Navani Foreshadowing

[Aspiring Writer]

47 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

Thats where im remembering things different. He wasnt told to choose a Bondsmith,he was told to show visions to a Bondsmith,or to a person who would benefit from them(according to the wiki).

I remember very clearly he tells Dalinar that he had to 'choose a bondsmith." It is a line that stuck in my head (mostly because the way I imagine his voice when saying that line is really smooth and nice. I really like the Stormfather, every line he says is perfect.)

 

22 minutes ago, Lanaya said:

That's my whole point...Who had the foresight of designing a flying ship? Were fabrials having a great boom during Gavilar's reign? I actually stopped responding to you specifically on a  previous thread because you offer no counter arguments and literally said "I don't agree with your statement". If you actually want to offer input instead of just saying "I don't agree", i will respond but so far I haven't seen much.

Tone down the snark. he has provided a counter, and you haven't exactly been here long.

And your point has nothing to do with unifying. I get Navani has done incredible things, but very few of them have anything to do with unifying people. Kaladin had to get a crew that hated itself to work together and think of themselves like family, which is a good example of unifying. Designing a flying ship shows her skills as a scholar and fabrailtion (I'm so sorry for butchering that word), not as a unifier. 

 

Edited April 8, 2021 by Aspiring Writer

[Quick Ben]

13 minutes ago, Lanaya said:

That's my whole point...Who had the foresight of designing a flying ship? Were fabrials having a great boom during Gavilar's reign? I actually stopped responding to you specifically on a  previous thread because you offer no counter arguments and literally said "I don't agree with your statement". If you actually want to offer input instead of just saying "I don't agree", i will respond but so far I haven't seen much.

Don't recall "speaking" to you before. But assuming that was near the end of a thread where i was tired of repeating myself. And at some point you just need to agree to disagree with people.

With regard to Gavilar, my original point to the OP was Navani didnt discover "anti-light" when Gavilar had it 8 years earlier. We don't know how he had it, but he still had it. And fact is a rediscovery is not the same as a discovery and that was all i was saying.

People point to Navani bringing scholars together as her unifying people, when being a patron to anything is a far cry from actually bringing people together, she wasnt bridging a divide, or anything like that. 

[Lanaya]

9 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

I remember very clearly he tells Dalinar that he had to 'choose a bondsmith." It is a line that stuck in my head (mostly because the way I imagine his voice when saying that line is really smooth and nice. I really like the Stormfather, every line he says is perfect.)

 

Tone down the snark. he has provided a counter, and you haven't exactly been here long.

And your point has nothing to do with unifying. I get Navani has done incredible things, but very few of them have anything to do with unifying people. Kaladin had to get a crew that hated itself to work together and think of themselves like family, which is a good example of unifying. Designing a flying ship shows her skills as a scholar and fabrailtion (I'm so sorry for butchering that word), not as a unifier. 

 

Doesnt matter how long I've been here...besides you and maybe a couple of others, the replies I've gotten so far are "NOPE I DONT AGREE" while I am writing so many points to make my argument. So you can understand the frustration kolo? I get your point of Kaladin unifying people that are close to ending their life but is that the only measure of unification now? So the manager at any workplace shouldn't get credit for doing a good job since he is just managing like minded people?

Anyways I don't have much more to say on this topic. Sorry if I disrespected anyone but we can agree to disagree at this point.

[therunner]

Argument could also be made that where Dalinar united people (after bonding Stormfather), Navani will now move towards uniting people and spren, and hypothetical third Nightwatcher Bondsmith will unite SIngers and humans (Cultivation wants to shield Nightwatcher from influence of humans if I remember correctly). Current Fabrials could be considered to be very crude step on that path, in making use of non-Radiant spren for some purposes, and if Navani will listen to Sibling's concerns, they might find a way to make more humane fabrials, aligning spren and humans.

Edited April 8, 2021 by therunner

[Aspiring Writer]

14 minutes ago, Lanaya said:

Doesnt matter how long I've been here...besides you and maybe a couple of others, the replies I've gotten so far are "NOPE I DONT AGREE" while I am writing so many points to make my argument. So you can understand the frustration kolo? I get your point of Kaladin unifying people that are close to ending their life but is that the only measure of unification now? So the manager at any workplace shouldn't get credit for doing a good job since he is just managing like minded people?

Anyways I don't have much more to say on this topic. Sorry if I disrespected anyone but we can agree to disagree at this point.

you know, you can't just say we don't make arguments when many of us have been making points or countering points and then say sorry if you were disrespectful? That's like saying you're an idiot and than apologizing if you insulted anyone. There is no if, and the apology is pretty meaningless.

Also, yes your time here matters, you've had twelve posts here and you've already assumed someone's character, and seeing as you just dumbed down several people's character's to "NOPE I DONT AGREE", you don't seem like a very reliable source for that.

Edit: *facepalm* Okay. I'm an idiot. I read that very wrong. You meant besides me and a few others, those are the arguments you have heard. I read it as 'besides,' an in you were referring to us, not excluding us. Yes, I can understand that frustration.

 Very sorry for the misunderstanding. I do hold that you haven't been here long enough to assume his character, but the rest was uncalled for and wrong. 

Edited April 8, 2021 by Aspiring Writer

[Infinity Sliver]

31 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

I remember very clearly he tells Dalinar that he had to 'choose a bondsmith." It is a line that stuck in my head (mostly because the way I imagine his voice when saying that line is really smooth and nice. I really like the Stormfather, every line he says is perfect.)

 

 

 

Really? Damn,for some reason I was very sure SF was just told to show visions to people who could benefit from them

[Andy92]

Honestly Dalinar probably wouldn’t be a Bondsmith either if he wasn’t explicitly given visions and told “unite them.” He was kind of hand picked for the role. I feel like he’s held to a lower expectation because of this. 

The Blackthorn maybe unified through fear but I wouldn’t call that true unity. 

[Ainurromen]

Hi, scholar here. I'm a post-doctoral researcher working in a university research group. Just wanted to chime in about the Navani is/isn't a scholar topic.

Navani is absolutely a scholar. She saw a physical phenomenon, developed a theory and designed experiments to prove her theory. Not all discoveries start from nothing: as someone mentioned already, the person who discovered a way to create fire that wasn't "wait for the next lightning storm next to a tree and then hope you're lucky enough that a lightning is going to strike that tree and set it on fire" deserves all credit. Gravity was observed before a law was postulated. Also, the fact that originally she used to be a patron more than a scholar herself doesn't mean she isn't one. When I was working towards getting my PhD degree I was working under the supervision of the head of my group, who wasn't doing any research himself because all of his time was taken by supervising, looking for new funding, managing the group and get a bunch of completely different people to work together (honestly, the more I talk to him, the more in awe I am at what he does). I would have never grown into a real researcher without the help of, the supervision and the discussions with my supervisor. I would have never got where I got without him and my research and my discoveries are definitely his too. And I want to also point out that (and I am talking from experience here), managing a group of researchers takes much more than leadership skills, it takes a researcher with leadership skills.

As for Gavilar already having an anti-voidlight sphere. You're all assuming someone in his group created it, who is to say he didn't get it from someone else like Venli got the sphere with Ulim from Axindweth? To be honest, that seems the most logical explanation to me. The Sons of Honor didn't seem to be a group full of scholars.

As for whether she's worthy or not of being a Bondsmith, I haven't made up my mind yet (finished RoW last night, still processing), but I do agree that there are so many who have grown into their ideals instead of having them as a starting point. I mean, look at Venli: she wasn't worth being a knight radiant when she found Timbre and look at all the squires. Some of them became radiants only because they were at the right place at the right time.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Ainurromen

[Aspiring Writer]

43 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

Honestly Dalinar probably wouldn’t be a Bondsmith either if he wasn’t explicitly given visions and told “unite them.” He was kind of hand picked for the role. I feel like he’s held to a lower expectation because of this. 

The Blackthorn maybe unified through fear but I wouldn’t call that true unity. 

The Stormfather has... an odd view on unity. It was said I think by BS that he would see genociding a nation for breaking an oath as 'ok'. Uniting a nation through war is definitely something the Stormfather would be fine it. Hell, his first pick was Gavilar.

And we don't know if he got the visions before that ambition. he was already reading the Ways of Kings and trying to follow the codes when he arrived at the shattered plains, now memory wiped. He could've been wanting unity already (Which is something he would want as he wouldn't want his brother's kingdom to fall after his death) and then the Stormfather decided to start showing him visions, which would only motivate him further. 

18 minutes ago, Ainurromen said:

As for whether she's worthy or not of being a Bondsmith, I haven't made up my mind yet (finished RoW last night, still processing), but I do agree that there are so many who have grown into their ideals instead of having them as a starting point. I mean, look at Venli: she wasn't worth being a knight radiant when she found Timbre and look at all the squires. Some of them became radiants only because they were at the right place at the right time.

I see your point, but many of those Spren saw potential in those they chose, Timbre saw that Venli could move past her selfish ways, but the Sibling did NOT think that about Navani. It took dying to make her bond Navani, and even then she was hesitant. 

[Infinity Sliver]

1 hour ago, Aspiring Writer said:

 

And we don't know if he got the visions before that ambition. he was already reading the Ways of Kings and trying to follow the codes when he arrived at the shattered plains, now memory wiped. He could've been wanting unity already (Which is something he would want as he wouldn't want his brother's kingdom to fall after his death) and then the Stormfather decided to start showing him visions, which would only motivate him further. 

Ok,so that means this was a new thing for Dalinar. But what about Navani? She was always a scholar,one of the few people who appeased guests anytime Gavilar was galavanting somewhere,didnt start off as a tyrant. Cause it seems like she has a better starting baseline than Dalinar

 

1 hour ago, Aspiring Writer said:

I see your point, but many of those Spren saw potential in those they chose, Timbre saw that Venli could move past her selfish ways, but the Sibling did NOT think that about Navani. It took dying to make her bond Navani, and even then she was hesitant. 

So was the Stormfather no? Even though,as you guys said,He was told to find a Bondsmith,he was still hesitant to bond Dalinar.

1 hour ago, Ainurromen said:

Navani is absolutely a scholar. She saw a physical phenomenon, developed a theory and designed experiments to prove her theory. Not all discoveries start from nothing: as someone mentioned already, the person who discovered a way to create fire that wasn't "wait for the next lightning storm next to a tree and then hope you're lucky enough that a lightning is going to strike that tree and set it on fire" deserves all credit. Gravity was observed before a law was postulated. And I want to also point out that (and I am talking from experience here), managing a group of researchers takes much more than leadership skills, it takes a researcher with leadership skills.

This is exactly what i meant,better stated tbh. She noticed a phenomena that wasnt observed before and correctly came up with an explanation for it,repeated the event and brought forth anti light,a feat another scholar,who has lived for thousands of years said she has never seen and then said Navani was a scholar. It doesnt matter that anti light was known to a select few,she was able to make it from scratch with no released knowledge of it

1 hour ago, Ainurromen said:

As for whether she's worthy or not of being a Bondsmith, I haven't made up my mind yet (finished RoW last night, still processing), but I do agree that there are so many who have grown into their ideals instead of having them as a starting point. I mean, look at Venli: she wasn't worth being a knight radiant when she found Timbre and look at all the squires. Some of them became radiants only because they were at the right place at the right time.

Exactly! Teft and Elhokar(RIP),Venli,Dalinar. Honestly,so far the people who we have read it who seemed to deserve bonds from the beginning(IMO) are Kaladin and Tien. Maybe Shallan

[Bejarden]

15 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

This is exactly what i meant,better stated tbh. She noticed a phenomena that wasnt observed before and correctly came up with an explanation for it,repeated the event and brought forth anti light,a feat another scholar,who has lived for thousands of years said she has never seen and then said Navani was a scholar. It doesnt matter that anti light was known to a select few,she was able to make it from scratch with no released knowledge of it

She knew it was possible and had seen blue print of it.

She also got the whole idea from reading destructive interference which was the hardest part of the whole process

I am going to say that my problem with Navani is not that she isn’t a scholar but that she hasn’t changed one iota in 3 years.

In WoK she is still organizing and creating fabrials. She doesn’t come to a compromise with the Sibling she sweet talks them in a moment of their desperation.

19 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

 

As for whether she's worthy or not of being a Bondsmith, I haven't made up my mind yet (finished RoW last night, still processing), but I do agree that there are so many who have grown into their ideals instead of having them as a starting point. I mean, look at Venli: she wasn't worth being a knight radiant when she found Timbre and look at all the squires. Some of them became radiants only because they were at the right place at the right time.

So it doesn’t matter if their worthy according to you. Because of the possible event of them changing?

I believe that this is a discussion if she is worthy now not later

[Andy92]

1 hour ago, Aspiring Writer said:

The Stormfather has... an odd view on unity. It was said I think by BS that he would see genociding a nation for breaking an oath as 'ok'. Uniting a nation through war is definitely something the Stormfather would be fine it. Hell, his first pick was Gavilar.

And we don't know if he got the visions before that ambition. he was already reading the Ways of Kings and trying to follow the codes when he arrived at the shattered plains, now memory wiped. He could've been wanting unity already (Which is something he would want as he wouldn't want his brother's kingdom to fall after his death) and then the Stormfather decided to start showing him visions, which would only motivate him further. 

And I really like Dalinar’s journey from the beginning through Oathbringer. I think he’s easily become a worthy Bondsmith, but I also think Navani has been a strong character. The moment that sticks out the most to me for Navani was how she held everything together in Urithiru when Dalinar’s memory flooded back to him. He locked himself away and couldn’t function once he remember what he’d done to Evi, and Navani was the one who saved the coalition from collapse during that moment. 

I remember reading tons of “Navani will bond The Sibling” theories post OB, and now that she has, it’s like a bunch of people think it wasn’t foreshadowed any lol 

[Aspiring Writer]

45 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

Ok,so that means this was a new thing for Dalinar. But what about Navani? She was always a scholar,one of the few people who appeased guests anytime Gavilar was galavanting somewhere,didnt start off as a tyrant. Cause it seems like she has a better starting baseline than Dalinar

One, the stormfather seems very fine with tyrants, and that is irrelevant. Dalinar had an interest in uniting people. Navani does not. The people they were before they started the oaths does not matter to spren, that's part of what the oaths are for.

 

47 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

So was the Stormfather no? Even though,as you guys said,He was told to find a Bondsmith,he was still hesitant to bond Dalinar.

The context of the two are pretty different. One is the slight immoral implications, where the Sibling had other preferences to Navani but ended up being forced to choose her while the Stormfather could choose anyone he wanted and chose Dalinar. Second is the Stormfather was begrudging, not hesitant. He didn't want to bond anyone but would out of respect for Honor, and so chose him. the Sibling also didn't want to bond anyone, but esspically didn't want to bond Navani, seeing as when they were dying, she called for Rlain, not Navani.

[Frustration]

54 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

Exactly! Teft and Elhokar(RIP),Venli,Dalinar. Honestly,so far the people who we have read it who seemed to deserve bonds from the beginning(IMO) are Kaladin and Tien. Maybe Shallan

Dalinar was already on the path to Uniting Navani wasn't and Bonsmiths MUST be held to a high degree of responsibility, especially with Honor dead.

32 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

I remember reading tons of “Navani will bond The Sibling” theories post OB, and now that she has, it’s like a bunch of people think it wasn’t foreshadowed any lol 

That doesn't prove anything, the only evidence they had was Navani likes fabrials, Urithiru is a fabrial, perfect match. That's not foreshadowing.

[Infinity Sliver]

44 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

She knew it was possible and had seen blue print of it.

She also got the whole idea from reading destructive interference which was the hardest part of the whole process

I am going to say that my problem with Navani is not that she isn’t a scholar but that she hasn’t changed one iota in 3 years.

In WoK she is still organizing and creating fabrials. She doesn’t come to a compromise with the Sibling she sweet talks them in a moment of their desperation.

 

Where did she see the blueprint for Anti-light? 

Why should she have changed in the last 3 years? Why does it matter? She wasnt a major character no?

And they were both desperate. To people saying Navani wasnt worthy,do you remember why the Sibling said she wasnt? only because Navani captures spren. That is literally the only reason.

13 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

One, the stormfather seems very fine with tyrants, and that is irrelevant. Dalinar had an interest in uniting people. Navani does not. The people they were before they started the oaths does not matter to spren, that's part of what the oaths are for.

But does that mean all the Bondsmith spren are all the same? 

"Bondsmith oaths are focused on unity, unification, and bringing others together. However, this is a loose theme, as there are so few Bondsmiths - and the three sources of their powers are so different in personality - that the oaths can end up taking a variety of different shapes, depending on the situation.

Anyone can become a Bondsmith, subject to persuading one of the three spren who grant Bondsmith powers. Those powers tend to work differently for one Bondsmith than another, and even those Surges they share with other orders tend to work differently for Bondsmiths."

She bonded a Bondsmith spren whose only reason for her not been worthy was because Navani captures spren.

13 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

The context of the two are pretty different. One is the slight immoral implications, where the Sibling had other preferences to Navani but ended up being forced to choose her while the Stormfather could choose anyone he wanted and chose Dalinar. Second is the Stormfather was begrudging, not hesitant. He didn't want to bond anyone but would out of respect for Honor, and so chose him. the Sibling also didn't want to bond anyone, but esspically didn't want to bond Navani, seeing as when they were dying, she called for Rlain, not Navani.

Begrudging is a synonym for been hesitant

Edited April 8, 2021 by Infinitysliver

[Infinity Sliver]

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Dalinar was already on the path to Uniting Navani wasn't and Bonsmiths MUST be held to a high degree of responsibility, especially with Honor dead.

And Navani wont be held up to a high degree of responsibility? The only evidence i can think of that she wouldnt be responsible was how she was kinda careless with the whole anti-light and playing Raboniel thing. But do i think she can rise and be more responsible? Absolutely,she had 2 kings for husbands,her son was a king,her daughter is now Queen,plus she has a Bondsmith spren that will basically force her to somehow find a way to stop tinkering with fabrials,absolutely can she be responsible

[Frustration]

Just now, Infinitysliver said:

And Navani wont be held up to a high degree of responsibility? The only evidence i can think of that she wouldnt be responsible was how she was kinda careless with the whole anti-light and playing Raboniel thing. But do i think she can rise and be more responsible? Absolutely,she had 2 kings for husbands,her son was a king,her daughter is now Queen,plus she has a Bondsmith spren that will basically force her to somehow find a way to stop tinkering with fabrials,absolutely can she be responsible

Tell me something,

Is RoW a story where Navani asks herself "can I do this?" or "should I do this?" ?

[Bejarden]

3 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

Where did she see the blueprint for Anti-light? 

Why should she have changed in the last 3 years? Why does it matter? She wasnt a major character no?

And they were both desperate. To people saying Navani wasnt worthy,do you remember why the Sibling said she wasnt? only because Navani captures spren. That is literally the only reason.

She had Gavilars sphere in her memory and knew what she was looking for and that it was possible and plausible.

She did not grow to any challenge and this is my personal opinion so it’s fine if you disagree 

It’s a pretty big deal if a person enslaves something you perceive as alive in a small box forever.

Being unworthy has nothing to do with the Sibling perception because if it did then there would be no conversation.

Its our perception is what matters and those who have argued against Navani have brought a whole lot of evidence, if you don’t agree with that it’s fine.

[Infinity Sliver]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Tell me something,

Is RoW a story where Navani asks herself "can I do this?" or "should I do this?" ?

I think it's both no? 

[Frustration]

Just now, Infinitysliver said:

I think it's both no? 

When did she ask herself "Should I do this?"

[Infinity Sliver]

2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

She had Gavilars sphere in her memory and knew what she was looking for and that it was possible and plausible.

She did not grow to any challenge and this is my personal opinion so it’s fine if you disagree 

It’s a pretty big deal if a person enslaves something you perceive as alive in a small box forever.

Being unworthy has nothing to do with the Sibling perception because if it did then there would be no conversation.

Its our perception is what matters and those who have argued against Navani have brought a whole lot of evidence, if you don’t agree with that it’s fine.

Wasnt it Gavilar's sphere that exploded? she didnt know what it was,she knew what happened,worked backwards to find out why it happened,and then recreated it. That wasnt a blueprint for anything. Honestly,just imagine in world where you and a thousand year old scientist create something and then that scientist says you are an amazing scientist and then some people are like,no you arent. Even though you had the acumen for it as well

 

[Infinity Sliver]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

When did she ask herself "Should I do this?"

wasnt she conflicted on if she should continue the anti-light research knowing how dangerous it was? i seem to remember that. 

Either way,why does it matter? 

[Frustration]

Just now, Infinitysliver said:

wasnt she conflicted on if she should continue the anti-light research knowing how dangerous it was? i seem to remember that. 

Either way,why does it matter? 

Not really no.

As for why it matters, you understand what a bondsmith is capable of right?

[Bejarden]

No. She willingly makes the most dangerous substance in the Cosmere knowing that it would help the enemy.

She didn’t wait to be freed, she handed into Raboniels hand.

All she did was try halfheartedly to hide it on her desk in plain view.

This resulted in the death of 2 slivers of a Shard and will make hundreds more possible even as the war is coming to the end and Dalinar has found an agreement.

2 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

Wasnt it Gavilar's sphere that exploded? she didnt know what it was,she knew what happened,worked backwards to find out why it happened,and then recreated it. That wasnt a blueprint for anything. Honestly,just imagine in world where you and a thousand year old scientist create something and then that scientist says you are an amazing scientist and then some people are like,no you arent. Even though you had the acumen for it as well

 

She knew exactly what it looked like and that it was a very possible thing to create.

I dont  care about how Navani would have her feelings hurt by the truth

Edit: Please stop double posting just edit your last post

Spoiler

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Bejardin1250

[Infinity Sliver]

Just now, Frustration said:

Not really no.

As for why it matters, you understand what a bondsmith is capable of right?

really? memory fails again

And yea i do,and so why does that preclude her from been able to responsibly harness such powers or realize the scope and act accordingly?