the outcome would be.

So i don't see how that death rattle applies to the contest at all.

The only way out of the cease fire is for the contest to end in a draw or not end. In which case Odium can fight until the contest is decided. He knows Dalinar won't kill a child. Remember the Rift. 

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A few points.

Either way there is a ceasefire no matter who wins.

And how exactly will a child kill Dalinar.

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On 4/21/2021 at 5:30 PM, Bejardin1250 said:

A few points.

Either way there is a ceasefire no matter who wins.

And how exactly will a child kill Dalinar.

It’s a battle to the death, not to the killing . If Dalinar refuses to kill it, when he eventually dies of old age, it will be complete.

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On 22/04/2021 at 1:30 AM, Bejardin1250 said:

A few points.

Either way there is a ceasefire no matter who wins.

And how exactly will a child kill Dalinar.

That's the point, what if no one wins?

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5 minutes ago, basement_boi said:

It’s a battle to the death, not to the killing . If Dalinar refuses to kill it, when he eventually dies of old age, it will be complete.

Well that won’t happen I assume unless this will go into book six as there is only a 15 year timeskip

 

5 minutes ago, mathiau said:

That's the point, what if no one wins?

What would the scenario be for no one winning?

The contest has to be less than 15 years, probably (hopefully) and if it drags out that’s fine. So death of old age is ruled out

The only way to tie is to both die a the same second. Which is very unlikely.

If Dalinar refuses to fight I assume Taravangian will go free. He could just stand on the tower for 15 years but that would be pretty Anti-climactic. So I assume we won’t know what will happen for the next few years.

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1 hour ago, basement_boi said:

It’s a battle to the death, not to the killing . If Dalinar refuses to kill it, when he eventually dies of old age, it will be complete.

 

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

That's the point, what if no one wins?

 

An excitng and fullfilling conclusion for an over a million word series that has taken around thirteen years IRL to complete, that would be a horrible way to end the book.

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15 hours ago, Frustration said:

 

 

An excitng and fullfilling conclusion for an over a million word series that has taken around thirteen years IRL to complete, that would be a horrible way to end the book.

I agree. But there is still a possibility.

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17 hours ago, Frustration said:

An excitng and fullfilling conclusion for an over a million word series that has taken around thirteen years IRL to complete, that would be a horrible way to end the book.

Oh if the duel end in a draw it won't be at the end of the book

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That would be even worse. 3 years of pent up anticipation and nothing happens?!

SA would become another Keeper of the Lost Cities, never ending and nothing happening 

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3 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

That would be even worse. 3 years of pent up anticipation and nothing happens?!

SA would become another Keeper of the Lost Cities, never ending and nothing happening 

What were you answering too?

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8 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Oh if the duel end in a draw it won't be at the end of the book

 

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Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

 

I meant "because it will happen in the middle of the book" and other things will happen after

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Oh thought you meant book 6

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42 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Oh if the duel end in a draw it won't be at the end of the book

Then how will it end?

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Just now, Frustration said:

Then how will it end?

How would I know?

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Just now, mathiau said:

How would I know?

We have spent over a decade saying that we need a contest of Champions, most of the wins where used to secure a contest, why would it end with anythign else?

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35 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Then how will it end?

Maybe BAM being freed and a WoA type thing happening?

 
I do see a strong possibility of the Champion duel being the part 2 plot twist which would allow for a child champion.

I think the end of the book has to have a strong lead off into book 6 and win or lose the duel probably won’t have that. The stakes aren’t high enough.

BAM being freed however could sow some real chaos across Roshar and give us a real twist on the Recreance.

But I also see the possibility of BAM being the part 2 twist and have some other twist at the end of the duel which would probably mean someone like Szeth will be the Champion.

As it can go either way I don’t think we’ll know definitely until some WoBs come out or KoW

Bottom line is we probably need 2 twist minimum in KoW 1: a Recreance twist 2: a twist in the duel.

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Maybe there is a proper contest of champions that Dalinar wins, and the plot twist comes in some loophole Taravangian found in the deal that allows something to happen when he loses that was not accounted for. 

I don’t have any real theories for this other than thinking it would leave an interesting ending if things look good for everyone at first and a twist happens after the duel. 

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2 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I think the end of the book has to have a strong lead off into book 6 and win or lose the duel probably won’t have that. The stakes aren’t high enough.

Why does it need a strong setup for book six?

Book six is a completly different arc.

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