Kelsier's religion

[+Oltux72]

We know that Kelsier is the subject of religious veneration, outright among the Survivorists and to limited extent among the Pathists.

But what are his own convictions? I think we can safely assume that the events after his death have shattered any traces of belief in the Lord Ruler as a deity..But is there a replacement? Is he a highly unusual Survivorist? Or is he the last and only believer in Preservation? Were his promises to Leras profane or religious?
In fact does Kelsier see a difference there? Is Survivorism his honest attempt to fulfill the promise he gave Leras? Did he get involved in its development after appearing to Spook?

[Weltall]

Serious answer: Brandon has implied that Kelsier had a direct hand in how the Church of the Survivor took shape based on things he learned from Sazed. Also, that he has an overinflated opinion of himself, but we knew that. xD Given his own experiences I suspect he doesn't see any of the Shards as gods, at least in the sense of entities worthy of worship. I think he's genuinely trying to keep his promise to Leras but I don't think he sees it as a religious duty per se.

Non-serious answer: Kelsier is the Cosmere's one and only practitioner of the Church of the Fist, whose sole tenant is 'Thou shalt punch gods in the face'.

Edited April 10, 2021 by Weltall

[AquaRegia]

My feeling (not an expert) is that Kelsier is completely disinterested - and perhaps even psychologically incapable - of worshiping another being as a god.  He saw how The Lord Ruler used religious belief to control people's behavior, and decided to make use of it for his own "better" reasons... but he's not religious in any normal sense of the word.  He was bored and annoyed by Sazed's persistent attempts to find a religion for him to follow.  He's Ascended himself, so he's not impressed by Shard-level power.  He's met Leras and Ati personally and immediately sees them for what they are - flawed people with stupid amounts of power, unworthy of worship.  He certainly is neither a Survivorist nor a Pathian; I don't think he's capable of religious belief.

He does want to do good, but not from any religious motivation.  Trying to classify his promise as either "profane or religious" seems awfully black and white to me.  He saw Leras as an ally, a crew member, not a deity.  Can't he just promise to do his best as part of his own personal ethics?  I do think it makes sense that his interest in shaping Survivorism could stem in part from his desire to be a force for good in the Cosmere... but it's his own personal view of what "good" means, not anyone else's.

[Kingsdaughter613]

9 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

We know that Kelsier is the subject of religious veneration, outright among the Survivorists and to limited extent among the Pathists.

But what are his own convictions? I think we can safely assume that the events after his death have shattered any traces of belief in the Lord Ruler as a deity..But is there a replacement? Is he a highly unusual Survivorist? Or is he the last and only believer in Preservation? Were his promises to Leras profane or religious?
In fact does Kelsier see a difference there? Is Survivorism his honest attempt to fulfill the promise he gave Leras? Did he get involved in its development after appearing to Spook?

Kelsier shaped the initial form of Survivorism utilizing Sazed’s teachings. Specifically, he knew the death of a spiritual leader would both inspire his followers AND lead to that leader’s deification.

It is unlikely that Kelsier has anything to do with the modern form of Survivorism. Their rigidity and hierarchical structure would be highly unappealing to him. That said, he’s probably using them in some way.

Kelsier is likely far more heavily involved with the Hunters considering this: “Now they hunt answers to what happened to us, and secrets to making it never happen again.” THIS is literally what Kelsier tells Spook at the end of SH: “Ignorance almost lost us everything. I’m not going to let that happen again.” The Hunters are the ones directly shaped by Kelsier’s philosophies and actions.

Kelsier respected Leras and there was a certain recognition of him as a divinity. However, the respect was mostly more personal, rather than religious. It was a personal devotion, which is the kind a psychopath is capable of. And it can be quite intense for him, more so even than for a neurotypical person.

So Kell is likely trying to follow Leras’ directive in his own way. I suspect he’s doing this by trying not to get too directly involved with Survivorism or the South and focusing his energy on... other matters, shall we say?

[Aspiring Writer]

5 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

t is unlikely that Kelsier has anything to do with the modern form of Survivorism. Their rigidity and hierarchical structure would be highly unappealing to him. That said, he’s probably using them in some way.

I don't know, this wob says otherwise

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

3 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

I don't know, this wob says otherwise

 

That only describes how Kelsier views himself which follows what he set up prior to his death. There is no indication that he is directly involved with their current theology which runs counter to his personal beliefs and preferences.

Note that members of Kelsier’s own crew don’t have to listen to him and have a master/apprentice type hierarchy, with all members having considerable autonomy. The Southerners, whose culture he was more deeply involved in, note that he liked to test them and push them. To the point that telling them NOT to do something was tantamount to telling them to do it. (Which was the point where I became certain of the Sovereign’s identity.) The Fallen, whose culture he directly shaped, are a very strict meritocracy. Indications are that the Malwish follow a similar strict meritocratic structure.

The Church’s theology does not follow Kelsier’s practices, making it very unlikely that he’s directly involved in that aspect at this time. He is almost certainly USING it, however.

[Honorless]

Survivorism was probably his way of continuing to fill the religious gap in the new society, as he was planning in the Final Empire, along with a way to mold the future generation and give himself a bit of a power base.

As for his personal beliefs, I don't think he has any. He aligns with being agnostic in his belief about the possibility of the existence of (a) higher powers(s) and an afterlife during the Final Empire. Meeting Leras, he wasn't exactly feeling very charitable towards the entity and had no desire to venerate him. Or any other god, for that matter. How he sees faith is quite apparent in his plan, I think. He sees it as a social structure, that's it. As for gods, they are just powerful entities to him. Even understanding Preservation, he only felt empathy, as well as a "okay, so can I use this to my advantage?" His life was a hard one, where he had plenty of cause to hate the very idea of a god. God either existed and let all this happen, or god is personally responsible for all this and needs a shanking (though I don't think he really thought of the Lord Ruler as a god in any way), or there is no god. His death gave him perspective on the gods/Shards. He even became a god for a limited amount of time. I definitely think he's an atheist by now.

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

Survivorism was probably his way of continuing to fill the religious gap in the new society, as he was planning in the Final Empire, along with a way to mold the future generation and give himself a bit of a power base.

As for his personal beliefs, I don't think he has any. He aligns with being agnostic in his belief about the possibility of the existence of (a) higher powers(s) and an afterlife during the Final Empire. Meeting Leras, he wasn't exactly feeling very charitable towards the entity and had no desire to venerate him. Or any other god, for that matter. How he sees faith is quite apparent in his plan, I think. He sees it as a social structure, that's it. As for gods, they are just powerful entities to him. Even understanding Preservation, he only felt empathy, as well as a "okay, so can I use this to my advantage?" His life was a hard one, where he had plenty of cause to hate the very idea of a god. God either existed and let all this happen, or god is personally responsible for all this and needs a shanking (though I don't think he really thought of the Lord Ruler as a god in any way), or there is no god. His death gave him perspective on the gods/Shards. He even became a god for a limited amount of time. I definitely think he's an atheist by now.

Kelsier has indicated a desire to believe there is something Beyond, though it’s pretty clear he doesn’t really believe it. I’d say he’s agnostic because he wants to be able to imagine the people he loves are still around in some manner.

Kelsier believes in people, not divinities. He believes in Marsh, Sazed and Leras as people, not gods. Psychopaths tend to be very loyal, so that’s a pretty big deal.

Kelsier’s personal beliefs are that people should be autonomous. You see it in the way he tends to run his crews and how his crew is allowed to defy him. They can walk away any time. He likes debate. He doesn’t do oversight. He gave up his rule once he saved the South and hasn’t openly claimed dominion in the North. He consistently challenged the South, pushing them to grow and explore.

Manipulating people to do what Kelsier wants does not count as violating their autonomy, btw. Everyone manipulates everyone else; he’s just better at it.

[Honorless]

12 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Kelsier has indicated a desire to believe there is something Beyond, though it’s pretty clear he doesn’t really believe it. I’d say he’s agnostic because he wants to be able to imagine the people he loves are still around in some manner.

Kelsier believes in people, not divinities. He believes in Marsh, Sazed and Leras as people, not gods. Psychopaths tend to be very loyal, so that’s a pretty big deal.

Kelsier’s personal beliefs are that people should be autonomous. You see it in the way he tends to run his crews and how his crew is allowed to defy him. They can walk away any time. He likes debate. He doesn’t do oversight. He gave up his rule once he saved the South and hasn’t openly claimed dominion in the North. He consistently challenged the South, pushing them to grow and explore.

Manipulating people to do what Kelsier wants does not count as violating their autonomy, btw. Everyone manipulates everyone else; he’s just better at it.

Wanting to believe is a separate thing, imo. I want to believe there's an afterlife too. Too many people die young and/or have messed up lives for me to like that part of the "death is the great equalizer" idea. Do I actually believe in an afterlife? Honestly, I really can't. We're self-sustaining patterns. When the pattern is lost, we are lost. The flame doesn't really go anywhere when it goes out. Yada-yada.

Agreed on the rest of it.

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Wanting to believe is a separate thing, imo. I want to believe there's an afterlife too. Too many people die young and/or have messed up lives for me to like that part of the "death is the great equalizer" idea. Do I actually believe in an afterlife? Honestly, I really can't. We're self-sustaining patterns. When the pattern is lost, we are lost. The flame doesn't really go anywhere when it goes out. Yada-yada.

Agreed on the rest of it.

Kelsier is very good at not thinking too much about things he doesn’t want to think of. I don’t know that he’d be comfortable admitting the people he loves are truly gone (from his perspective, anyway). Although patterns DO stick around a long time in the Cosmere...

Edited April 11, 2021 by Kingsdaughter613

[Aspiring Writer]

10 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

That only describes how Kelsier views himself which follows what he set up prior to his death. There is no indication that he is directly involved with their current theology which runs counter to his personal beliefs and preferences.

Note that members of Kelsier’s own crew don’t have to listen to him and have a master/apprentice type hierarchy, with all members having considerable autonomy. The Southerners, whose culture he was more deeply involved in, note that he liked to test them and push them. To the point that telling them NOT to do something was tantamount to telling them to do it. (Which was the point where I became certain of the Sovereign’s identity.) The Fallen, whose culture he directly shaped, are a very strict meritocracy. Indications are that the Malwish follow a similar strict meritocratic structure.

The Church’s theology does not follow Kelsier’s practices, making it very unlikely that he’s directly involved in that aspect at this time. He is almost certainly USING it, however.

Sorry, wrong WoB.  https://wob.coppermind.net/events/3-firefight-chicago-signing/#e22

[Kingsdaughter613]

21 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Sorry, wrong WoB.  https://wob.coppermind.net/events/3-firefight-chicago-signing/#e22

Which, again, refers to what he did before his death, not after. Kelsier’s working concept, which he got from Saze, was that a holy leader dying would inspire his followers. He then used the mythical concept of that leader resurrecting and returning to guide his followers by having OreSeur pretend to be him.

There is no indication of further direct involvement with Survivorism on Kelsier’s part. By the time HoA ended, Survivorism had already established a doctrine which has, by and large, persisted. The church was already beginning to form into its current shape before Kelsier was in any position to influence it, and there is nothing to indicate he ever directly did again.

[Aspiring Writer]

1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Which, again, refers to what he did before his death, not after. Kelsier’s working concept, which he got from Saze, was that a holy leader dying would inspire his followers. He then used the mythical concept of that leader resurrecting and returning to guide his followers by having OreSeur pretend to be him.

There is no indication of further direct involvement with Survivorism on Kelsier’s part. By the time HoA ended, Survivorism had already established a doctrine which has, by and large, persisted. The church was already beginning to form into its current shape before Kelsier was in any position to influence it, and there is nothing to indicate he ever directly did again.

No, he didn't shape the church of the survivor before his death, this could only happen after. He wanted them to rebel, he couldn't have controlled how the religion shaped until after his death.

[Kingsdaughter613]

Just now, Aspiring Writer said:

No, he didn't shape the church of the survivor before his death, this could only happen after. He wanted them to rebel, he couldn't have controlled how the religion shaped until after his death.

He could, because he was basing his actions on religions like Christianity. He couldn’t shape the ultimate form of the church, but he did shape DOCTRINE. And that doctrine is what makes Survivorism feel like Christianity, due to our associations with the death and resurrection doctrine.

Structurally, Vorinism has many similarities with classical Christianity. This is almost inevitable for a hierarchical religious structure (unless you go full Greek-paganism). But Vorinism’s doctrine is so different that it isn’t immediately obvious. Similarly, Pathians have a structure similar to classical Judaism, especially if you’re familiar with ‘shtieblach’. But the doctrine is very different so you have to really know that culture to notice.

In contrast, Survivorism has a doctrine that feels Christian even BEFORE the Church became what it is. And THAT is what Kelsier directly shaped. He made his religion like Christianity by shaping its base doctrine. And that’s what we recognize.

There is, however, no indication that he shaped the structures that formed around that doctrine. In contrast, there is considerable circumstantial evidence, based on cultures/organizations we know he has shaped, that Kelsier was not directly involved in the creation of the modern form of his church.

He was also on the other side of the planet at the time, so there’s that too.

[BreezeCauthon]

I wouldn't say that Survivorism has a particularly Christian doctrine, though the death/resurrection parallels are certainly there. Even in that case, however, the similarity doesn't extend beyond the actual existence of a putative death/resurrection... the doctrines are actually quite different.

[Kingsdaughter613]

49 minutes ago, BreezeCauthon said:

I wouldn't say that Survivorism has a particularly Christian doctrine, though the death/resurrection parallels are certainly there. Even in that case, however, the similarity doesn't extend beyond the actual existence of a putative death/resurrection... the doctrines are actually quite different.

It’s more that we associate those beliefs with Christianity, so any religion that has them will feel Christian-esque to us. There’s just enough similarities - Kelsier dying on a spear for the people, his ‘resurrection’, the whole hope for humankind thing, etc. that gives an overall feel that is reminiscent of Christian doctrine.

Kind of like how any religion that involves someone finding enlightenment on a mountain top and coming down with a religion will feel Jewish/Islamic (depending on your culture and how hierarchical the resulting religion is) to us, even if that’s the only similarity.

[BreezeCauthon]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

It’s more that we associate those beliefs with Christianity, so any religion that has them will feel Christian-esque to us. There’s just enough similarities - Kelsier dying on a spear for the people, his ‘resurrection’, the whole hope for humankind thing, etc. that gives an overall feel that is reminiscent of Christian doctrine.

Kind of like how any religion that involves someone finding enlightenment on a mountain top and coming down with a religion will feel Jewish/Islamic (depending on your culture and how hierarchical the resulting religion is) to us, even if that’s the only similarity.

Yeah, fair enough.

[+Oltux72]

11 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

There is no indication of further direct involvement with Survivorism on Kelsier’s part. By the time HoA ended, Survivorism had already established a doctrine which has, by and large, persisted. The church was already beginning to form into its current shape before Kelsier was in any position to influence it, and there is nothing to indicate he ever directly did again.

What about the Words of the Founding? If Kelsier had written anything I am quite sure Sazed would have transmitted it. Maybe he would have written a comment, but he wouldn't outright surpress an eyewitness's accout. In fact, how else do the Scadrians know the story about Kelsier's and Vin's ascensions? Is there a Kelsieriad?

10 hours ago, BreezeCauthon said:

I wouldn't say that Survivorism has a particularly Christian doctrine, though the death/resurrection parallels are certainly there. Even in that case, however, the similarity doesn't extend beyond the actual existence of a putative death/resurrection... the doctrines are actually quite different.

What doctrines does it have? Apart from the Survivor's Mandate, what do we know? Well, I guess if you turn the other cheek to Kelsier you'll get a dagger into your guts, but other than that? I guess survival is a rather complex topic. How literally do you take it? Are there Survivorists who think that creating archives or museums is a religious duty? I guess Survivorism and pacifism are incompatible, but still, do Survivorist temples run classes on unarmed and armed combat?
What is their stance on community versus individual? Kelsier died for his people. Does the need of the many take precedence?

[Kingsdaughter613]

34 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

What about the Words of the Founding? If Kelsier had written anything I am quite sure Sazed would have transmitted it. Maybe he would have written a comment, but he wouldn't outright surpress an eyewitness's accout. In fact, how else do the Scadrians know the story about Kelsier's and Vin's ascensions? Is there a Kelsieriad?

What doctrines does it have? Apart from the Survivor's Mandate, what do we know? Well, I guess if you turn the other cheek to Kelsier you'll get a dagger into your guts, but other than that? I guess survival is a rather complex topic. How literally do you take it? Are there Survivorists who think that creating archives or museums is a religious duty? I guess Survivorism and pacifism are incompatible, but still, do Survivorist temples run classes on unarmed and armed combat?
What is their stance on community versus individual? Kelsier died for his people. Does the need of the many take precedence?

Kelsier would have cared more about how his actions were recorded than informing Church structure. His influence on their beliefs appears limited to his initial death/resurrection con and - possibly - on the underlying belief that one should struggle to survive. It’s one of the few elements of Survivorism that feels like Kell.

[cometaryorbit]

I wouldn't call Kelsier atheist in the usual RL sense, but non-religious. When he sees the Spiritual Realm in Secret History, I read that as a realization that there is something  "transcendent"  about the Shards. But he certainly doesn't worship any of them.

He may have heard of the idea of the God Beyond by now, but I doubt he'd take it very seriously.

(BTW, I find it rather ironic that Kelsier set up a fake resurrection to be viewed as a god, and then did briefly Ascend and later return to physical life...)

[legolasgalactica]

Would people worshipping Kelsier add to his power as a cognitive shadow? Like the more people perceive an object as a particular thing, the stronger it's soul/spren are in the cognitive realm?

[AquaRegia]

@legolasgalactica that's an interesting question, and its ramifications frighten me a little.

We've certainly seen evidence that spren sort of work this way, and Syl and others explicitly agree - the more people view a cognitive entity a certain way, the more they BECOME that way.  We may see the same with the Heralds: Nale, Taln, and Ishar have almost become caricatures rather than people - the weight of centuries of worship as ideals?  Ash seems to be waging a war against people's perceptions of her.  So there is some sense of perception affecting them, but I'm not sure about adding to their power.

Vasher, as Zahel, may have the best insight into how Cognitive Shadows are affected by perception over time.  I recall he describes how the Intent of the Investiture slowly takes over... does he say anything about the perceptions of people having an effect?

[cometaryorbit]

I don't think it gives him more power, except maybe indirectly through Connections (like being able to speak to Spook when near death).

It might shape who he is. But probably not so dramatically (Stormlight)

Spoiler

The Stormfather says that the Fused are affected by repeated death/rebirth ("each rebirth further injures their minds") and the Heralds' souls are "worn thin" from centuries of torture. The Heralds also have had many rebirths, and abandoned the Oathpact which might play a role.

None of those things have happened to Kelsier. He's also fairly young by cosmere immortal standards (380-something as of BOM). I think he's still basically himself.

Also, self-perception is probably important.

I wonder if being imbued with Preservation's Investiture by the Well + being a Sliver of Preservation makes Kelsier less vulnerable to change over time?