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Has Honor been splintered?


Oltux72

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I keep reading speculation about who will pick up the Shard of Honor. However, it looks to me like nobody bothers to first address the greatshell in the room: Does it even exist in a unified manner anymore?
If so. why did Odium leave it unsplintered? And the Day of Recreance happened a long time ago. Tanavast died before that. Why hasn't Honor become sentient?

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Honour is splintered, but it doesn't matter

Quote

Questioner

Can it be restored? The Splinters...

Brandon Sanderson

Um, Splinters, can they be restored to... So it is, that is a yes, but restoring them will not restore Honor, the Vessel of Honor, right. They would restore Honor the Shard if this were to happen, but a new Vessel would have to take it.

Questioner

Ok so, [Adonalsium] can be put back together?

Brandon Sanderson

Adonalsium? It is theoretically possible to put a Shard back into, you know, to meld Shards together. The fact that we have already seen someone meld powers, in Sazed. So yes, but the question is who or what was Adonalsium, and is putting it back together going to do anything? Or...

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)
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  • 3 weeks later...

WoB is that Honor was Splintered. But he was excited by the question, and I think I know why.

First, a note: I'm pretty sure Honor died in a protracted manner shortly after the Recreance.

The trouble is, Odium was bound in Braize at the time. This was the very end of the False Desolation; Taln and the Oathpact still held strong; Ba-Ado-Mishram had been bound shortly before (suspiciously shortly before); there were no Fused; there was no Everstorm.

So how did Odium Splinter Honor?

One possibility is Tanavast went to Braize, in his madness. But there's zero evidence of any Splinters of Honor on Braize, and the Stormfather inherited much of Tanavast's Shadow and power.

The other possibility is, stay with me here... he Splintered himself. Or even, Cultivation Splintered him. He was going mad at the end - perhaps it was an act of self-sacrifice, which seems in keeping with Honor.

Does anyone know of any canon source that says it was actually Odium that did it? Because I can't find one.

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1 hour ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

Does anyone know of any canon source that says it was actually Odium that did it? Because I can't find one.

At the end of TWoK in the last vision to Dalinar. It’s when he realizes the visions are recordings and not actual live events. It’s actually the last line of the book before the epilogue. 

Quote

And now I am dead. Odium has killed me. I am sorry.

This depends on how much you trust the accuracy of the visions being from Honor himself, but that’s the in-world reasoning. 

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1 hour ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

Does anyone know of any canon source that says it was actually Odium that did it? Because I can't find one.

I mean, there's Tanavast himself in WoK:

Quote

"I am ... I was ... God. The one you call the Almighty, the creator of mankind." The figure closed his eyes. "And now I am dead. Odium has killed me. I am sorry."

I feel like there is another reference at some point - a Fused bragging about working with Odium to kill him - but I can't find it right now.

Notably, Raboniel claims to not know how Honor was killed in RoW 76:

Quote

"Do you know," the Fused finally asked, "how Honor was killed?"

"I ... am not certain I accept that he was."

"Oh, he was. At least the being you call the Almighty - the being who controlled the Shard of power that was Honor - is dead. Long dead. Do you know how?"

"Neither do I," Raboniel said. "But I wonder."

To be fair, this could just be Raboniel baiting Navani and trying to keep her interested in pursuing anti-Light.

31 minutes ago, apepi said:

I think Honor broke a deal, which caused him to become weak opening a hole into his...soul?

I've been coming around to this idea for a while now too. Part of me wonders if he and Odium had some sort of non-interference pact about the conflict on Roshar that Honor violated. It might explain why the Stormfather seems so reluctant to intervene at times. See, for example, RoW 107:

Quote

We need to give them more time, Dalinar said.

We cannot, the Stormfather said. Respect his frailty, and don't force me on this, Dalinar! You could break things you do not understand, the consequences of which would be catastrophic.

 

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1 minute ago, mdross81 said:

I mean, there's Tanavast himself in WoK:

I feel like there is another reference at some point - a Fused bragging about working with Odium to kill him - but I can't find it right now.

Notably, Raboniel claims to not know how Honor was killed in RoW 76:

To be fair, this could just be Raboniel baiting Navani and trying to keep her interested in pursuing anti-Light.

I've been coming around to this idea for a while now too. Part of me wonders if he and Odium had some sort of non-interference pact about the conflict on Roshar that Honor violated. It might explain why the Stormfather seems so reluctant to intervene at times. See, for example, RoW 107:

 

I think Honor/Odium/Cultivation has a deal to not go onto other worlds(which is why Odium can't leave, and why spren can't leave the system), and maybe Honor broke it and it killed him. Something like that.

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Honor was most definitely splintered. Odium even says as much to Dalinar in their conversation in Oathbringer when he mentions that he's going to have to do a more thorough job of splintering Honor's remnants before he can finally leave the system.

There's a very long but relevant WoB here where Brandon was asked about the battle between Honor and Odium. We know that Odium getting stuck on Braize was part of Honor's plan but Odium was still able to attack Honor and the latter 'went out swinging' but Brandon wouldn't call it a deliberate sacrifice.

1 hour ago, apepi said:

I think Honor/Odium/Cultivation has a deal to not go onto other worlds(which is why Odium can't leave, and why spren can't leave the system),

Spren can't leave because they're Splinters which means they're bound to the system where they were created. This also applies to Cognitive Shadows (who are heavily Invested) with the Returned managing to be both at once since they're a kind of CS and their existence is sustained by the Divine Breath, which is a Splinter of Endowment. In all cases however, this is something that can be worked around if you know how. Vasher worldhops, meaning he already knows how to do what the Heralds and Kelsier would so love to learn.

Meanwhile we know that Odium getting stuck was intended by Tanavast, but even if he wasn't directly bound in some way he's still de-facto bound by all the Investiture he's used to create the Unmade, the Fused and raysium. He'd want to reclaim all that power before leaving (otherwise he's handicapping himself in fights with other Shards) and the process of reclaiming it has been described as 'difficult'

Edited by Weltall
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2 hours ago, Andy92 said:

At the end of TWoK in the last vision to Dalinar. It’s when he realizes the visions are recordings and not actual live events. It’s actually the last line of the book before the epilogue. 

This depends on how much you trust the accuracy of the visions being from Honor himself, but that’s the in-world reasoning. 

 

2 hours ago, mdross81 said:

I mean, there's Tanavast himself in WoK:

I feel like there is another reference at some point - a Fused bragging about working with Odium to kill him - but I can't find it right now.

Notably, Raboniel claims to not know how Honor was killed in RoW 76:

To be fair, this could just be Raboniel baiting Navani and trying to keep her interested in pursuing anti-Light.

I've been coming around to this idea for a while now too. Part of me wonders if he and Odium had some sort of non-interference pact about the conflict on Roshar that Honor violated. It might explain why the Stormfather seems so reluctant to intervene at times. See, for example, RoW 107:

 

Just to make an admittedly fine distinction, killing Tanavast and Splintering Honor are separate acts. Plus, "Odium has killed me" may not be literal, or may be a guess by the shadow of Honor in the vision.

I think Honor's latter madness will have been to do with conflicting Oaths, and his ultimate solution to do with the binding of Ba-Ado-Mishram and a significant portion of Odium's Investiture ending up in Roshar itself. Perhaps by interfering with an Unmade, he broke a pact like that, but also bound Odium to the system in another way.

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  • 2 months later...
On 4/28/2021 at 4:20 PM, ElMonoEstupendo said:

The trouble is, Odium was bound in Braize at the time.

Pretty sure there’s a WoB that being bound on Braize (to a Shard, at least) is the same as being bound on Roshar or Ashyn. Odium was bound to the system, but bound to Braize is a mistaken idea we’ve had. His Fused were bound to Braize, but he himself was free to affect Roshar, just limited by Honor’s remnant and by Cultivation.

Edit: here it is:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/445/#e14144
 

Quote

ZuperzubS

Hi Brandon, just to double check my understanding of things, Odium is still mostly bound on Braize right? Just that he can influence things on Roshar because of proximity?

Brandon Sanderson

I treat Braize, Ashyn, and Roshar as if they were almost one entity for a lot of Identity/Connection related issues. It's more than proximity, though proximity leads to it. We on Earth, I feel, would consider the moon and even Mars to be "ours" so to speak, part of our family of planets. Odium's binding, and that of the heralds/fused encompasses Roshar and Ashyn. There are some subtle distinctions, but for the most part, being bound on Braize is the same as being bound on Roshar.

 

 

Edited by Jondesu
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On 4/28/2021 at 1:20 PM, ElMonoEstupendo said:

Does anyone know of any canon source that says it was actually Odium that did it? Because I can't find one.

When Dalinar ascends in Oathbringer, Odium himself says: "We killed you!" Almost certainly in reference to Honor, given the context. Not airtight I guess, but pretty close.

On 4/28/2021 at 2:03 PM, apepi said:

I think Honor broke a deal, which caused him to become weak opening a hole into his...soul?

I don't buy this, simply because breaking oaths or pacts goes against Honor's intent. Besides, if he had broken a deal, it is likely Odium would be completely free from whatever bound him to the Rosharan system. 

I find it more likely that the terms of Odium's imprisonment included a clause that made Honor vulnerable to Odium in some way, perhaps unbeknownst to Honor himself.

My question is when Odium says "We killed you!" Who besides himself is the "we" referring to?

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39 minutes ago, Zanarkand said:

My question is when Odium says "We killed you!" Who besides himself is the "we" referring to?

I'd say that Harmony's letter has answered that: Mercy

Honor is a more complex concept than Ruin or Preservation, so it has no direct oposite, but in a certain sense Mercy comes close.

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33 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I'd say that Harmony's letter has answered that: Mercy

Honor is a more complex concept than Ruin or Preservation, so it has no direct oposite, but in a certain sense Mercy comes close.

Possible but highly unlikely in my opinion. Brandon only very recently decided to canonize the shard Mercy. If it played such an important part in the history of the SA I think we would have had hints long before RoW.

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6 minutes ago, Zanarkand said:

Possible but highly unlikely in my opinion. Brandon only very recently decided to canonize the shard Mercy. If it played such an important part in the history of the SA I think we would have had hints long before RoW.

Well, Brandon only recently decided who Thaidakar is, but still that Thaidakar existed was clear from the very beginning. Is it important to the history, which Shard aided Odium? Not a lot. Will it matter? Quite possibly so.

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On 4/28/2021 at 1:20 PM, ElMonoEstupendo said:

First, a note: I'm pretty sure Honor died in a protracted manner shortly after the Recreance.

Honor definitely died before the Recreance 

the entire reason the Recreance happened has because the Radiants found out that they were actually the invaders and the Singers are the rightful owners of Roshar, and that Surgebinding had destroyed Ashyn

every generation of Radiants before them also went through this realization, but the previous ones had Honor to help them through it and accept that truth.

So Honor must’ve been dead by that point in order for the Recreance to have occurred at all.

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9 minutes ago, Danex said:

every generation of Radiants before them also went through this realization, but the previous ones had Honor to help them through it and accept that truth.

You're misremembering the context; per Oathbringer Honor was still alive at the time but he was dying and wasn't in a position mentally where he could help the Radiants of that era deal with the revelation. The WoB that states that Honor's death was a protracted event even says that yes, the vision of the Recreance was created from Tanavast's memories, meaning he had to have been alive to see it. So does this one that's even older.

Edited by Weltall
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12 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Majestic plural

I'm definitely leaning this way too.

6 minutes ago, Danex said:

Honor definitely died before the Recreance 

the entire reason the Recreance happened has because the Radiants found out that they were actually the invaders and the Singers are the rightful owners of Roshar, and that Surgebinding had destroyed Ashyn

every generation of Radiants before them also went through this realization, but the previous ones had Honor to help them through it and accept that truth.

So Honor must’ve been dead by that point in order for the Recreance to have occurred at all.

Honor was unstable but still alive at the time of the Recreance. He had to be alive in order to create the vision of the Recreance to show to potential bondsmiths. Instead of reassuring the Radiants of their righteousness he ranted that they would destroy the world, thus adding to the tensions instead of diffusing them.

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2 minutes ago, Weltall said:

You're misremembering the context; per Oathbringer Honor was still alive at the time but he was dying and wasn't in a position mentally where he could help the Radiants of that era deal with the revelation. The WoB that states that Honor's death was a protracted event even says that yes, the vision of the Recreance was created from Tanavast's memories, meaning he had to have been alive to see it. So does this one that's even older.

Beat me to it, lol.

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On 4/28/2021 at 3:20 PM, ElMonoEstupendo said:

Does anyone know of any canon source that says it was actually Odium that did it? Because I can't find one.

Stormfather says Odium killed the Almighty:

Quote

“I am the one left behind,” the voice said. It wasn’t exactly as he’d heard it in the visions; this voice had a depth to it. A density. “I am the sliver of Him that remains. I saw His corpse, saw Him die when Odium murdered Him. And I . . . I fled. To continue as I always have. The piece of God left in this world, the winds that men must feel.”

a couple times, actually:

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GO, BONDSMITH, the Stormfather said. LEAD YOUR DYING PEOPLE TO FAILURE. ODIUM DESTROYED THE ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. YOU ARE NOTHING TO HIM.

as does Tanavast himself:

Quote

“I am … I was … God. The one you call the Almighty, the creator of mankind.” The figure closed his eyes. “And now I am dead. Odium has killed me. I am sorry.”

and of course, Rayse does take credit for it:

Quote

“You have been placed in a difficult position, my son,” Odium said. “You are the first to bond the Stormfather in his current state. Did you know that? You are deeply connected to the remnants of a god.”

“Whom you killed.”

“Yes. I’ll kill the other one too, eventually. She’s hidden herself somewhere, and I’m too … shackled.”

I suppose technically this doesn't rule out the idea he killed Tanavast and someone else Splintered the power, but I'd find that surprising, cuz idk who else would do that (were Culti to do it, Odium would wreck her when she overextended herself, and I'm not sure why she would anyway, and I really don't see another Shard coming into the system to Splinter a Shard whose Vessel is already killed and then leave).

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