Navani Foreshadowing

[Frustration]

Just now, Infinitysliver said:

And yea i do,and so why does that preclude her from been able to responsibly harness such powers or realize the scope and act accordingly?

With that kind of power there is no room for error, Bondsmith MUST be vetted far more strigently than any other order. I wouldn't trust anyone, not even myself with that level of power IRL, esspecially not someone that the one check on that power didn't want to have it.

[Infinity Sliver]

2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

No. She willingly makes the most dangerous substance in the Cosmere knowing that it would help the enemy.

She didn’t wait to be freed, she handed into Raboniels hand.

All she did was try halfheartedly to hide it on her desk in plain view.

This resulted in the death of 2 slivers of a Shard and will make hundreds more possible even as the war is coming to the end and Dalinar has found an agreement.

She knew exactly what it looked like and that it was a very possible thing to create.

I dont  care about how Navani would have her feelings hurt by the truth

Edit: Please stop double posting just edit your last post

  Hide contents

 

Ok,she knew what it looked like takes away that she re discovered it? thats like taking away the discovery of fire because they saw it before so knew what to look for. Or other discoveries because they saw something happen and decided to recreate it. Come on now.

Yes,it was dangerous,of course it was,no one is denying it,but is this point supposed to be against her been a scholar or been worthy? 

What truth will Navani be hurt over?

[Infinity Sliver]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

With that kind of power there is no room for error, Bondsmith MUST be vetted far more strigently than any other order. I wouldn't trust anyone, not even myself with that level of power IRL, esspecially not someone that the one check on that power didn't want to have it.

I mean,there is some room for error hahaha

But still,Dalinar,even past the first oath,faltered in Oathbringer didnt he? Forcing SF into a sword for the Oathgate,going back to alcohol also. And this is after he bonded the SF,we can def give Navani some wiggle room then.

[Bejarden]

5 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

Ok,she knew what it looked like takes away that she re discovered it? thats like taking away the discovery of fire because they saw it before so knew what to look for. Or other discoveries because they saw something happen and decided to recreate it. Come on now.

Yes,it was dangerous,of course it was,no one is denying it,but is this point supposed to be against her been a scholar or been worthy? 

What truth will Navani be hurt over?

2 things can be true at once 1: Gavilar created Anti-light 2: Navani made it available to everyone 

She is to blame not Gavilar who kept it a secret.

I don’t know you said that a 1000 year old scientist would have their feelings hurt by something, I couldn’t decipher the exact meaning of your post

Edit: Please stop Double posting @Infinitysliver

Dalinar proved himself as a honorable man which is what the Stormfather wanted.

Just because he faltered for one week does not make him unworthy in fact it made him more worthy because he showed he could move on.

Navani has not proved herself and is a completely reckless semi-scientist 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Bejardin1250
Not to double posting

[Infinity Sliver]

10 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

2 things can be true at once 1: Gavilar created Anti-light 2: Navani made it available to everyone 

She is to blame not Gavilar who kept it a secret.

I don’t know you said that a 1000 year old scientist would have their feelings hurt by something, I couldn’t decipher the exact meaning of your post

Edit: Please stop Double posting @Infinitysliver

Dalinar proved himself as a honorable man which is what the Stormfather wanted.

Just because he faltered for one week does not make him unworthy in fact it made him more worthy because he showed he could move on.

Navani has not proved herself and is a completely reckless semi-scientist 

How am i double posting? I dont get it

And yea i know Gavilar didnt make it public and Navani did,i never said anything about that

no,i didnt say anything about anyone getitng their feelings hurt,

She is not a semi scientist,she is one. Even the wiki(i acknowledge that it is edited by someone) calls her a scholar. 

Ok,it proves Dalinar can move on,so why not give Navani that chance. She moved on from her husband dying,thinking her only daughter was dead,her son dying,losing her kingdom and thinking she lost her grandson too,Navani has proven she can move on so you cant really use that point?

Edited April 9, 2021 by Infinitysliver

[Bejarden]

Double posting is when you post twice in a row without anyone posting in between

The mods don’t like it because it takes up to much space.

You are making your posts really confusing with your punctuation and spacing so if I misunderstood your points then I would suggest working on it.

10 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

She is not a semi scientist,she is one. Even the wiki(i acknowledge that it is edited by someone) calls her a scholar. 

She takes the genius of others and harnesses them.

She’s a scientist but not a genius also anything not sourced on the Wiki can be false since it is not updated frequently and anyone can edit.

11 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

Ok,it proves Dalinar can move on,so why not give Navani that chance. She moved on from her husband dying,thinking her only daughter was dead,her son dying,losing her kingdom and thinking she lost her grandson too,Navani has proven she can move on so you cant really use that point?

That isn’t her moving on from a traumatic experience because we never saw any reaction.

She is completely emotionless during all of the events.

Maybe this is normal but it seems weird to me and I believe it will be a plot point later on

 

[Aspiring Writer]

20 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

How am i double posting? I dont get it

When you post something, don;t post again, just edit your previous post until someone else responds.

 

20 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

She is not a semi scientist,she is one.

I agree, I don't think this should be in contention. She's an irresponsible scientist, but still a scientist. 

 

20 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

Ok,it proves Dalinar can move on,so why not give Navani that chance. She moved on from her husband dying,thinking her only daughter was dead,her son dying,losing her kingdom and thinking she lost her grandson too,Navani has proven she can move on so you cant really use that point?

Navani has not shown to be worthy of a bond NOW. Whether she can improve to that is irrelevant to this discussion. She does not unify people, though she is an impressive leader. She does not show any concern for unlocking a power that will dramatically change the entire war and cause immortals to die, and now has the power that helped destroy Asyhn. The Sibling does not trust Navani for trapping spren, and Navani convinces her by saying, 'screw that I am'. How does that change the Sibling's mind? What does navani show that makes her worthy of this order? Saying Navani is worthy and then listing down her accomplishments is not changing that she does not fit this order. This would be like Szeth listing out how he listens to a rock for most of his life to try and get an Honorspren. 

Quote

She is completely emotionless during all of the events.

@Bejardin1250 No, she is not. When she hears Jasnah dies, she is depressed for most of WoR. When Elhakor dies, she is upset bit doesn't have time to grieve for him. We see she is still in pain from that when she sees his shardblade. This may come up in the future still, but we have seen that she does grieve for him, just not openly.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Aspiring Writer

[Bejarden]

6 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

No, she is not. When she hears Jasnah dies, she is depressed for most of WoR. When Elhakor dies, she is upset bit doesn't have time to grieve for him. We see she is still in pain from that when she sees his shardblade. This may come up in the future still, but we have seen that she does grieve for him, just not openly.

She’s... pretty emotionless. She hears her son is dead and basically the same but grieves for 20 or so minutes.
She insults her husbands memory even though she once loved him, by marrying his brother.

Being only depressed for her daughter’s violent murder seems a little...tame 

Private grieving when we get into the characters mind in a POV doesn’t work as an excuse.

 

[Aspiring Writer]

2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

She’s... pretty emotionless. She hears her son is dead and basically the same but grieves for 20 or so minutes.
She insults her husbands memory even though she once loved him, by marrying his brother.

Being only depressed for her daughter’s violent murder seems a little...tame 

Private grieving when we get into the characters mind in a POV doesn’t work as an excuse.

 

She has a city to clean up, and it's her way of coping, especially after the last time she grieved she ignored a lot of important stuff and doesn't want that to happen again. She would've helped Shallan earlier if she didn't remind her of Jasnah.

her husband became an abusive monster and she always loved Dalinar. And how is it disrespectful to want to move on? Should she spend the rest of her life alone because the person you want to and always wanted to be with because of your dead husband?

What else are you expecting? She doesn't exactly have a target for vengeance right now, does she? (And violent death is not something new to her, mate, she's storming Alethi, they all expect to die violently.)

She has more pressing issues, grieving is not something she has time for and she clearly doesn't want to think about when the shard reminds her of it and she proceeds to shove it down.

 

[Infinity Sliver]

16 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Navani has not shown to be worthy of a bond NOW. Whether she can improve to that is irrelevant to this discussion. She does not unify people, though she is an impressive leader. She does not show any concern for unlocking a power that will dramatically change the entire war and cause immortals to die, and now has the power that helped destroy Asyhn. The Sibling does not trust Navani for trapping spren, and Navani convinces her by saying, 'screw that I am'. How does that change the Sibling's mind? What does navani show that makes her worthy of this order? Saying Navani is worthy and then listing down her accomplishments is not changing that she does not fit this order. This would be like Szeth listing out how he listens to a rock for most of his life to try and get an Honorspren. 

I wasnt saying this is why she's worthy,I was just saying that saying that @Bejardin1250 said Dalinar moved on proves his worthiness,so therfore Navani moving on from all that should prove her worthiness too and then I said he cant use that as a basis for worthiness

[Aspiring Writer]

1 minute ago, Infinitysliver said:

I wasnt saying this is why she's worthy,I was just saying that saying that @Bejardin1250 said Dalinar moved on proves his worthiness,so therfore Navani moving on from all that should prove her worthiness too and then I said he cant use that as a basis for worthiness

if that was his point, then yeah, that point is terrible. Not sure if that is though, I will let him clarify.

[Frustration]

33 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

I mean,there is some room for error hahaha

But still,Dalinar,even past the first oath,faltered in Oathbringer didnt he? Forcing SF into a sword for the Oathgate,going back to alcohol also. And this is after he bonded the SF,we can def give Navani some wiggle room then.

I was not please with Dalinar's choice there, and no I will not give Navani wiggle room, if Dalinar ever starts stealing Connections I will lose all respect for him and declair lound and far he is unworthy. I don't complain about him because he has shown restraint with what he does, but Navani doesn't strike me as anywhere near as restrained

[Bejarden]

 So it doesn’t seem weird to you at all? that she can just turn off her emotions and “deal with something else” 

I get that if your pet or friend died, but your child? I don’t see how anything could help you feel better and at the very least you should cry.

4 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

What else are you expecting? She doesn't exactly have a target for vengeance right now, does she? (And violent death is not something new to her, mate, she's storming Alethi, they all expect to die violently.)

I’m gonna straight disagree with you here. 
no one expects their child who is a scholar to be violently murdered in an assassination. 

 

3 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

I wasnt saying this is why she's worthy,I was just saying that saying that @Bejardin1250 said Dalinar moved on proves his worthiness,so therfore Navani moving on from all that should prove her worthiness too and then I said he cant use that as a basis for worthiness

I was saying that is not a reason to not be worthy. He was worthy before and still was after a rough bump.

Thanks for that @Aspiring Writer

[Aspiring Writer]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I was not please with Dalinar's choice there, and no I will not give Navani wiggle room, if Dalinar ever starts stealing Connections I will lose all respect for him and declair lound and far he is unworthy. I don't complain about him because he has shown restraint with what he does, but Navani doesn't strike me as anywhere near as restrained

Yeah, Navani seems like the type you would experiment with those abilities and accidentally severe a person's connections completely, she doesn't seem to care much about the consequences when there is experimenting to be done.

 

3 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

So it doesn’t seem weird to you at all? that she can just turn off her emotions and “deal with something else” 

Everyone has their way of coping. It's what I would do. She doesn't nearly turn off the emotions as never confronting them and not letting her think about it. kind of like Shallan, actually.

 

5 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

no one expects their child who is a scholar to be violently murdered in an assassination. 

She's a scholar, but a scholar who had very controversial beliefs and I believe says that a lot of people tried to assassinate her before (She was almost assassinated in the first book) and this is a time where there is no other way for her to die suddenly and not violently. And honestly, how she died is really that important compared to the fact she is dead. Like, remember, she was refusing o believe she was dead and complaining how she left jasnah to drown after hearing she got an axe through the chest.

 

8 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Thanks for that @Aspiring Writer

No problem.

[Infinity Sliver]

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I was not please with Dalinar's choice there, and no I will not give Navani wiggle room, if Dalinar ever starts stealing Connections I will lose all respect for him and declair lound and far he is unworthy. I don't complain about him because he has shown restraint with what he does, but Navani doesn't strike me as anywhere near as restrained

Thats what i mean though,Navani hasnt shown that she wont be responsible with the powers at all,she's learnt from dealing with Raboniel so why?

 

10 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

 So it doesn’t seem weird to you at all? that she can just turn off her emotions and “deal with something else” 

I get that if your pet or friend died, but your child? I don’t see how anything could help you feel better and at the very least you should cry.

I’m gonna straight disagree with you here. 
no one expects their child who is a scholar to be violently murdered in an assassination. 

Adolin literally saw Elhokar's dead body then said he cant mourn now,he had other pressing stuff to do,that is what Navani did. As what @Aspiring Writer said ,they are Alethi,Jasnah was one of the world's famous heretic,denoucing the Vorin teachings and what not,Jasnah kept assasins in employ because of the possibility that they would be used against her family,of course they are aware they have targets on their back

Edited April 9, 2021 by Infinitysliver

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Infinitysliver said:

Thats what i mean though,Navani hasnt shown that she wont be responsible with the powers at all,she's learnt from dealing with Raboniel so why?

She has indeed shown that the question of "can it be done?" is more important to her than "should it be done?"

And even if she hadn't shown that, she hasn't shown that she would be responsible with that kind of power, and is thus unworthy.

[Bejarden]

1 minute ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Everyone has their way of coping. She doesn't nearly turn off the emotions as never confronting them and not letting her think about it. kind of like Shallan, actually.

Shallan is insane so she’s not exactly the best role model.

1 minute ago, Infinitysliver said:

Thats what i mean though,Navani hasnt shown that she wont be responsible with the powers at all,she's learnt from dealing with Raboniel so why?

 

She literally handed Raboniel the most dangerous substance ever.

that’s proof enough she’s not responsible 

3 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

She's a scholar, but a scholar who had very controversial beliefs and I believe says that a lot of people tried to assassinate her before (She was almost assassinated in the first book) and this is a time where there is no other way for her to die suddenly and not violently. And honestly, how she died is really that important compared to the fact she is dead. Like, remember, she was refusing o believe she was dead and complaining how she left jasnah to drown after hearing she got an axe through the chest.

 

So let me pose an example to you.

You have a child who is a controversial political figure. You love this child with all your heart as all parents do. Then your child sends you a letter that she will be visiting for the first time in years and is bringing a wife for your beloved nephew. And then right before she arrives she is murdered

How would it make you feel?

[Aspiring Writer]

2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Shallan is insane so she’s not exactly the best role model.

I get that, but pushing down grief isn't meant to be a good way of handling grief

 

3 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

So let me pose an example to you.

You have a child who is a controversial political figure. You love this child with all your heart as all parents do. Then your child sends you a letter that she will be visiting for the first time in years and is bringing a wife for your beloved nephew. And then right before she arrives she is murdered

How would it make you feel?

Depressed and empty. I would accept it, but I would start trying to fill the hole with something. That is my response. 

Navani's was to at first not believe shallan about Jasnah and then refuse to meet shallan because she reminds you of Jasnah, and then be depressed. It's a realistic response.

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

So let me pose an example to you.

You have a child who is a controversial political figure. You love this child with all your heart as all parents do. Then your child sends you a letter that she will be visiting for the first time in years and is bringing a wife for your beloved nephew. And then right before she arrives she is murdered

How would it make you feel?

I can''t say exactly as I don't have a child but I don't tend to have overly emotional reactions to most things, I don't think Navani's reaction was overly unrealistic.

[Bejarden]

Okay... I just think there’s a place Jasnah gets her emotionless from

[Infinity Sliver]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

She has indeed shown that the question of "can it be done?" is more important to her than "should it be done?"

And even if she hadn't shown that, she hasn't shown that she would be responsible with that kind of power, and is thus unworthy.

And thats not something you can learn from? Why shouldnt she be given a chance? She's been in power before,same as Dalinar,only thing is that Dalinar started following the teachings(forget the name,The way of kings right?) and so began on that path,but Navani has always been in leadership. 

 

6 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

She literally handed Raboniel the most dangerous substance ever.

that’s proof enough she’s not responsible 

Dalinar was a tyrant before killing Evi,having a mind wipe,going through an alcohol stage UNTIL Gavilar's death and Dalinar starting to to follow TWOK. Was Dalinar worthy then? He accepted his role,became a better person etc etc. Why does Dalinar get to be said to be responsible? 

 

4 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Okay... I just think there’s a place Jasnah gets her emotionless from

Oh come on,blaming Navani for this too?

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Infinitysliver said:

And thats not something you can learn from? Why shouldnt she be given a chance? She's been in power before,same as Dalinar,only thing is that Dalinar started following the teachings(forget the name,The way of kings right?) and so began on that path,but Navani has always been in leadership. 

It is something you can learn from, but(for Bondsmiths) it is something that should be learned before the bond

2 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

Dalinar was a tyrant before killing Evi,having a mind wipe,going through an alcohol stage UNTIL Gavilar's death and Dalinar starting to to follow TWOK. Was Dalinar worthy then? He accepted his role,became a better person etc etc. Why does Dalinar get to be said to be responsible? 

Dalinar had already mostly corrected and gained a large degree of self control as well as moral boundaries before he bonded

3 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

Oh come on,blaming Navani for this too?

Navani is responsible for everything

[Bejarden]

1 minute ago, Infinitysliver said:

And thats not something you can learn from? Why shouldnt she be given a chance? She's been in power before,same as Dalinar,only thing is that Dalinar started following the teachings(forget the name,The way of kings right?) and so began on that path,but Navani has always been in leadership. 

Some people are not trustworthy. Maybe if she passes the bond and works on herself for the year she can come back.

 

2 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

Dalinar was a tyrant before killing Evi,having a mind wipe,going through an alcohol stage UNTIL Gavilar's death and Dalinar starting to to follow TWOK. Was Dalinar worthy then? He accepted his role,became a better person etc etc. Why does Dalinar get to be said to be responsible? 

He was not worthy then. He was only worthy because of Cultivation’s intervention.

After Cultivation without the most powerful set in Roshar he proves himself worthy

3 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

8 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

 

Oh come on,blaming Navani for this too?

Yep

[Aspiring Writer]

9 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

Oh come on,blaming Navani for this too?

Everything is Navani's fault. She will be the main antagonist in book 10 after getting all three of the shards and trying to make everyone into fabrials and then become the cosmere wide villain as she tries to get the Shard Invention, which was her entire goal since she was born!

 

[+mdross81]

I’ve been watching this thread with a mixture of amusement and annoyance. I am going to plant my flag firmly in the pro-Navani camp.

Seems to me that most of the anti-Navani viewpoints are based on looking at the question of worthiness through the lens of the Stormfather and Dalinar. But given the three unique Bondsmith spren, isn’t it possible that they have unique and independent views of worthiness?

More substantively, I don’t think that the Sibling just accepted Navani out of desperation. I think that the Sibling was being (understandably) stubborn right up until the point when they heard the Rhythm of War and saw humans and singers finding common purpose in defending the unconscious Radiants; and when Navani, with storming Moash walking toward her intending to kill her, rather than trying to save herself, inverted Odium’s tone to try to drive the Voidlight out of the Sibling. Then Navani, having shown she can act with honor, finds Honor’s tone, and is able to modulate and find harmony with the Sibling, reminding the Sibling of the emulsifier, the common purpose between humans and spren.

Yes, I concede that Navani was, in part, driven by a reckless curiosity and by wanting to see if she could do something without fully thinking through whether she should. But she was also driven by trying to find a way to help the Sibling and save Urithiru. And if we’re going to forgive Dalinar’s decades as a bloodthirsty tyrant and deem him worthy, I don’t see why we can’t cut Navani some slack for not fully thinking through the implications of her research while she was under the stress of a Fused occupation of Urithiru.

Also, I think Brandon literally tells us in the text that Navani is worthy:

Quote

Not worthy.

The words echoed against Navani’s soul, and for the moment she forgot Moash. She forgot the tower. She was someplace else.

Not good enough.

Not a scholar.

Not a creator.

You have no fame, accomplishment, or capacity of your own. Everything that is distinctive about you came from someone else.

“Lies,” she whispered. And they were.

They truly were.

So I’m Team Navani. 

Edited April 9, 2021 by mdross81