Navani Foreshadowing

[Frustration]

11 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

Seems to me that most of the anti-Navani viewpoints are based on looking at the question of worthiness through the lens of the Stormfather and Dalinar. But given the three unique Bondsmith spren, isn’t it possible that they have unique and independent views of worthiness?

Which the Sibling clearly judges Navani to not be.

11 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

Yes, I concede that Navani was, in part, driven by a reckless curiosity and by wanting to see if she could do something without fully thinking through whether she should. But she was also driven by trying to find a way to help the Sibling and save Urithiru. And if we’re going to forgive Dalinar’s decades as a bloodthirsty tyrant and deem him worthy, I don’t see why we can’t cut Navani some slack for not fully thinking through the implications of her research while she was under the stress of a Fused occupation of Urithiru.

The difference is that Dalinar changed before he bonded, Navani didn't

11 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

Also, I think Brandon literally tells us in the text that Navani is worthy:

So I’m Team Navani. 

I have an entire thread on why I hate that scene.

 

Navani is a scholar, sure. Made a discovery(Warlight) sure, created something, eh I'll give it to her. Worthy? definetly not.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Frustration

[+mdross81]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Which the Sibling clearly judges Navani to not be.

And then the Sibling changed their mind. Which, actually, fits really well with some of the themes in the book of realizing the agency of spren and that they can change.

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The difference is that Dalinar changed before he bonded, Navani didn't

It wasn’t a matter of Navani needing to change. It was a matter of the Sibling coming to realize that Navani had honorable, worthy, intentions in addition to some folly.

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I have an entire thread on why I hate that scene.

I haven’t read it, but will check it out. For me, the scene worked.

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

And then the Sibling changed their mind. Which, actually, fits really well with some of the themes in the book of realizing the agency of spren and that they can change.

You will note that the Sibling never says Navani is worthy.

8 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

I haven’t read it, but will check it out. For me, the scene worked.

here

 

[Aspiring Writer]

41 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

Also, I think Brandon literally tells us in the text that Navani is worthy:

Ah yes, the mighty, 'the author said it, so it must be true'. part of this is that we disagree about that scene and what BS thought he was doing. BS can give his reasonings to try and explain it, but this isn't an argument where you can get a WoB saying Navani is worthy and end it.

I will grant your other points are good and due you credit, but that doesn't mean the Sibling didn't do it out of desperation, as Navani was their only choice. If given another choice, i do not think the Sibling would choose her, there is still that spren thing that would cause a rift.

19 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

And then the Sibling changed their mind. Which, actually, fits really well with some of the themes in the book of realizing the agency of spren and that they can change.

The theme of the text does not matter when we're questioning a scene. You can't say the reason the Sibling changed her mind is because 'it's thematic'. There are legit reasons why the Sibling would never bond Navani. She let go of her reservations about spren quickly, and you might says she still has a problem after the bond, but then i would counter that means the Sibling would prefer many other people before Navani.

[+mdross81]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You will note that the Sibling never says Navani is worthy.

here

 

The Sibling does not say that, you are right. So it’s fair to question whether (as I contend) the Sibling had an epiphany and changed their mind or whether the Sibling was just desperate.

I’ll grant that the reversal - if it happens - happens really quickly. But I guess I look at it in a way similar to Kaladin and the fourth Ideal. He had known for a while the Words he needed to say, but he couldn’t believe them, and therefore his swearing the Ideal could not be accepted.

If, in that moment, the Sibling didn’t think that Navani was worthy - or at the very least had shown herself capable of becoming worthy - I don’t think the bond would have taken.

[+mdross81]

4 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Ah yes, the mighty, 'the author said it, so it must be true'. part of this is that we disagree about that scene and what BS thought he was doing. BS can give his reasonings to try and explain it, but this isn't an argument where you can get a WoB saying Navani is worthy and end it.

...

The theme of the text does not matter when we're questioning a scene. You can't say the reason the Sibling changed her mind is because 'it's thematic'. There are legit reasons why the Sibling would never bond Navani. She let go of her reservations about spren quickly, and you might says she still has a problem after the bond, but then i would counter that means the Sibling would prefer many other people before Navani.

Totally fair to say that just because Brandon said it in the text doesn’t mean we have to think that it worked or made sense.

And as to the theme, I wasn’t arguing that it supported my view so much as just pointing out that I thought it fit nicely.

More substantively, regarding the Sibling’s desperation, as I said in response to @Frustration above, I don’t think the bond would have taken if the Sibling didn’t, at the very least, believe that Navani had shown herself to be capable of being worthy. 

[Frustration]

31 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

If, in that moment, the Sibling didn’t think that Navani was worthy - or at the very least had shown herself capable of becoming worthy - I don’t think the bond would have taken.

... That is a good point.

I still disagree and think the scene was delevered poorly but I guess that you might be cannonically correct.

[Quick Ben]

3 hours ago, mdross81 said:

I don’t think the bond would have taken if the Sibling didn’t, at the very least, believe that Navani had shown herself to be capable of being worthy. 

This is a fair point.

But i would point to the Reacher bonding Jaxlin (might be spelt wrong - Venli's mother) at the end of RoW as a counter point to this, given the Reacher had no way of knowing anything about her character and was still able to bond her, i think it stands to reason that when comes to the first ideal it simply comes down to willingness of the spren.

And when the choice was death or a bond, even to some one the Sibling herself found unworthy then of course she chose life so chose the bond. 

I see many people making points on Dalinar, in comparison to Navani, and they are all right, Dalinar until Cultivation remade him was completly and utterly unworthy. The only reason he became worthy was by being altered to the point he was a different person. (Unpopular opinion) Questionsable if he became worthy even after Cultivations intervention imo.

The sum of Navanis accomplishments doesnnot equate to worthiness to bond a bondsmith spren in my opinion, mainly because

1. She never truly unifys people, yes she gatheres scholars together, but anyone could of done that, yes she keeps the coalition together when Dalinar goes awol, but she didnt bring them together. She doesn't bridge any divides between disparate groups.

2. Her complete lack of intelligence when dealing with Rabional, imo she gullible to the point was hard to believe. And when creating "anti-light". The Sibling dislikes Navani for how she captures spren, well now she gave the enemy a way to kill spren. Which the Sibling (assumingly knows) which one would imagine would make the Sibling dislike Navani more. Also at no point does she consider the implications of what she is doing, all she thinks about is how she is finally "free" to do scholarship, that shows not only a complete lack of responsibility but also a lack of any forethought, which given the powers (or potential powers) of a bondsmith shows an unsuitability and thus an unworthiness to have those powers imo

[Jenet]

What is worthiness? 

Did the Stormfather think Dalinar was worthy before Dalinar just about forced the Stormfather to bond him?

I think that Navani's underlying feeling of unworthiness is reflecting on all around her. Gavilar knows her, and uses this term because he knows it will hurt. The sibling is very insecure, and is perhaps afraid that a bond with someone who thinks of herself as unworthy must be dangerous. Also, they hate the fabrial tech's expoitation of spren.

I think that a bondsmith must be a leader, and must be able to convince. Perhaps a prerequisite to bond a bondsmith spren is to convince the spren to bond you even though the spren really tries to dissuade you. 

Navani has always seemed a natural bondsmith to me, and I have expected her to bond the Sibling for a long time. My reasons for this is that she has been uniting people in difficult situations all the time. Every time Gavilar or Dalinar has been away, drunk, not caring for their guests, or out waging war, Navani has been there, helping people overcome their differences, their fear, their quarreling or their wish to go to war with each other. And a speciality of Navani's is her interest for sanitation and organising the infrastructure of cities and war camps. We are often told that she is organizing the repairs and structuring of sewage and sanitation, much to Dalinar's surprise and Gavilar's disgust.

The Sibling is all about sanitation, ventilation, and making a city function. Everything that we take for granted, and rather don't want to know about. Navani understands all that. She is even interested in it.

Discovering how to make anti-voidlight is very important. And impressive. Even though someone obvoiusly has done it before, it needed to be rediscovered. And she did it. Yes, Raboniel also got to know it, and that is dangerous, but nothing can be gained without risk. Navani would never have been able to rediscover the process if she had not cooperated amd united with Raboniel.

All research and development is a struggle into the unknown. You need to take risks. Especially when you are in an extremely pressed situation, occupied by a dangerous enemy. 

However, it do not think that Navani is found worthy because of her technical value as a scientist. She is worthy because of her abilities as a bondsmith. A leader. She actually managed to make a bond to _Raboniel_, the most fearsome of all the fused. Yes, they cheated each other and they were enemies, but they became as much friends that was possible, given the situation. And Navani killed Raboniel for good. One fused less.

In war, you seldom gain such enormous new insights and powerful new weapons without risk that the enemy will get to know some of it. But the enemy lost Raboniel, who was the only one who really understood the science. Yes, they got a written down method, but Navani got the understanding. And understanding will lead to more understanding, and even more advanced weapons.

The issue of the fabrials expoiting spren will be solved. They will find a compromise. Just as all new technology is accused of exploiting the environment before it has matured. You need time to find out that your methods are not sustainable. And Navani promises that she will find an acceptible compromise and a sustainable solution.

The sibling accepts this. And that means she is found worthy.

I accept that others may find that she is not, and that the story is flawed because of it, but to me, the story is perfectly logical, even impressively accurate when it comes to how research and development works. And how it should be led. 

A bondsmith should not be a scientist only. She should be a leader, and one who unites.

 

[Bejarden]

1 hour ago, Jenet said:

Did the Stormfather think Dalinar was worthy before Dalinar just about forced the Stormfather to bond him?

 

He gave Dalinar the visions so he must have thought h worthy. He could only give them to one person in Roshar and he chose Dalinar.

 

1 hour ago, Jenet said:

The issue of the fabrials expoiting spren will be solved. They will find a compromise. Just as all new technology is accused of exploiting the environment before it has matured. You need time to find out that your methods are not sustainable. And Navani promises that she will find an acceptible compromise and a sustainable 

Whenever anyone says no because of environment they are usually ignored. And they will be expesially here since Navani has very little political power.

And spren are sustainable, if inhumane 

It was given a choice bond or die it chose bond

1 hour ago, Jenet said:

In war, you seldom gain such enormous new insights and powerful new weapons without risk that the enemy will get to know some of it. But the enemy lost Raboniel, who was the only one who really understood the science. Yes, they got a written down method, but Navani got the understanding. And understanding will lead to more understanding, and even more advanced weapons.

There was no reason for the Fused to know about Anti-Light. Navani had no way to know that Urithiru would be back under the allies control but she still created it with reckless abandon.

She could have waited until the Fused left but she didn’t.

And she handed Anti-Light into Raboniel hands.

 There was no reason the Fused had to know the exact process In how to do it. She could have at least his the method or burned the Notebook.

This shows that she should no be trusted with Bondsmith powers.

she has no proven her self worthy and she proved herself incapable to handle power

[Isilel]

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

Navani is a scholar, sure. Made a discovery(Warlight) sure, created something, eh I'll give it to her. Worthy? definetly not.

Discovered the way of reversing the Unmaking and restoring Sibling's broken tone and you call it "eh"? Really?!!! Without her the Sibling wouldn't have been available for anybody to bond, because it wouldn't exist as itself anymore. I know that it is futile to engage in this discussion, because your mind seems complete set on Navani hate, but give the woman her due!

As an aside, I wonder if returning the mindless Unmade to what they used to be is now on the table. It would be a much more ethically thorny problem re: those that have minds, of course.

Concerning the Kholins lack of emotions in response to relatives/friends (ostensibly) dying, I chalk it up to writing failure, myself. Dalinar's, Adolin's and Ehlokar's non-reaction to Jasnah's alleged demise always stuck out like a sore thumb to me. Ditto Dalinar after obssessing with preserving Ehlokar's life for the 2 first books and supposedly loving his nephew, took his death completely in a stride. Ditto Dalinar never actually grieving any of his lost battle companions and friends and Adolin only doing it in the most vague terms. Navani  comes closest to reacting normally, even if in a "stiff upper lip" fashion, but her contentedness at the end of OB felt really off to me as well. OTOH, she at least mourned Jasnah and there are a number of indications in RoW of her grieving for Ehlokar, even though she does subsume it in her work. 

 

3 hours ago, Quick Ben said:

And when the choice was death or a bond, even to some one the Sibling herself found unworthy then of course she chose life so chose the bond. 

But the Stormfather wouldn't have chosen to bond or even to send visions at all if Honor's last will didn't compel him. In fact, he resisted Dalinar and tried to kill him!

 

3 hours ago, Quick Ben said:

I see many people making points on Dalinar, in comparison to Navani, and they are all right, Dalinar until Cultivation remade him was completly and utterly unworthy. The only reason he became worthy was by being altered to the point he was a different person.

There are very strong hints that Dalinar got his first vision from the Stormfather _before_ meeting Cultivation, even though he couldn't remember it afterwards. Granted, he was already on the way to the Nightwatcher. But let me adress the elephant in the room - do you think that Gavilar was worthy? Given that he was the Stormfather's first choice to receive the visions? Yet completely failed at speaking the Oaths, and not for the lack of knowledge/trying.

 

3 hours ago, Quick Ben said:

She never truly unifys people, yes she gatheres scholars together, but anyone could of done that, yes she keeps the coalition together when Dalinar goes awol, but she didnt bring them together. She doesn't bridge any divides between disparate groups.

You don't know that "anybody" could have gathered the scholars and given them the guidance she did. We have seen her provide them with the big ideas and direct their efforts in the most fruitful directions. It was also her contribution that helped convince the Azish to join the coalition and  she was the one who laid down the foundation of how coalition would function, what nation would take over which duties, etc. She was the one organizing and running Urithiru as a multinational city. From Sanderson's description of the Order:

 

Quote

Historically, they worked to resolve disputes and help set up functioning governments.

 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/424/#e13781

 

Keeping people together is very much a Bondsmith's job, as evidenced by the gem archives in OB. And doing it has been her job her whole life - first as Gavilar's helper, then in the last years of his reign, while he dove into esoteric pursuits and Dalinar drank, she was the one holding Alethkar together. Then she started helping Dalinar with building his ever-growing alliances and stepped in for him when neccessary.

And finally, as @Jenet pointed out, Navani found common ground with one of the more frightening Fused, and, in fact, fundamentally changed her  perception of humans! Which, being part of the notes, is likely to propagate to El and the other Fused.

[Jenet]

I think many of the objections to Navani's bond are aiming too low. A bondsmith, and especially at war, must aim high, and the stakes are often high and the risk huge.

In order to gain the upper hand in the arms race, she was forced to risk much. In a situation like she was in, it is impossible to predict all the dangers of your discoveries. But in this case, Navani actually discovered something very valuable, and team Odium never got their hands on the reasoning and knowledge behind the discovery. 

This is like stealing the drawings of your enemy's airplane design, but never understanding what laws of nature actually makes it fly. So you will never be able to develop new and more advanced weapons when the enemy uses her new understanding of the forces behind the weapon to develop something entirely new.

I have been working as a project manager in engineering R&D for many years, also in weapons,  and what many people don't understand is the nature of developing technology. It comes in leaps, often unpredictable, often quite coincidental. New and revolutionary ideas are quite valuable, and often not planned. But the people who are able to come up with ideas like that are the most rare, and thus most valuable.

Navani is often the one who is coming up with the new ideas. Many engineers can take an idea and make it work. But not that many can come up with the really new and revolutionary ideas. And these discoveries, like the anti-voidlight, may be a source for an entire new line of weapons that Team Odium will never be able to replicate, because they have a written recipe, but not the understanding behind it.

Navani herself falls into the trap of devaluing the creative part, that she is so good at. The coming up with the new stuff. Or the new method. Or the emulisfier. She thinks, like many people do, that the engineer who does the tinkering and produces the final gadget is the real hero. Truth is, everyone is needed. And Navani is the creative force, the funder, and the leader. Leading a group of R&D engineers is never about ordering people about. It is inspiring, dropping ideas, suggesting, coaxing a little here and there, providing more money, reminding people to focus (focus, Rushu), trying (often in vain) to keep the schedule, speaking to other stakeholders to get more resources and time.

You can't order people to be creative. 

Navani is the perfect leader for the kind of R&D I am used to. The one that is getting the best out of a group of people that are in fact very hard to order around. And if you tried, they will stop being creative.

Of course, in an environment where everyone is taught that leadership is being an officer, and order people directly and clearly, and requiring total and immediate obedience, it is easy to see oneself as not worthy as a leader, and the reader can easily be misled to think the same, since both Navani, Gavilar, and the Sibling all of them say that Navani is not worthy. This is a trick Sanderson often uses. He tells us what people think, not what the truth is. We must consider how trustworthy the opinions of the characters are. And I think that, considering all this, that neither of the three is trustworthy. Gavilar is angry, jealous and abusive, Navani has impostor syndrome, and the Sibling believes in Navani's opinion.

The Sibling is a different type of bondsmith spren than the Stormfather. I think it sound like they need a bondsmith with the Navani type of leadership philosophy. Because you need diversity, also in leadership.

 

[Infinity Sliver]

Honestly,people are explaining my thoughts way more than I can possibly do hahah

[Listener]

19 hours ago, Frustration said:

Who took inititive in that situation? Who started that? Who actually did anything to make it happen? Dalinar

Her patronage of artifabrians is not evidence for being a good Bondsmith

Yes.

As I've said before I don't know if it's Dalinar or someone near him, but whoever it is they get the credit.

So they would keep people with opposing intrests from fighitng and establish order in times of conflict?

And on top of this it does not say putting themselves in charge.

Kaladin.

But who actually did the job? Dalinar had a support staff but he was the one who did the work.

This says more about the average intelegence of the fused than it does about Navani

How is it wrong? Who does she unify that wasn't already on the same team?

So far the arguments in her favor are: "She's smart, and she's good at being in charge"

That isn't even close to enough.

The Sibling itself on the verge of being killed still almost refused her. That should tell us something. Her responce to being called unworthy is just "No I'm not" It's structured to give a call back to Gavilar but she never actually became worthy of being a bondsmith.

OK, firstly, it says clearly that Bondsmiths oaths take on many different shapes and just because Dalinar is the only example we had doesn't mean all Bondsmiths have to be modeled after him .And Dalinar started the unification but that doesn't mean that Navani didn't have a huge part in it. She was there in all the spanreed conversations helping smooth things over and it was her essay that convinced the Azish. She held the early meetings together and in both that book and the later one, she organized the whole tower and kept it running. Whoever discovered Anti-Light gets the credit for that but Navani had to work, theorize and experiment to rediscover how to do it. All she really had to go on was the fact that it did exist. Plus, Rlain was happy as a Truthwatcher and we never really saw him with any urge or affinity to unite. And she's not just smart and good at being in charge, she likes making order out of chaos and seeing things fit together. The Sibling refusing her doesn't mean as much as you would think since its clear that the Sibling has some biases and is prone to being a bit extreme.

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

Discovered the way of reversing the Unmaking and restoring Sibling's broken tone and you call it "eh"? Really?!!! Without her the Sibling wouldn't have been available for anybody to bond, because it wouldn't exist as itself anymore. I know that it is futile to engage in this discussion, because your mind seems complete set on Navani hate, but give the woman her due!

Stop right now and calm down, I have never once in this conversation insulted you, or cried that you refused to see what was right in fron of you, I have been reasonable I excpect the same back.

And The Sibling was not dead at that time, and Navani was not the only one able to help, Rlain can hear the pure tones to.

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

But the Stormfather wouldn't have chosen to bond or even to send visions at all if Honor's last will didn't compel him. In fact, he resisted Dalinar and tried to kill him!

There is a massive difference between doing what your Father says even if you don't like it, and doing what your enemy says because you will die otherwise.

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

There are very strong hints that Dalinar got his first vision from the Stormfather _before_ meeting Cultivation, even though he couldn't remember it afterwards. Granted, he was already on the way to the Nightwatcher. But let me adress the elephant in the room - do you think that Gavilar was worthy? Given that he was the Stormfather's first choice to receive the visions? Yet completely failed at speaking the Oaths, and not for the lack of knowledge/trying.

No I do not think he was worthy.

And I think his failure to draw stormlight shows I'm not the only one

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

You don't know that "anybody" could have gathered the scholars and given them the guidance she did. We have seen her provide them with the big ideas and direct their efforts in the most fruitful directions. It was also her contribution that helped convince the Azish to join the coalition and  she was the one who laid down the foundation of how coalition would function, what nation would take over which duties, etc. She was the one organizing and running Urithiru as a multinational city. From Sanderson's description of the Order:

Hundreds of people during the Rennassance sis just that, gathered a bunch of scholars, artits sculpters etc, all without being masters in any of those professions. Why? because they had money.

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

And finally, as @Jenet pointed out, Navani found common ground with one of the more frightening Fused, and, in fact, fundamentally changed her  perception of humans! Which, being part of the notes, is likely to propagate to El and the other Fused.

Raboniel's opinions on humans was the same pre and post Navani, same with El.

2 hours ago, Jenet said:

I think many of the objections to Navani's bond are aiming too low. A bondsmith, and especially at war, must aim high, and the stakes are often high and the risk huge.

In order to gain the upper hand in the arms race, she was forced to risk much. In a situation like she was in, it is impossible to predict all the dangers of your discoveries. But in this case, Navani actually discovered something very valuable, and team Odium never got their hands on the reasoning and knowledge behind the discovery. 

This is like stealing the drawings of your enemy's airplane design, but never understanding what laws of nature actually makes it fly. So you will never be able to develop new and more advanced weapons when the enemy uses her new understanding of the forces behind the weapon to develop something entirely new.

I have been working as a project manager in engineering R&D for many years, also in weapons,  and what many people don't understand is the nature of developing technology. It comes in leaps, often unpredictable, often quite coincidental. New and revolutionary ideas are quite valuable, and often not planned. But the people who are able to come up with ideas like that are the most rare, and thus most valuable.

There is just the small problem that it is infinatly easier for the Fused to get stormlight than for the Radiants to get Voidlight. There was not a valuable trade off there, that's like the US making the Nuke but Russia has hundreds of tons of Uranium sitting around in massive piles, it helps the Fused far more than it helps the Radiants, esspecially when the Radiants already had a way to permakill Fused.

5 hours ago, Jenet said:

I think that a bondsmith must be a leader, and must be able to convince. Perhaps a prerequisite to bond a bondsmith spren is to convince the spren to bond you even though the spren really tries to dissuade you. 

The Sibling tells us that they spent years handpicking their Bondsmith.

1 hour ago, Listener said:

OK, firstly, it says clearly that Bondsmiths oaths take on many different shapes and just because Dalinar is the only example we had doesn't mean all Bondsmiths have to be modeled after him .And Dalinar started the unification but that doesn't mean that Navani didn't have a huge part in it. She was there in all the spanreed conversations helping smooth things over and it was her essay that convinced the Azish. She held the early meetings together and in both that book and the later one, she organized the whole tower and kept it running. Whoever discovered Anti-Light gets the credit for that but Navani had to work, theorize and experiment to rediscover how to do it. All she really had to go on was the fact that it did exist. Plus, Rlain was happy as a Truthwatcher and we never really saw him with any urge or affinity to unite. And she's not just smart and good at being in charge, she likes making order out of chaos and seeing things fit together. The Sibling refusing her doesn't mean as much as you would think since its clear that the Sibling has some biases and is prone to being a bit extreme.

With Honor dead and his limit's fading more care must be taken to ensure that the unworthy cannot become Bondsmiths, not less, Navani cannot be allowed to get in by the egde of her teeth, flying colors must be shown at every point or they must be rejected.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Frustration

[Jenet]

We have heaps of examples of things happening differently now than how they used to be. We can't use rules from ancient times to judge what is possible or not now. And fact is that the Sibling bonded Navani. Like it or not. I find it interesting to wonder what possibilities may come from that bond, perhaps of a kind that has never happened before.

One of the interesting factors in the Stormlight Archive, is that many things have changed since last time the magic was around. The rules are not the same. This means new possibilities, and tactics and strategies that the enemy is not prepared for. It seems that team Dalinar has the upper hand when it comes to harnessing the new. Let us not be pissed because they have a chance to turn the magic a couple of degrees and combine everything in a slightly new way. I like the opportunities instead.

So the Sibling did not have a long time to consider their bondsmith this time. Or maybe they did consider her cleverness in organising the community in the tower, but did not like the use of spren in fabrials. That does not matter. They chose Navani. Either in panic or after slow but resisting consideration. Much must be risked at war. The Sibling was brave, and took the risk. The alternative was becoming an Unmade, and there would be no bondsmith at all.

War is not a time when you can wait until the ideal moment or the ideal choice presents itself. You must go for the best decision you can see at the moment, and make it work. Quickly. The Sibling and Navani did just that. And that is knightly too.

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Jenet

[Infinity Sliver]

36 minutes ago, Frustration said:

With Honor dead and his limit's fading more care must be taken to ensure that the unworthy cannot become Bondsmiths, not less, Navani cannot be allowed to get in by the egde of her teeth, flying colors must be shown at every point or they must be rejected.

I get the Honor dead thing,but Dalinar has def not shown flying colors at every point. Did anyone complain when he drowned himself in alcohol in Oathbringer? He redeemed himself and came right back.And this is after he's bonded the SF,so does that mean he should be rejected? 

Navani hasnt even been given the chance to fail,again,the only reason the Sibling gave for Navani's unworthiness was her capturing spren,nothing about mistakes or what not,in the end,she was chosen. The book ended before we were given a chance to explore more so I say we wait a few years and see what Brandon delivers.

 

Also,we have established she is a scholar right?

2 minutes ago, Jenet said:

So the Sibling did not have a long time to consider their bondsmith this time. Or maybe they did consider her cleverness in organising the community in the tower, but did not like the use of spren in fabrials. That does not matter. They chose Navani. Either in panic or after slow but resisting consideration. Much must be risked at war. The Sibling was brave, and took the risk. The alternative was becoming an Unmade, and there would be no bondsmith at all.

War is not a time when you can wait until the ideal moment or the ideal choice presents itself. You must go for the best desicion you can see at the moment, and make it work. Quickly. The Sibling and Navani did just that. And that is knightly too.

 

YESSSSSSSSSS!

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, Jenet said:

War is not a time when you can wait until the ideal moment or the ideal choice presents itself. You must go for the best desicion you can see at the moment, and make it work. Quickly. The Sibling and Navani did just that. And that is knightly too.

If this were the philosophy of world leaders we would have been in Nuclear war by now.

3 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

I get the Honor dead thing,but Dalinar has def not shown flying colors at every point. Did anyone complain when he drowned himself in alcohol in Oathbringer? He redeemed himself and came right back.And this is after he's bonded the SF,so does that mean he should be rejected? 

If I had been the Strormfather I would have broken the bond right then and there, so yes.

3 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

Navani hasnt even been given the chance to fail,again,the only reason the Sibling gave for Navani's unworthiness was her capturing spren,nothing about mistakes or what not,in the end,she was chosen. The book ended before we were given a chance to explore more so I say we wait a few years and see what Brandon delivers.

He already failed to deliver, I'm still going to read but I'm not going to suspend my Frustration for five years.

[Jenet]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If this were the philosophy of world leaders we would have been in Nuclear war by now.

We are not in a war. We are trying to avoid war. The strategy of avoiding a war and the frenetic tactics of getting out of a life threatening situation when you are already in a battle are two quite different things.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Jenet

[Infinity Sliver]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

If this were the philosophy of world leaders we would have been in Nuclear war by now.

And we've come really close to that case at least once,but it shows it can happen

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If I had been the Strormfather I would have broken the bond right then and there, so yes.

But you arent,and this is the SF that is beginning to understand humans more too. We make mistakes,it happens. Hell,Kaladin is def not worthy then cause he almost killed Syl in..WOR i think when he almost breaks his oaths. Teft too,before his Ideal that saves people in Oathbringer. Why arent we judging these people who made mistakes AFTER their bonds?

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He already failed to deliver, I'm still going to read but I'm not going to suspend my Frustration for five years.

hahaha,like what you did there. But I dont think he failed to deliver,in the end,this is his vision

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Jenet said:

We are not in a war. We are trying to avoid war. The strategy of avoiding a war and the frenetic tactics of getting out of a life threatening situation when you are already in a battle is two quite different things.

We have had several wars since WW2, if we jumped stright to the biggest weapon we have it would have been used, war is not a time for an all out frenzy, it is a time for careful and methodical practices, otherwise you will make a mistake and you will forget it.

Just now, Infinitysliver said:

And we've come really close to that case at least once,but it shows it can happen

But we can all agree that it is not a good outcome

1 minute ago, Infinitysliver said:

But you arent,and this is the SF that is beginning to understand humans more too. We make mistakes,it happens. Hell,Kaladin is def not worthy then cause he almost killed Syl in..WOR i think when he almost breaks his oaths. Teft too,before his Ideal that saves people in Oathbringer. Why arent we judging these people who made mistakes AFTER their bonds?

I wasn't pleased with Kaladin either, and Teft did not almost break his Oath, his spren was still there.

I have judged them, but right now we are talking about Navani, and on top of that I'm willing to give other orders more leeway than Bondsmiths.

3 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

hahaha,like what you did there. But I dont think he failed to deliver,in the end,this is his vision

You're welcome to that opinion, I'm glad you can enjoy it but it has always left me uncomfotable.

[Jenet]

4 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

 

But you arent,and this is the SF that is beginning to understand humans more too. We make mistakes,it happens. Hell,Kaladin is def not worthy then cause he almost killed Syl in..WOR i think when he almost breaks his oaths. Teft too,before his Ideal that saves people in Oathbringer. Why arent we judging these people who made mistakes AFTER their bonds?

 

This baffles me again and again. Kaladin gets away with everything, and becomes more and more popular with the readers the more grumpy and unreliable he gets. We forgive him, we understand. Also we understand and forgive Dalinar. But Shallan and Navani are often picked on for every little detail, and not forgiven even after we have been told the background for their behaviour. Very interesting to me. Is it because of the first impressions?

[+mdross81]

I think @Infinitysliver's original post was just trying to appreciate how the criticisms that Gavilar threw at Navani in the prologue were foreshadowing the ways in which Navani would later prove him wrong. And I think in pretty much every instance she does prove him wrong.

• You claim to be a scholar, but where are your discoveries?; and later: You are no scholar. -- I think everyone agrees that she is a scholar
• You study light, but your are its opposite. A thing that destroys light. -- obvious foreshadowing of anti-Light
• You spend your time wallowing in the muck of the kitchens and obsessing about whether some insignificant lighteyes recognizes the right lines on a map. -- Her wallowing in the muck of how things work and understanding of how to navigate personal politics prove important to the coalition's efforts
• You are no artifabrian. -- she clearly is one
• You have no fame, accomplishment, or capacity of your own. -- I don't think anyone can deny that she now has all three

The only thing that Gavilar threw at her that seems to be up for debate is "You are not worthy." But to be clear, the context of Gavilar saying that was him saying that she was not worthy of being involved in his secretive plans. That is different from the question of her worthiness to bond the Sibling.

I'm curious for those who take the view that Navani should not be bonded to the Sibling - is it more about concern for the Sibling or about disliking Navani? I can get the former, but the latter - particularly the argument that she is not responsible enough to be entrusted with Bondsmith powers - doesn't track for me.

[Infinity Sliver]

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I wasn't pleased with Kaladin either, and Teft did not almost break his Oath, his spren was still there.

Then Kaladin has to be help up to a high standard as well,especially since Syl is the Ancient Daughter and there is obviously something special about him. For Teft,i just meant firemoss when he was most likely first ideal(i think)

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I have judged them, but right now we are talking about Navani, and on top of that I'm willing to give other orders more leeway than Bondsmiths.

Then Dalinar has to be declared unworthy then,forgetting about everything that happened AFTER he came back from his drunken days 

 

7 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

I'm curious for those who take the view that Navani should not be bonded to the Sibling - is it more about concern for the Sibling or about disliking Navani? I can get the former, but the latter - particularly the argument that she is not responsible enough to be entrusted with Bondsmith powers - doesn't track for me.

I think for most its the latter,because she made the mistake of revealing the anti-Light research. One mistake doesnt invalidate everything else,especially when the Sibling doesnt bring that up as a reason for not been worthy(tbf,i dont quite remember if the Sibling was aware of the anti-Light research).

[Frustration]

13 minutes ago, Jenet said:

This baffles me again and again. Kaladin gets away with everything, and becomes more and more popular with the readers the more grumpy and unreliable he gets. We forgive him, we understand. Also we understand and forgive Dalinar. But Shallan and Navani are often picked on for every little detail, and not forgiven even after we have been told the background for their behaviour. Very interesting to me. Is it because of the first impressions?

I think there are two main reasons, Dalinar and Kaladin get climactic redemptions while Shallan is still dealing with the same thing three books later

and first impression, in WoK Shallan was by far the most annoying PoV the only thing she did was take time away from the things I actually wanted to read, and the dislike has stuck around.

As for Navani(for me) it's that the Sibling get's treated as a shiny reward for "character deveoplment" and is not responsible enough for such power, and a small bit of countering the people who like her far more than I feel she deserves.

10 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

I'm curious for those who take the view that Navani should not be bonded to the Sibling - is it more about concern for the Sibling or about disliking Navani? I can get the former, but the latter - particularly the argument that she is not responsible enough to be entrusted with Bondsmith powers - doesn't track for me.

Very few people will ever be worthy of Bondsmith powers, I'd say that the amount of people unworthy of it might as well be 100%

Just now, Infinitysliver said:

Then Kaladin has to be help up to a high standard as well,especially since Syl is the Ancient Daughter and there is obviously something special about him. For Teft,i just meant firemoss when he was most likely first ideal(i think)

Kaladin has not displayed power even near being a Bondsmith. I don't see how Syl changes anything

1 minute ago, Infinitysliver said:

Then Dalinar has to be declared unworthy then,forgetting about everything that happened AFTER he came back from his drunken days 

I never said Navani could never become worthy, just that right now she is not.