Navani Foreshadowing

[+mdross81]

Some of these responses from the anti-Navani contingent are just getting ridiculous:

Oh, sure, just go get a larkin.

Hide your journal in furniture

Kaladin was a one-man stop to the invasion (please, it required Dabbid, Rlain, Venli, Lift, the Sibling, Wit, that random ardent, and ... yes ... Navani supporting him for Kaladin to do what he did)

I mean, we're clearly not getting anywhere. I've tried to understand the reasons underlying the hardcore commitment some of you have to the idea that Navani is unworthy, and I just don't. I'm guessing you also don't get my view that she is worthy. So let's leave it there. Agree to disagree.

[Infinity Sliver]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

There is a larkin in Theylanah.

 But, he did. He fought Lezian, made him retreat, killed him and intimidated the entire regal force into not attacking him.

 

You're right,there is a larkin,in Theylanah. Where she cant go because SHE'S CAPTIVE WITH AN INVASION FORCE KEEPING HER CAPTIVE!!!

Yea,Kaladin fought Lezian,made him retreat,but it wasnt easy. Kaladin beat Leshwi before,but it wasnt easy. Now imagine having to fight both,with Raboniel and other Fused waiting a go. How are we just somehow forgetting these important details???

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

Some of these responses from the anti-Navani contingent are just getting ridiculous:

Oh, sure, just go get a larkin.

Hide your journal in furniture

Kaladin was a one-man stop to the invasion (please, it required Dabbid, Rlain, Venli, Lift, the Sibling, Wit, that random ardent, and ... yes ... Navani supporting him for Kaladin to do what he did)

I mean, we're clearly not getting anywhere. I've tried to understand the reasons underlying the hardcore commitment some of you have to the idea that Navani is unworthy, and I just don't. I'm guessing you also don't get my view that she is worthy. So let's leave it there. Agree to disagree.

You aren't understanding the reason because the conversation keeps getting dragged in random directions.

She hasn't proven she can handel the power and so she is unworthy, there you go.

3 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

You're right,there is a larkin,in Theylanah. Where she cant go because SHE'S CAPTIVE WITH AN INVASION FORCE KEEPING HER CAPTIVE!!!

Yea,Kaladin fought Lezian,made him retreat,but it wasnt easy. Kaladin beat Leshwi before,but it wasnt easy. Now imagine having to fight both,with Raboniel and other Fused waiting a go. How are we just somehow forgetting these important details???

 

1 minute ago, Infinitysliver said:

Honestly,they keep forgetting this isnt a perfect scenario where you have access to Oathgates,your radiant team isnt team coma,youre about to witness the birth of a new Unmade that will decimate team coma ,your normal army is nowhere near you with no way to reach them...the important things

You seem to think that restoring the Sibling had to be done before the Fused could be killed.

Leshwi fights 1 v 1, so would not team up, Lezian demands redemtion and so must fight Kaladin 1 v 1, a team up is far from likely

[Bejarden]

11 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

Again,the question wasnt her worthiness,it was what would you have done to save the tower? This is before she become a Bondsmith so you cant use that. And making a mistake somehow disqualifies you from been worthy??? What?

What do I have to do with this

the things you do before you become Bondsmith have to do in the decision of if you should be one.

 

12 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

But she didnt have a ton,she had a few spheres worth!

That’s why it’s called ramifications in that it could happen because of what happened here.

 

13 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

OMG! If you cant handle stress you cant be a Bondsmith? She made due with the very limited resources she had. Literally anyone else on Roshar would have failed if they were put in that exact spot,maybe except Dalinar.

So you think it’s a coincidence that nobody but the Bondsmith would be able to deal with it.

 

14 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

Honestly,i dont even remember too much from the book but I kinda remember that the anti tone wasnt enough? Else Raboniel would have just used anti tone to kill her daughter instead of anti VoidLight?

It was enough for the Sibling who was the only reason to have it at all.

[+mdross81]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You aren't understanding the reason because the conversation keeps getting dragged in random directions.

She hasn't proven she can handel the power and so she is unworthy, there you go.

I keep wanting to let it go, but this doesn't hold up either. How can she prove she can handle the power before she even has the power?

Did Dalinar prove that he could handle the power before being chosen? I mean it was a near miss on Dalinar giving in to Odium's attempt to make him his champion. And several times he's pushed on his bond with the Stormfather in ways that the Stormfather has hinted could have drastic consequences. I don't know that he's shown he can handle the power either.

It's like Tien said to Kal in the vision before he swore the fourth ideal - you're good enough for me. I think that, in-world, the Stormfather and the Sibling have decided that Dalinar and Navani respectively are worthy enough for them. It's fine to dislike that. But I think it works with the theme of how holding to an overly rigid concept of Honor can be problematic. The characters are all learning to adapt to new realities.

[Bejarden]

58 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

I keep wanting to let it go, but this doesn't hold up either. How can she prove she can handle the power before she even has the power?

She proved she can’t, that’s the problem. She was given the opportunity to be a scientist and have no responsibility or be a leader who doesn’t give an inch. She chose the first one and the ramifications will be massive.

[Aspiring Writer]

4 hours ago, Isilel said:

And the Stormfather wasn't just obeying Honor out of respect/affection, he didn't have any choice:

He didn't, but he said that he would've done it out of respect for Tanavast regardless.

[+mdross81]

11 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

She proved she can’t, that’s the problem. She was given the opportunity to be a scientist and have no responsibility or be a leader who doesn’t give an inch. She chose the first one and the ramifications will be massive.

That's a false dichotomy. She both led and pursued scientific research. And I don't think it was remotely possible for her to know the full extent of what anti-Light might lead to. She wasn't just tinkering for the sake of it, but trying to stall for time and find a way to help the Sibling. She took the chance that was available to her by working with Raboniel, and still tried to fight back in what small ways she could under the circumstances. And the progress she made on the research is what led Raboniel to slow-roll the efforts to find the nodes and complete the corruption of the Sibling.

Play out what would have happened if Navani "didn't give an inch." The Fused, with the Radiant-suppression remaining in full effect, would have been able to hang onto Urithiru indefinitely. They eventually would have found the nodes and Kaladin, completed the corruption of the Sibling, and killed the captive Radiants.

I don't see how her actions prove that she can't be trusted with the powers of a Bondsmith. In fact, one could argue that her firsthand experience of the unintended consequences of experimenting with powers not fully understood will make her all the more likely to be cautious going forward.

[Bejarden]

5 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

Play out what would have happened if Navani "didn't give an inch." The Fused, with the Radiant-suppression remaining in full effect, would have been able to hang onto Urithiru indefinitely. They eventually would have found the nodes and Kaladin, completed the corruption of the Sibling, and killed the captive Radiants.

Or Kaladin and Navani could have escaped confident the Fused would never find the Nodes. Then they could bring back Dalinar and the coalition who could lay send a strike team of Shardbearers to remove the Oathgate spren. Then they could lay siege on Urithiru while having spies in there to stop them from finding the nodes. And lift could rejuvenate the Radiants

 

8 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

That's a false dichotomy. She both led and pursued scientific research. And I don't think it was remotely possible for her to know the full extent of what anti-Light might lead to.

She had already seen what a tiny amount can do when proded.

[+mdross81]

4 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Or Kaladin and Navani could have escaped confident the Fused would never find the Nodes. Then they could bring back Dalinar and the coalition who could lay send a strike team of Shardbearers to remove the Oathgate spren. Then they could lay siege on Urithiru while having spies in there to stop them from finding the nodes. And lift could rejuvenate the Radiants

This does not seem at all realistic.

How are Kal and Navani going to escape? What would give them the confidence that the Fused wouldn't find the nodes?

How, exactly, are Shardbearers going to do anything to Oathgate spren? And why?

How is this siege going to work? Their powers will fail before they ever get close enough to be a threat, and the Fused can use their surges as needed to circumvent the siege.

Even if Lift were somehow able to awaken the Radiants they still wouldn't have access to their powers.

Look, I'm not going to argue that Navani didn't act somewhat recklessly, but I think it was an acceptable risk under dire circumstances and should not disqualify her from bonding the Sibling. I understand if you disagree.

[Bejarden]

16 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

How are Kal and Navani going to escape? What would give them the confidence that the Fused wouldn't find the nodes?

One of them can use a Fabrial to fly.

16 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

How is this siege going to work? Their powers will fail before they ever get close enough to be a threat, and the Fused can use their surges as needed to circumvent the siege.

The point of a siege is to cut off supplies and Windrunner can attack Heavenly ones outside the perimeter.

17 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

How, exactly, are Shardbearers going to do anything to Oathgate spren? And why?

We know they can be removed from OB when Odium wants to destroy the Oathgate but says to remove the gem first.

 

18 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

Even if Lift were somehow able to awaken the Radiants they still wouldn't have access to their powers.

But they would make good soldiers every 6 hours one or 2 of them

 

19 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

Look, I'm not going to argue that Navani didn't act somewhat recklessly, but I think it was an acceptable risk under dire circumstances and should not disqualify her from bonding the Sibling. I understand if you disagree.

Thank you for your understanding 

[Infinity Sliver]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

You seem to think that restoring the Sibling had to be done before the Fused could be killed.

Leshwi fights 1 v 1, so would not team up, Lezian demands redemtion and so must fight Kaladin 1 v 1, a team up is far from likely

Alright,I gots time now. So MAYBE Leshwi will fight kaladin one on one,then Lezian gets a turn,then MAYBE Kaladin wins,alright,there's stormforms and those sinking into stone Fused,like are we forgetting there's a literal army there that one man would have to fight? one man that cant fly,can only use one surge that he doesnt use often against a literal army? what??? Why are you all just forgetting that Kaladin's powers were basically cut in half,he's good but no way in hell is he that good.

 

4 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

What do I have to do with this

the things you do before you become Bondsmith have to do in the decision of if you should be one.

 

That’s why it’s called ramifications in that it could happen because of what happened here.

 

So you think it’s a coincidence that nobody but the Bondsmith would be able to deal with it.

 

It was enough for the Sibling who was the only reason to have it at all.

Your answers confuse me. The only reason a Bondsmith is the only one apart from Roshar that MIGHT have been able to save the Tower is literally because he has a god spren,can open perpendularities,etc,he could only work with non radiants because any radiants that come into urithiru is basically useless.

Wasnt the Sibling also purged off Voidlight and then required Towerlight to start to feel better? Who else could have done that? Who else knew the tunes? or whatever,im rusty on that part.

2 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

She proved she can’t, that’s the problem. She was given the opportunity to be a scientist and have no responsibility or be a leader who doesn’t give an inch. She chose the first one and the ramifications will be massive.

She was both!! she was literally walking among the scholars WHILE been captive WHILE been a scientist. She did lead,she made a mistake yes,but again,she did the absolute best and honestly,this option is better than having a dead Sibling who becomes an unmade and they no longer have a  homebase. Just think about that.

 

2 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Or Kaladin and Navani could have escaped confident the Fused would never find the Nodes. Then they could bring back Dalinar and the coalition who could lay send a strike team of Shardbearers to remove the Oathgate spren. Then they could lay siege on Urithiru while having spies in there to stop them from finding the nodes. And lift could rejuvenate the Radiants

 

She had already seen what a tiny amount can do when proded.

The Fused would have found the nodes! What? They could have literally just kept searching. There was no way that Navani and Kaladin could have escaped even with the flying fabrial and carrying someone.

A siege works when you have time on your hands. They didnt have time,that is literally why Navani had to resort to these methods. Do you guys just gloss over these important bits?

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

The point of a siege is to cut off supplies and Windrunner can attack Heavenly ones outside the perimeter.

We know they can be removed from OB when Odium wants to destroy the Oathgate but says to remove the gem first.

 

But they would make good soldiers every 6 hours one or 2 of them

 

Thank you for your understanding 

Why would the heavenly ones venture out then? It's a siege,they have control of the tower,they can just keep trying to corrupt the Sibling.

We've seen how foot soldiers fare against the Fused.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

25 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

Wasnt the Sibling also purged off Voidlight and then required Towerlight to start to feel better? Who else could have done that? Who else knew the tunes? or whatever,im rusty on that part.

Yep, it required Navani playing the anti-Voidlight tone through the tower's systems to uncorrupt the Sibling.

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, mdross81 said:

I keep wanting to let it go, but this doesn't hold up either. How can she prove she can handle the power before she even has the power?

She would have to display inhuman levels of restraint and self-control

33 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

Alright,I gots time now. So MAYBE Leshwi will fight kaladin one on one,then Lezian gets a turn,then MAYBE Kaladin wins,alright,there's stormforms and those sinking into stone Fused,like are we forgetting there's a literal army there that one man would have to fight? one man that cant fly,can only use one surge that he doesnt use often against a literal army? what??? Why are you all just forgetting that Kaladin's powers were basically cut in half,he's good but no way in hell is he that good.

There is litterally a scene where an entire regal army takes on look at him and decides to leave him alone.

[Infinity Sliver]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

There is litterally a scene where an entire regal army takes on look at him and decides to leave him alone.

You mean enraged Kaladin? How are you all still not getting that this is one man,before his fourth Ideal. Even an enraged Kaladin could not take on an army and fly off with Navani,which would have still been a horrible option because the Sibling turns into an Unmade.

I'm sure there was something else happening in that scene too,cant remember

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Infinitysliver said:

You mean enraged Kaladin? How are you all still not getting that this is one man,before his fourth Ideal. Even an enraged Kaladin could not take on an army and fly off with Navani,which would have still been a horrible option because the Sibling turns into an Unmade.

I'm sure there was something else happening in that scene too,cant remember

He ripped Lezians head off, with a reverse Lashing.

[Listener]

 

3 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

One of them can use a Fabrial to fly.

The point of a siege is to cut off supplies and Windrunner can attack Heavenly ones outside the perimeter.

What about the Oathgates? The entire reason Urithiru is so important is that it can easily move soldiers and supplies instantaneously over large distances. And they couldn't fly out since the scouts would spot them. And how are they supposed to cross half of Roshar on that fabrial when each weight only lasts a minute or so? That's also far too much strain on Kal's arm and their Stormlight wouldn't be limitless. The whole point of the enemy taking the tower was because it would be near impossible to lose. Even after Dalinar found out, all of them admitted that the chances of taking Urithiru back was very slim. The tower was only saved because Navani discovered Anit-Light, bonded the Sibling and reversed the suppressors by creating Towerlight while Kal defended the nodes. There was literally no way either of could have done better.

[Frustration]

13 minutes ago, Listener said:

 

What about the Oathgates? The entire reason Urithiru is so important is that it can easily move soldiers and supplies instantaneously over large distances. And they couldn't fly out since the scouts would spot them. And how are they supposed to cross half of Roshar on that fabrial when each weight only lasts a minute or so? That's also far too much strain on Kal's arm and their Stormlight wouldn't be limitless. The whole point of the enemy taking the tower was because it would be near impossible to lose. Even after Dalinar found out, all of them admitted that the chances of taking Urithiru back was very slim. The tower was only saved because Navani discovered Anit-Light, bonded the Sibling and reversed the suppressors by creating Towerlight while Kal defended the nodes. There was literally no way either of could have done better.

*coughs in fourth Ideal Kal could solo the entire occupying force*

[Infinity Sliver]

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

*coughs in fourth Ideal Kal could solo the entire occupying force*

The fourth Ideal that was the build up for the book,that,IF he had escaped,would never had happened in time for this miraculous save that you all keep proposing? Kaladin could prolly not solo the entire occupying force. He would still need reserves of Stormlight to fight,or are we forgetting where he gets his batteries? Isnt Jasnah also a 4th Ideal,she def could not solo an army no?

You guys are going to extraordinary lengths to try to make the impossible happen. 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

He ripped Lezians head off, with a reverse Lashing.

That was it. Anyway,Kaladin would have lost against the occupying force. Navani's actions were not the best,but they were not the best in a perfect scenario.

You all keep forgetting that she was held prisoner,the radiants were under some coma effect thing,Kaladin is one man who definitely cannot solo an entire army,she used what little resources she could to orchestrate the events that happened,literally anyone else in that scenario would have failed completely.

[Jaywalk]

6 hours ago, mdross81 said:

Some of these responses from the anti-Navani contingent are just getting ridiculous:

^My entire thinking reading through this thread

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Infinitysliver said:

The fourth Ideal that was the build up for the book,that,IF he had escaped,would never had happened in time for this miraculous save that you all keep proposing? Kaladin could prolly not solo the entire occupying force. He would still need reserves of Stormlight to fight,or are we forgetting where he gets his batteries? Isnt Jasnah also a 4th Ideal,she def could not solo an army no?

Jasnah can barely 1 v 1. And Kal did come back and single handedly turned the tide, and there is stormlight everywhere in Urithiru he got some from lamps during the occupation.

2 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

You guys are going to extraordinary lengths to try to make the impossible happen. 

4th oath is not a very big leap

3 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

That was it. Anyway,Kaladin would have lost against the occupying force. Navani's actions were not the best,but they were not the best in a perfect scenario.

No he really wouldn't have

3 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

You all keep forgetting that she was held prisoner,the radiants were under some coma effect thing,Kaladin is one man who definitely cannot solo an entire army,she used what little resources she could to orchestrate the events that happened,literally anyone else in that scenario would have failed completely.

Even held prisoner I would not help the people trying to conqure the world.

[Infinity Sliver]

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Jasnah can barely 1 v 1. And Kal did come back and single handedly turned the tide, and there is stormlight everywhere in Urithiru he got some from lamps during the occupation.

Jasnah can barely 1v1,the same Jasnah who destroyed in oathbringer? There is no way that Kaladin would have had enough to fight off an entire army. The man needs Dalinar for a perpendicularity when he was fighting in heartsone. You have to realize that all the gems wouldnt just be conviniently placed where Kaladin is gonna fight either.

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

4th oath is not a very big leap

Yes it is!!! That is literally what this book showed! For Kaladin the 4th oath was a massive step,thats why he failed to do it at the end of oathbringer even at the odds that he would fail Dalinar,thats why Dalinar had to interfere,Kaladin almost never even said it in ROW. Oh my lord

 

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Even held prisoner I would not help the people trying to conqure the world.

You know how,in movies you see people make some bad decisions and while youre on your couch,you say "I'd never do that"? Thats what this sounds like. You werent in that situation,she did the absolute best she could and honestly,if she hadnt

1. The Sibling would have been an Unmade

2. The Tower would have been lost,therefore there would be no home base for the Radiants,the coalition

3.Odium would have been in a wayyyy better spot for negotaiting

4..The morale for the entire team would have sunk

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Infinitysliver said:

Jasnah can barely 1v1,the same Jasnah who destroyed in oathbringer? There is no way that Kaladin would have had enough to fight off an entire army. The man needs Dalinar for a perpendicularity when he was fighting in heartsone. You have to realize that all the gems wouldnt just be conviniently placed where Kaladin is gonna fight either.

Using surges yes, but she can't fight, at least not well, that's what I thought you ment. The light is where the people can get to, which means it's convienient.

2 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

Yes it is!!! That is literally what this book showed! For Kaladin the 4th oath was a massive step,thats why he failed to do it at the end of oathbringer even at the odds that he would fail Dalinar,thats why Dalinar had to interfere,Kaladin almost never even said it in ROW. Oh my lord

So Navani get's to somehow know she will discover anti-Voidlight and use it to cure the Sibling but Kal doesn't get 4th? Really?

3 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

You know how,in movies you see people make some bad decisions and while youre on your couch,you say "I'd never do that"? Thats what this sounds like. You werent in that situation,she did the absolute best she could and honestly,if she hadnt

Her best is not worthy of being a bondsmith then. I don't care what pressure they are put under they cannot be allowed to crack, there is a reason I've said I wouldn't trust anyone with it, it's not supposed to be reasonable the standards must be unobtainably demanding, they have to be.

It wasn't even that hard of a choice it wasn't "work for me or die" it was "work for me and maybe you can outsmart me" that's not a hard choice.

4 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

1. The Sibling would have been an Unmade

That's one casualty in war, that is no reason to help the enemy

5 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

2. The Tower would have been lost,therefore there would be no home base for the Radiants,the coalition

An unfortunate setback

6 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

3.Odium would have been in a wayyyy better spot for negotaiting

If the terms are unacceptable you stall until they come back into your favor.

7 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

4. The morale for the entire team would have sunk

A miniscule cost.

 

Look, for every other order I wouldn't be anywhere near as upset about this, if Honor's laws were still enforced I wouldn't be upset, but the one check left on Bondsmith powers was forcably removed and Navani got power that didn't want her, and that drives me crazy

[Jenet]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Look, for every other order I wouldn't be anywhere near as upset about this, if Honor's laws were still enforced I wouldn't be upset, but the one check left on Bondsmith powers was forcably removed and Navani got power that didn't want her, and that drives me crazy

OK. so I will take you seriously again. I thought you were just being delibrately obtuse. 

But did you really expect Sanderson to start book five without some seriously badass challenges? For me, these books are about facing impossible problems with awesome, but flawed characters. Type: you find yourself facing the end of the world, and you are depressed and revengeful, or you are half crazy from being tricked into killing half the world's monarchs and their families, and you are trusted with a freakishly dangerous magical sword, and you are in doubt who you should pledge allegiance to, but for the time being, it's Dalinar Kholin. Or you are basically a killing machine that was used for killing anyone that your brother wanted you to kill, but you ended up killing your wife, got PTSD, drank yourself out of your wits, was drunk when your brother was killed, almost killed your spren because you were scared your were about to kill everyone around you.

Get the picture? This story is not about nitpicking at how people should have done things differently, had they only been wiser or had more restraint. It's about desperate situations, ordinary people with exeptional skills and difficult flaws. It's a huge, complex weave made of impossible challenges and people who see opportunities, not faults.

And every time our gang solves impossible problems, there must be created something new and even more terrible, so that they can have something to challenge their even more awesome magical forces that they aquired while fighting.

How about Taravangian becoming Odium?

Or witless Wit?

Or a bondsmith Herald gone crazy. And there you have a bondsmith without checks, because he has no spren that can break his bond because he went crazy.

Or Navani finding out the physics behind terribly dangerous weapons, and being forced to surrender her notes to the enemy, so that they can replicate one weapon that she has developed from her new knowledge.

Good thing then, that we have got heroes that have experience from being not perfect, who can understand difficulty, what it feels like to have failed. And how to think outside the box to make new weapons, from the insights and knowledge you got from your failure..

We need this to get a good story in the next book. And I, for one, am very happy that Sanderson chose this way to make it exciting. I find it believable and likeable.

Edited April 10, 2021 by Jenet

[Aspiring Writer]

I would simply like to remind both sides to calm down and tone down the snark just a tad. You're doing great.

 

And for my position, I must admit, the pro-Navani group has made some very good arguments (Along with some bad ones), and my position is not changed... yet.

Because of this conversation, I am reevaluating that scene. My position has not yet changed, but it is opened to being changed. So congratulations, you have done something very impressive, and that's to get me to re-analyze my position. (Granted, a lot of it was me thinking of counters to my own arguments because I have a weird duality way of thinking and like seeing every side, but there were points made by others that helped sway it, and you guys should be proud of making those points.)